NYC Roads

[mariethefoxy]

Hell has a better chance of freezing over than they build any new expressway in New York City. This is the same administration that lowered the speed limit to 25, installed speed cameras, and has been adding bike lanes and "traffic calming" everywhere they possibly can, theres no way theyre going to finish a highway like that especially through a designated city park.

Would you mind specifying which administration you mean? I can't tell from your examples alone, as some of them have occurred under a couple of different mayors recently. And I can't think offhand whose was the last administration under which a new expressway was built, so I'm having trouble following your connection to current policy.


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The diBlasio administration, a lot of the stuff was started under Bloomberg, possibly before. Maybe my post wasnt so clear, what I meant was with the current mayor in charge the chance of any new expressway is slim to none.

[empirestate]

Hell has a better chance of freezing over than they build any new expressway in New York City. This is the same administration that lowered the speed limit to 25, installed speed cameras, and has been adding bike lanes and "traffic calming" everywhere they possibly can, theres no way theyre going to finish a highway like that especially through a designated city park.

Would you mind specifying which administration you mean? I can't tell from your examples alone, as some of them have occurred under a couple of different mayors recently. And I can't think offhand whose was the last administration under which a new expressway was built, so I'm having trouble following your connection to current policy.


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The diBlasio administration, a lot of the stuff was started under Bloomberg, possibly before. Maybe my post wasnt so clear, what I meant was with the current mayor in charge the chance of any new expressway is slim to none.

Well I'm sure the chance is slim, but that's been the case for a long time now, so surely it has to do with more than who the mayor is at the moment.


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[D-Dey65]

I think that in my head, every inch of ROW is useful. The state might use it again, and if the ROW is gone, then how will the state link ends together?

They're never going to. Robert Moses is gone. The focus in New York is back to transit. I see a subway tunnel to Staten Island being constructed before a parkway extension is built.

I'd be surprised if we could even see that, and I'd like to. I still think it's foolish to focus on one and ignore the other.

Was it Beame in the mid '70s with the West Shore Expressway (NY 440) on Staten Island?

Actually, I believe Koch let the JFK Expressway stub section of the Clearview get built, and the half-assed version of the Nassau Expressway too.

[MrDisco99]

Even with the gripes about the MTA, it's still the best public transportation system in the western hemisphere and one of the best in the world. You can get almost anywhere in the Tri-State with trains and buses. Braess' paradox would likely apply in this situation. With the increased capacity you'd see more cars on the road which would make traffic worse because people that currently know to take public transportation everywhere would start to drive more. You can joke about the Cross Bronx needing 10 lanes, but expressways and parkways would still be congested if everything ever planned was built with 10 lanes and it might even take longer to get everywhere.

Just look at Atlanta.  The downtown connector is 16 lanes in some places and is still a parking lot during rush hour.  If there's anything we've learned about city planning in the 20th century it's that you want to do whatever you can to keep people out of their cars.

[storm2k]

http://www.dot.ca.gov/research/docs/10-12-2015-NCST_Brief_InducedTravel_CS6_v3.pdf

Here's a brief from Caltrans (a leader in "more, more, more lanes!") that concludes that building more lanes just leads to more traffic, in both the short and long terms. Sometimes more roads is not the answer.

[D-Dey65]

http://www.dot.ca.gov/research/docs/10-12-2015-NCST_Brief_InducedTravel_CS6_v3.pdf

Here's a brief from Caltrans (a leader in "more, more, more lanes!") that concludes that building more lanes just leads to more traffic, in both the short and long terms. Sometimes more roads is not the answer.

Sponsored by the National Center for Sustainable Transportation, and from what I'm reading about them, they're another group dedicated to thwarting road improvements. You can post all the rigged studies you want, but the reality is that thwarting the construction of more lanes is what really leads to more traffic.

Even with the gripes about the MTA, it's still the best public transportation system in the western hemisphere and one of the best in the world. You can get almost anywhere in the Tri-State with trains and buses.

The keyword being "almost." There are a lot of subway lines that I'm really sorry were truncated too, as well as some railroad lines I think should get new tracks, grade eliminations and other improvements.

Braess' paradox would likely apply in this situation. With the increased capacity you'd see more cars on the road which would make traffic worse because people that currently know to take public transportation everywhere would start to drive more. You can joke about the Cross Bronx needing 10 lanes, but expressways and parkways would still be congested if everything ever planned was built with 10 lanes and it might even take longer to get everywhere.

I don't see leaving everything as is working out so great. I'm not saying we should add 10 lanes to the Cross Bronx, but there were plenty of other proposed expressways that could have relieved the Cross Bronx. If Robert Moses had never built a single parkway or expressway, all the cars, trucks, and buses that you see on them now would be crowded on the existing local streets.

