US 93 In Arizona Progress

[Max Rockatansky]

AZ 74 may be a "freeway corridor," but nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to get upgraded beyond a 4-lane expressway, if that.  Most of the bottleneck (at least the last time I drove on it) was around Lake Pleasant.  Besides, to extend 74 to the (now official, AFAIK) I-11 corridor would require the RV park at the 60/74 intersection to be purchased and demolished.  Lotsa luck there.

Running I-11 over to I-17 would be less useful, because there is no likely future extension beyond that point. Where would it go? To the Beeline Highway? Extending it south to I-10 would likely be followed up with an extension to I-8, which would be a useful Phoenix bypass. Not every truck coming from Vegas is going to the Phoenix area.

Here's the thing though, much of those freight corridor out of Las Vegas going elsewhere don't necessarily need even get close to Phoenix.  Much of the freight traffic heading south out of the Vegas towards the border uses US 95, CA 62, AZ 95 Truck, AZ 95 and US 95 due to somewhat gentle gradient.  For sun belt states east of Arizona likely following US 93 and I-40 towards New Mexico is going to a better way to go than attempting to pass through Phoenix to get to I-10.

Also, I'm not arguing there is some sort of utility of in a continuation of the semi-bypass functionality that AZ 85 already has for the Phoenix area.  Does that corridor necessarily have to be I-11 though?  I-11 was branded as the Phoenix-Las Vegas Interstate, having it bypass Phoenix doesn't serve that function.  I get the theory is "if you built they will come"  with the freight but that doesn't necessarily need to have a non-chargeable Interstate shield slapped to that. 

[vdeane]

AZ 74 may be a "freeway corridor," but nobody is holding their breath waiting for it to get upgraded beyond a 4-lane expressway, if that.  Most of the bottleneck (at least the last time I drove on it) was around Lake Pleasant.  Besides, to extend 74 to the (now official, AFAIK) I-11 corridor would require the RV park at the 60/74 intersection to be purchased and demolished.  Lotsa luck there.

Running I-11 over to I-17 would be less useful, because there is no likely future extension beyond that point. Where would it go? To the Beeline Highway? Extending it south to I-10 would likely be followed up with an extension to I-8, which would be a useful Phoenix bypass. Not every truck coming from Vegas is going to the Phoenix area.

Why would it need to go anywhere?  I-11 was sold as the Vegas-Phoenix interstate, not the Vegas-Nogales interstate.  I-19 already goes to Nogales.  I can see value in having a Phoenix bypass for thru traffic, but that could just as easily be a 3di, if Arizona could get over its aversion to them (it's not like I'm proposing to make every freeway in Phoenix an interstate for the sake of it or anything; such would form a logical backbone in combination with I-10 and I-17 for traffic going to/from/through/around Phoenix).

[pderocco]

Why would it need to go anywhere?  I-11 was sold as the Vegas-Phoenix interstate, not the Vegas-Nogales interstate.  I-19 already goes to Nogales.  I can see value in having a Phoenix bypass for thru traffic, but that could just as easily be a 3di, if Arizona could get over its aversion to them (it's not like I'm proposing to make every freeway in Phoenix an interstate for the sake of it or anything; such would form a logical backbone in combination with I-10 and I-17 for traffic going to/from/through/around Phoenix).

Doesn't really matter what it was "sold as". It's not as though they've already appropriated the billions of dollars to build I-11, and people would be pissed off if it didn't go where they thought it would go.

It's clear that it's never going to go to downtown Phoenix along the US-60 corridor, nor is anyone dreaming of that. It could easily go to 303, and maybe 101. But either way, it would be a dangling 2di. To avoid that, I suppose 303 could be turned into a 3di, but ending a 2di at a 3di is uncommon too. Or, it could go to I-17 or I-10. But my narrow point was only that, of the two, I-10 would be more useful, as it could continue to I-8.

[brad2971]

For quite some time the US has been decommissioning far more miles of existing railroad than doing upgrades, much less building anything new. That rail line next to US-60 is not a nothing type route. But it sure isn't remotely on par with the Southern Transcon either. With the way the rail industry is going I expect to see many thousands more miles of track get decommissioned and ripped out of the ground. I figure it's only a matter of time before the one rail line we have left in my town gets removed.

Regarding Circle City, there is enough space to build a freeway there along the existing alignment. It doesn't necessarily need frontage roads. Two intersections there have streets bowing out away from the highway seemingly to make room for ramps. The main lanes of US-60 can be built closer to the rail line too. Check out how closely I-40 in downtown OKC was re-built alongside an existing rail line.

