Channelizing right turns...fail?

[Mergingtraffic]

What is the point of having a channelized right turn if you're going to have a stoplight that coincides with the mainline stoplight? It turns green when the thru lanes turns green.

CT doesn't do channelizing right turns a lot but when they do they do it this way.  It's like they just can't let go of a traditional blah intersection.

Btw: when the light is red people treat it as a right turn on red type deal anyway.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.319522,-73.084875,3a,75y,162.86h,75.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUFTDdAjkykrm0AoxjM3YXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[Zeffy]

Philadelphia does it right:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.912352,-75.150429,3a,52.2y,227.53h,83.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sl3JsV8KSJRlM0PuxIXgxuA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Almost all of New Jersey does too, thanks to jughandles.

[Brandon]

Illinois tends to use the signal:

https://goo.gl/maps/NHBGj
https://goo.gl/maps/ia6vE

[lordsutch]

Here's an incredibly annoying example (that I traverse pretty much every day). Note the stop line doesn't actually extend into the right turn lane, but the signalized pedestrian crossing does. So do I have to stop when there's a red light? Who knows... I guess I'll find out when I inevitably get a ticket someday.

[doorknob60]

This is the ideal way in my opinion:

 

Extra room to merge/accelerate and a yield sign (no signal or stop sign).

This one in Bend always bugged me:

 

Technically, you're supposed to stop while turning right even on a green light. People don't really do it though (though I rarely turned right here to notice; if I wanted to access businesses down here I'd usually be coming from Pinebrook Blvd not Powers).

Bend is definitely capable of better. Example:

[Kacie Jane]

This one in Bend always bugged me:

 

Technically, you're supposed to stop while turning right even on a green light. People don't really do it though (though I rarely turned right here to notice; if I wanted to access businesses down here I'd usually be coming from Pinebrook Blvd not Powers).

For exactly the reason you mention, I think this is a far worse fail than the OP.  In the OP, you have to stop before turning right on a red light.  Here you have to stop before turning... no matter what???

Almost all of New Jersey does too, thanks to jughandles.

I may be misinterpreting this, but if you're counting jughandles as channelized right turns, then no, not according to my recollection. This was the second one I looked at, with a stop sign for right turns like above.  Little to no reason for right-turning traffic to stop if thru traffic on Ryan/Symmes has a red.

[cl94]

Very simple reason why channelized turns would be used if signals are still used: truck turning radius. Channelized turns can allow a truck to turn without blocking adjacent lanes.

[roadfro]

Very simple reason why channelized turns would be used if signals are still used: truck turning radius. Channelized turns can allow a truck to turn without blocking adjacent lanes.

But the question is really the other way around: If a channelized right turn is used, why use a signal to control it?

A truck can still not block adjacent lanes when a yield sign is used instead of a signal (of course it depends on the design of the channelized turn, but this applies regardless of the traffic control used for said turn).

[Mergingtraffic]

What is the point of having a channelized right turn if you're going to have a stoplight that coincides with the mainline stoplight? It turns green when the thru lanes turns green.

CT doesn't do channelizing right turns a lot but when they do they do it this way.  It's like they just can't let go of a traditional blah intersection.

Btw: when the light is red people treat it as a right turn on red type deal anyway.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.319522,-73.084875,3a,75y,162.86h,75.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUFTDdAjkykrm0AoxjM3YXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

In fact I would also think in reality you're not supposed to go through the RED at all  when making a chanelized right turn. I've seen someone get a ticket for stopping and then going through the red light. 

[roadfro]

What is the point of having a channelized right turn if you're going to have a stoplight that coincides with the mainline stoplight? It turns green when the thru lanes turns green.

CT doesn't do channelizing right turns a lot but when they do they do it this way.  It's like they just can't let go of a traditional blah intersection.

Btw: when the light is red people treat it as a right turn on red type deal anyway.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.319522,-73.084875,3a,75y,162.86h,75.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUFTDdAjkykrm0AoxjM3YXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

In fact I would also think in reality you're not supposed to go through the RED at all  when making a chanelized right turn. I've seen someone get a ticket for stopping and then going through the red light.

I would say that unless a sign or local law prohibits a right turn on red, it should be perfectly acceptable in a channelized right turn with traffic signal control, to come to a complete stop and then safely make the turn on red.

[steviep24]

This intersection in Penfield, NY has a channelized right turn with a traffic signal which I always thought was silly. Then again there are ped signals for the crosswalk in the turn lane which is also unusual. The channelized right turn lane is needed here because of the angle of the intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.153667,-77.50647,3a,75y,138.48h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJIvJFU1nlaCOVyZ18zkJmA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[empirestate]

I would say that unless a sign or local law prohibits a right turn on red, it should be perfectly acceptable in a channelized right turn with traffic signal control, to come to a complete stop and then safely make the turn on red.