If BNSF can repurchase the O'Neill (NE) to Sioux City line 16 years after giving it to a short-line carrier, and if BNSF can take over Montana Rail Link's lines, they will very likely retain that connection from the Transcon to Phoenix. And very likely keep the line running through your town (if BNSF is the railroad in your town). Which means putting in a parallel I-11 from Wickenburg to Loop 303 is likely out of the question. Which means the best option for ADOT remains running I-11 through Teravalis to I-10, then widening I-10 to 6 lanes from that point to SR 85.

[Sonic99]

I'll just note here as someone who lives a mile away from the current BNSF yard next to Grand in Surprise, getting any kind of Interstate inside the 303 loop is never going to happen in a bazillion years. Development is packed up to the edge of the road on the Grand side, and up next to the BNSF tracks on the Sun City West side. Even outside the 303 loop, development is happening FAST and any build needs to have the ROW protected immediately. Since that's seemingly on nobody's radar, it's not gonna happen. Alsosince someone brought up the possibility of tracks being deleted, BNSF has announced plans for yet another large transit yard a few miles out from the 303, somewhere around Morristown IIRC. BNSF seems to be looking at that line and thinking the polar opposite of any type of "removal" of their trackage. Again, if there's ANY movement of BNSF tracks to accommodate future freeway ROW, it has to happen NOW or else it never will. I personally feel like the only way I-11 is getting to the "Phoenix metro" is the proposed route west of the White Tanks. It certainly would be very helpful if ADOT worked on the Grand/US 60 corridor and expanded it towards Wickenburg, but I think the hope of the Wickenburg/Phoenix portion of I-11 along US 60 is completely dead.

[Bobby5280]

I don't think anyone here is seriously proposing an Interstate be built on Grand Avenue inside the 303 loop.

Regarding the BNSF line parallel to US-60, even if they added a second track alongside the existing single track line and built the second pair of rails inboard closer to US-60 there would still be enough room for freeway main lanes and frontage roads. In Morristown the rail line is positioned even farther away from US-60.

I just don't see how there should be any big challenge converting US-60 to Interstate standards from outside Wickenburg down to the interchange with AZ-303.

[Konza]

As an Arizona resident I'll offer the opinion that if I-11 were to find its way to the I-10/AZ 85 interchange it would be just fine with me.  If Chicago can be used as a control city on I-80, then Phoenix can be used as a control city on I-11.  It would make sense for the spur route into central Phoenix (on the current US 60 alignment) to have a route number derived from I-11, whether it be a state or Interstate route.

I would be OK with I-11 extending south to I-8 via the AZ 85 corridor.  This would create an all-Interstate bypass pf metropolitan Phoenix (as, of course, would hanging an Interstate shield on AZ 85 between I-8 and I-10).  If it ever made sense from a capacity standpoint, I-11 could be extended south to the international border at Lukeville.

I do not think there is a need for parallel Interstate routes between Casa Grande to Nogales.  Widen I-8, I-10, and I-19.  A western (or eastern, for that matter) bypass of Tucson would be nice, but Tucson is freeway-averse, and the path to getting it built will face hurdle after hurdle.

[Bobby5280]

I've lived in Arizona before yet I still believe the currently proposed I-11 path is wasteful stupidity. It would be a government handout to real estate speculators.

As an Arizona resident I'll offer the opinion that if I-11 were to find its way to the I-10/AZ 85 interchange it would be just fine with me.

I-11 wouldn't be built to the I-10/AZ-85 interchange. It would be built down to I-10 even farther west of that interchange -way out in the middle of nowhere. The White Tank Mountains (and some existing development West of it) is an obstacle to connecting I-11 directly into AZ-85.

If Chicago can be used as a control city on I-80, then Phoenix can be used as a control city on I-11.

I-80 might not technically cross into Chicago city limits, but it crosses the Southern suburbs of Chicagoland within about 6 miles of the city limits border. Basically it goes well into very developed parts of the Chicago metro. This proposal for I-11 does NOT get into any developed areas of the Phoenix metro at all. It only crosses through land where some real estate developers may or may not build thousands of new homes.

New arrivals to the Phoenix area are having to find out the hard way about water conservation (green lawns getting banned in many places, restrictions put on swimming pools, etc). This coming week the actual air temperatures (not heat index) is supposed to be well above 110°F. Some of those areas West of Phoenix get even hotter. Yeah, I totally so want to buy some over-priced real estate out there.

I do not think there is a need for parallel Interstate routes between Casa Grande to Nogales.

Most people would agree on that. I don't even know how they would manage to get the parallel route through the Tucson area considering how that city has a hatred for freeways but seems to love row after row after row of traffic signals. I'm not even sure I-19 needs much widening. Far more commerce from Mexico enters the US in Texas.

[FightingIrish]

As an Arizona resident I'll offer the opinion that if I-11 were to find its way to the I-10/AZ 85 interchange it would be just fine with me.  If Chicago can be used as a control city on I-80, then Phoenix can be used as a control city on I-11.  It would make sense for the spur route into central Phoenix (on the current US 60 alignment) to have a route number derived from I-11, whether it be a state or Interstate route.

I would be OK with I-11 extending south to I-8 via the AZ 85 corridor.  This would create an all-Interstate bypass pf metropolitan Phoenix (as, of course, would hanging an Interstate shield on AZ 85 between I-8 and I-10).  If it ever made sense from a capacity standpoint, I-11 could be extended south to the international border at Lukeville.

I do not think there is a need for parallel Interstate routes between Casa Grande to Nogales.  Widen I-8, I-10, and I-19.  A western (or eastern, for that matter) bypass of Tucson would be nice, but Tucson is freeway-averse, and the path to getting it built will face hurdle after hurdle.

I-11 from a point north of Wickenburg, south to I-10, east for a few miles along I-10 (to avoid the White Mountains, etc.), south along AZ 85 to a newly built terminus at I-8 in Gila Bend makes the most sense. This isn't the 1950s anymore, where interstate highways HAVE to go downtown. Besides, does the central part of the metro really NEED more traffic congestion?

The Buckeye exit currently sits 12 miles from 303, 22 miles from 101, and about 30 miles from I-17. Not far at all for people traveling directly between the city centers of Phoenix and Las Vegas.

Besides, AZ 85 to I-8 is intended as a southern bypass of I-10. I-11 would work great as a part of this scenario, plus as a connector to I-8 WB to Yuma, San Diego, etc.

However, the way I see it, I-8 in Gila Bend would be the southern terminus of I-11. No eastbound duplex of I-8/11 to I-10 to wrap around Tucson or whatever goofy idea they have, and absolutely NO duplex along I-19 to Nogales! I think truckers are smart enough to know how to take multiple routes to reach their destinations.

[Bobby5280]

This isn't the 1950s anymore, where interstate highways HAVE to go downtown.

Who the hell is saying I-11 has to go into downtown Phoenix? Or is this just a strawman you have talking?

The US-60/AZ-303 interchange is NOT in downtown Phoenix or even near it. But that location is at least into the actual metro area. That crap out past the White Tanks is not. It's way the hell out of the way. If I-11 is actually built to go way out past Buckeye I can guarantee the vast majority of traffic moving between Vegas and Phoenix will get off I-11 in Wickenburg and continue along US-60.

Besides, AZ 85 to I-8 is intended as a southern bypass of I-10.

AZ-85 between I-10 and I-8 was built as a route for traffic from Phoenix going to San Diego.

[pderocco]

AZ-85 between I-10 and I-8 was built as a route for traffic from Phoenix going to San Diego.

I wonder if AZDOT has data on that. Truckers going from CA across the southern states probably use it to bypass Phoenix. Indeed, ag shippers from the San Joaquin Valley generally prefer I-40 to I-10 due to traffic, especially now that CA-58 is four lanes divided from Bakersfield to Barstow, so they might prefer an I-11 from Kingman to Buckeye.

[DJStephens]

This isn't the 1950s anymore, where interstate highways HAVE to go downtown.

Who the hell is saying I-11 has to go into downtown Phoenix? Or is this just a strawman you have talking?

The US-60/AZ-303 interchange is NOT in downtown Phoenix or even near it. But that location is at least into the actual metro area. That crap out past the White Tanks is not. It's way the hell out of the way. If I-11 is actually built to go way out past Buckeye I can guarantee the vast majority of traffic moving between Vegas and Phoenix will get off I-11 in Wickenburg and continue along US-60.

Besides, AZ 85 to I-8 is intended as a southern bypass of I-10.

AZ-85 between I-10 and I-8 was built as a route for traffic from Phoenix going to San Diego.

Believe the "original" idea was to improve Grand Avenue from I-17 westward towards Wickenburg.  As part of the early - mid eighties discussions leading to the 1985 bond/sales tax issue.   Some improvements have been made, to difficult six way intersections.   But am of opinion most do not meet Interstate design guidelines.   

[Bobby5280]

Grand Avenue inside the 303 loop is a lost cause. The random grade separations with some crossing streets is about the only thing that can be done.

If the rail line was somehow relocated it might be possible to convert US-60 to a freeway from Loop 303 to Loop 101. But that would require some elevated structures and very tight slip ramps. It's a scenario that's probably not worth pursuing ever.

[Konza]

AZ-85 between I-10 and I-8 was built as a route for traffic from Phoenix going to San Diego.

A couple of thoughts here:

Most of AZ 85 between I-10 and I-8 was originally US 80, so, of course, it was built for traffic from Phoenix to Yuma, and, yes, eventually, San Diego.

The big green signs on westbound I-10 just before the intersection with I-8 near Casa Grande promote I-8/AZ 85 as a "Phoenix Bypass Route". I'll assume there are similar signs on eastbound I-10 just west if the AZ 85 interchange.  That may not be why AZ 85 was built, but it is certainly the reason it remains in the state highway system and has been improved to its current configuration.