Does it make a difference if the channelized right turn has its own separate signal head with a different aspect sequence than the main assembly?

Also, are there some signaled channelized right turns whose geometry suggests that passing the signal constitutes a straight-through movement rather than a turn, and thus isn't subject to right-on-red rules?

[NYhwyfan]

This intersection in Penfield, NY has a channelized right turn with a traffic signal which I always thought was silly. Then again there are ped signals for the crosswalk in the turn lane which is also unusual. The channelized right turn lane is needed here because of the angle of the intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.153667,-77.50647,3a,75y,138.48h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJIvJFU1nlaCOVyZ18zkJmA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The funny thing is that the ped signals for the crosswalk in the turn lane go to a sidewalk apron that leads no where

[vdeane]

This is the ideal way in my opinion:

 

This method has actually fallen out of favor because it encourages drivers to make the turn at high speeds and mow down pedestrians.  Tighter turns with truck aprons are the preferred method now; the best example I can think of is on the local SPUI (which does have signals due to high traffic and pedestrian signals): https://goo.gl/maps/AykO8

This intersection in Penfield, NY has a channelized right turn with a traffic signal which I always thought was silly. Then again there are ped signals for the crosswalk in the turn lane which is also unusual. The channelized right turn lane is needed here because of the angle of the intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.153667,-77.50647,3a,75y,138.48h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJIvJFU1nlaCOVyZ18zkJmA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The funny thing is that the ped signals for the crosswalk in the turn lane go to a sidewalk apron that leads no where

Well, if Region 4 ever wants to add sidewalks, they have the crosswalk.  Had the crosswalk not been built and they wanted to add sidewalk on that side of the road, they would have had to do a near total rebuild of the porkchop island to meet ADA requirements.

[cl94]

Yeah, NYSDOT is taking out channelized turns when they rebuild intersections. The intersection of US 9 and NY 254 in my hometown of Queensbury had 4 channelized right turns until the intersection and surrounding area was widened to add double lefts. In the satellite view, you can still see where the wider turns were.

Problem with channelized turns is that people often take them too fast and believe they have the right of way, leading to accidents. They might seem good on paper, but drivers are quite stupid.

[Revive 755]

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.319522,-73.084875,3a,75y,162.86h,75.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUFTDdAjkykrm0AoxjM3YXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Definitely a fail, as it runs afoul of the national edition of the MUTCD.  The MUTCD, per Item 1 of Paragraph 01 of Section 4D.14 requires 40 feet minimum between the stop bar and the signal head(s) for the movement - in this case, there should be a signal head located on the embankment between the ramp and the freeway.

This one in Bend always bugged me:

 

Wisconsin loves that design.  Sometimes there is even a white sign below the stop sign with the text 'right Turn obey this sign' or something similar.

This is the ideal way in my opinion:

 

This method has actually fallen out of favor because it encourages drivers to make the turn at high speeds and mow down pedestrians.  Tighter turns with truck aprons are the preferred method now; the best example I can think of is on the local SPUI (which does have signals due to high traffic and pedestrian signals): https://goo.gl/maps/AykO8

The larger radius design, if it does not have a decent acceleration lane, frequently has issues with rear end collisions. where the first car in line may start a turn but have to stop, and the second car, not paying enough attention, thinks the first car has completed its turn, starts to turn, and then smacks the bumper of the first car.
 

[jakeroot]

I quite like the idea of signalized slip lanes. Here's how I'd set them up:

- Signed with side-mounted signals, two near and one far
- The signal faces will show right-facing arrows, stacked as four in an FYA fashion
- Normal operation will be a flashing yellow arrow
- When a pedestrian comes, the arrow will turn to red, and the pedestrian will proceed
- When the countdown phase is complete, the light will return to flashing yellow
- Green arrow phase when perpendicular traffic has a green left arrow
- "No Turn on Red" signs would be posted for maximum pedestrian safety

The United Kingdom signalizes almost all of their slip lanes, and they work in a similar fashion (though the lights, AFAIK, go dark when there isn't a pedestrian -- someone with absolute certainty should follow up if that is incorrect).

Problem with channelized turns is that people often take them too fast and believe they have the right of way, leading to accidents. They might seem good on paper, but drivers are quite stupid.

I think this is more of a New England problem, but regardless, I think if you signalized the right turns, it might help cut down on the people just flying through them (especially if you put in some FYAs).