[pderocco]

I note that Google Maps labels AZ-85 and the eastern part of I-8 as the "Phoenix Bypass Route", and it is signed as such on I-10 at both ends. However, I found some AADT data online, and it shows that the traffic on I-8 west of Gila Bend is quite a bit higher than east of Gila Bend, about 14.5K at Citrus Valley Rd vs 6.7K at Freeman Rd (in 2021). So that suggests that AZ-85 is being used more for going to Phoenix than for bypassing Phoenix, by over 2-to-1. (I'm assuming no one ever goes to Ajo. I did once, and that was enough.)

[Max Rockatansky]

Ajo is weird enough that I thought it was interesting.  Then again, how many semi-remote desert mining towns are there nowadays?  Globe/Miami/Superior far more civilized and nominally more temperate due to higher elevations.

In practical purpose, I used AZ 85 south of I-8 to go hiking out at Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument.  On occasion I would go that way to hit the border en route to Rocky Point.  I suspect those who live in Why had a sense of where they lived when the state ordered the community name be lengthened to three letters.

[ethanhopkin14]

Globe/Miami/Superior far more civilized and nominally more temperate due to higher elevations.

Very cosmopolitan.

[Max Rockatansky]

Call me a sucker for the aesthetic the Superior/Miami/Globe corridor.  I loved working out in that area, it had way much more going on than Ajo ever did.  The Burger House on US 60 alone in Miami was worth the day trip.

[ztonyg]

I note that Google Maps labels AZ-85 and the eastern part of I-8 as the "Phoenix Bypass Route", and it is signed as such on I-10 at both ends. However, I found some AADT data online, and it shows that the traffic on I-8 west of Gila Bend is quite a bit higher than east of Gila Bend, about 14.5K at Citrus Valley Rd vs 6.7K at Freeman Rd (in 2021). So that suggests that AZ-85 is being used more for going to Phoenix than for bypassing Phoenix, by over 2-to-1. (I'm assuming no one ever goes to Ajo. I did once, and that was enough.)

AZ 85 north of I-8 really should be AZ's first 3di (I-208). It's the most direct route between the Phoenix area and Yuma / San Diego and carries a lot of that traffic (including truck traffic from all of the distribution facilities in the western part of the Phoenix metro area. I know there are plans to update the first few miles (from I-10 to future AZ 30 at MC 85) but the whole thing should've been an interstate (similar to I-505 in California). 

[The Ghostbuster]

Forget about making AZ 85 a 3-digit Interstate. Arizona seems allergic to 3dis, given that there was once a 410 and a 510 (both occupied a half-mile segment of what is now part of Interstate 10). There was a proposed Interstate 710 in Tucson that wasn't constructed. Most highways constructed in Arizona after the Interstate System are state highways, so the only Interstates I expect to see are the existing ones and future Interstate 11.

[KEK Inc.]

Having driven both AZ-85 and US-93 recently, I think it's a long away away for them to be upgraded.  Lots of work has to be done to make a bypass to Kingman and Gila Bend. 

Between Kingman & the Colorado River on US-93, there were a couple of brand new traffic signals.  I don't think AZDOT is prioritizing this project.

[Max Rockatansky]

Having driven both AZ-85 and US-93 recently, I think it's a long away away for them to be upgraded.  Lots of work has to be done to make a bypass to Kingman and Gila Bend. 

Between Kingman & the Colorado River on US-93, there were a couple of brand new traffic signals.  I don't think AZDOT is prioritizing this project.

Yeah I noticed those also on US 93, definitely not a step forward there.

[Plutonic Panda]

What gets me is that ADOT seems to be prioritizing I-11 south of I-10 with the exception of the Kingman Bypass. Once that project gets completed I think the next logical step will be to upgrade that project's northern extent limits to the Nevada border to connect with the current section of I-11 through Boulder City. That would provide a nice section of I-11 through LV(once NDOT gets that finished) to I-40. At the same time ADOT does that they could find funding for the I-40 project through Kingman which will widen it to 4 lanes each way(IIRC) and upgrade the existing infrastructure where needed.

After that is done hopefully by the early 2030s they could have competed planning and studies for the alignments from I-40 to the Phoenix metro. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to see sections of that started by 2040 possibly the mid 2030s.

Once all of that is done then AZ can look at completing I-11 to the Mexico border if they really want to which doesn't make much sense to me unless they replace I-19 with I-11 which I could see.

[The Ghostbuster]

Interstate 19 of course replaced US 89 between Tucson and Nogales. There is no need to replace 19 with another Interstate designation.

[Plutonic Panda]

Isn't there branding to present I-11 as a Mexico to Canada interstate?