[vdeane]

Yeah, NYSDOT is taking out channelized turns when they rebuild intersections. The intersection of US 9 and NY 254 in my hometown of Queensbury had 4 channelized right turns until the intersection and surrounding area was widened to add double lefts. In the satellite view, you can still see where the wider turns were.

Problem with channelized turns is that people often take them too fast and believe they have the right of way, leading to accidents. They might seem good on paper, but drivers are quite stupid.

Not just NYSDOT.  The new preference comes straight from the FHWA.

[jwags]

Here's an interesting example in Southern Illinois. Last time I went through this intersection I almost drove through the red light because it is not too clear whether right turns are controlled by the signal or not when approaching the intersection.

https://goo.gl/maps/jNuOm

[empirestate]

How about this fun one, where the right turn channel (besides being only painted, not physical separated) is only signalized when the green arrow is lit. The rest of the time, it's controlled by the Yield sign.

https://goo.gl/maps/WtMF9

(In the reverse direction, the weirdly-channelized left turn is signalized all the time.)

[roadfro]

I would say that unless a sign or local law prohibits a right turn on red, it should be perfectly acceptable in a channelized right turn with traffic signal control, to come to a complete stop and then safely make the turn on red.

Does it make a difference if the channelized right turn has its own separate signal head with a different aspect sequence than the main assembly?

Not to me. If the signal head controlling the right turn displays any red indication, normal right turn on red provisions should apply (unless overruled by a sign).

Also, are there some signaled channelized right turns whose geometry suggests that passing the signal constitutes a straight-through movement rather than a turn, and thus isn't subject to right-on-red rules?

Maybe...but then this seems less like a channelized right turn... If it's that ambiguous, it seems like a perfect candidate for a signal head control with a sign prohibiting RTOR.

[jakeroot]

(In the reverse direction, the weirdly-channelized left turn is signalized all the time.)

Hmmm....two opposing directions separated by white lines....

https://goo.gl/M2RGo6

[jeffandnicole]

Also, are there some signaled channelized right turns whose geometry suggests that passing the signal constitutes a straight-through movement rather than a turn, and thus isn't subject to right-on-red rules?

Maybe...but then this seems less like a channelized right turn... If it's that ambiguous, it seems like a perfect candidate for a signal head control with a sign prohibiting RTOR.

You're referring to a situation like this, where those staying to the left have the thru movement, and those to the right are turning right, but have their own signal.  If you zoomed in, you would see "No Turn On Red" signage.  It also does have right arrows which specifically excludes turning right on red anyway, but as most drivers aren't aware of that little factoid supplemental 'No Turn On Red' signs are used as well.

[cl94]

I can't embed the picture from my phone, but I'm at the intersection of US 62 and Tuscarora Rd in Niagara Fall doing a count at this moment. Channelized right turn in the foreground. People are taking it at around 30. Not even 8:00 and we've had several near-misses.

https://flic.kr/p/uTcfwG

[empirestate]

I would say that unless a sign or local law prohibits a right turn on red, it should be perfectly acceptable in a channelized right turn with traffic signal control, to come to a complete stop and then safely make the turn on red.

Does it make a difference if the channelized right turn has its own separate signal head with a different aspect sequence than the main assembly?

Not to me. If the signal head controlling the right turn displays any red indication, normal right turn on red provisions should apply (unless overruled by a sign).

That's probably a legally sound approach, although it starts to mirror the confusion surrounding red arrow indications. If, for example, the through movement has a green ball, and the right turn channel has a red ball, the implication might be that right turns are being expressly prohibited for the moment, just as might be the case at a non-channelized intersection where the signal shows a green ball with a red right arrow. Seeing either of these arrangements my first instinct would be that I may not turn right at all; it wouldn't be that, while all movements are allowed, right turns alone require a stop before proceeding.

Also, are there some signaled channelized right turns whose geometry suggests that passing the signal constitutes a straight-through movement rather than a turn, and thus isn't subject to right-on-red rules?

Maybe...but then this seems less like a channelized right turn... If it's that ambiguous, it seems like a perfect candidate for a signal head control with a sign prohibiting RTOR.

And I've often seen that used, to clarify. As well, besides just the geometry of the roadway, the position of the signal itself might lead me to interpret its meaning differently: if the signal head is placed after the curve, as the right turn channel straightens out to join its target roadway, I would probably not assume that I could proceed through the red signal after stopping, whereas if it were placed at the entrance to the channel I very likely would.

You're referring to a situation like this...

Can you specify "this"? (Missing link, perhaps?)