[mariethefoxy]

Even with the gripes about the MTA, it's still the best public transportation system in the western hemisphere and one of the best in the world. You can get almost anywhere in the Tri-State with trains and buses. Braess' paradox would likely apply in this situation. With the increased capacity you'd see more cars on the road which would make traffic worse because people that currently know to take public transportation everywhere would start to drive more. You can joke about the Cross Bronx needing 10 lanes, but expressways and parkways would still be congested if everything ever planned was built with 10 lanes and it might even take longer to get everywhere.

Just look at Atlanta.  The downtown connector is 16 lanes in some places and is still a parking lot during rush hour.  If there's anything we've learned about city planning in the 20th century it's that you want to do whatever you can to keep people out of their cars.

Still I'd rather be stuck in my own private car where I can listen to my music and relax, vs being stuck in a crowded screeching tin can with all sorts of hoodlums and random people begging for money, selling candy, breakdancing and asking for money, and people that smell and all sortsa germs and disease roaming around the cabin.

[Duke87]

Still I'd rather be stuck in my own private car where I can listen to my music and relax, vs being stuck in a crowded screeching tin can with all sorts of hoodlums and random people begging for money, selling candy, breakdancing and asking for money, and people that smell and all sortsa germs and disease roaming around the cabin.

Matter of preference I suppose. I'd rather be on a train than sitting in traffic even if the train isn't any faster, since on the train I can zone out and rest my brain while when driving I need to keep constantly paying attention.

Meanwhile I can't listen to music while I'm stuck in traffic... to the point where if I have music on and I hit traffic, I need to turn the music off until I'm back to free flow speed. My driving music gets me pumped and makes me want to go, go, go. If I try listening to such things while stuck in traffic it makes the traffic twice as frustrating.

[Pete from Boston]

Even with the gripes about the MTA, it's still the best public transportation system in the western hemisphere and one of the best in the world. You can get almost anywhere in the Tri-State with trains and buses. Braess' paradox would likely apply in this situation. With the increased capacity you'd see more cars on the road which would make traffic worse because people that currently know to take public transportation everywhere would start to drive more. You can joke about the Cross Bronx needing 10 lanes, but expressways and parkways would still be congested if everything ever planned was built with 10 lanes and it might even take longer to get everywhere.

Just look at Atlanta.  The downtown connector is 16 lanes in some places and is still a parking lot during rush hour.  If there's anything we've learned about city planning in the 20th century it's that you want to do whatever you can to keep people out of their cars.

Still I'd rather be stuck in my own private car where I can listen to my music and relax, vs being stuck in a crowded screeching tin can with all sorts of hoodlums and random people begging for money, selling candy, breakdancing and asking for money, and people that smell and all sortsa germs and disease roaming around the cabin.

Since you are 83 (you did describe the folks on trains as "hoodlums"), you get a pass, but you just described the sidewalk more than the subway, so I take it you're of the set that feels the public on the sidewalk are primarily scenery for you to see from a car.

With a description like that of the general rabble, I find it odd one would enter the city to begin with.

Matter of preference I suppose. I'd rather be on a train than sitting in traffic even if the train isn't any faster, since on the train I can zone out and rest my brain while when driving I need to keep constantly paying attention.

Meanwhile I can't listen to music while I'm stuck in traffic... to the point where if I have music on and I hit traffic, I need to turn the music off until I'm back to free flow speed. My driving music gets me pumped and makes me want to go, go, go. If I try listening to such things while stuck in traffic it makes the traffic twice as frustrating.

On public transit I've done the most reading I'll ever do anywhere (college included).  I don't carry a book anymore, but the little Distraction Buddy (also makes calls!) in my pocket goes a long way in their stead.

In traffic I always tune over to WCBS or WBZ or whatever the local traffic-roundup station is anyway.

[MrDisco99]

Even with the gripes about the MTA, it's still the best public transportation system in the western hemisphere and one of the best in the world. You can get almost anywhere in the Tri-State with trains and buses. Braess' paradox would likely apply in this situation. With the increased capacity you'd see more cars on the road which would make traffic worse because people that currently know to take public transportation everywhere would start to drive more. You can joke about the Cross Bronx needing 10 lanes, but expressways and parkways would still be congested if everything ever planned was built with 10 lanes and it might even take longer to get everywhere.

Just look at Atlanta.  The downtown connector is 16 lanes in some places and is still a parking lot during rush hour.  If there's anything we've learned about city planning in the 20th century it's that you want to do whatever you can to keep people out of their cars.

Still I'd rather be stuck in my own private car where I can listen to my music and relax, vs being stuck in a crowded screeching tin can with all sorts of hoodlums and random people begging for money, selling candy, breakdancing and asking for money, and people that smell and all sortsa germs and disease roaming around the cabin.

I guess it just depends on how important it is to get to where you're going.  You strike me as someone who dislikes the city in general, not just public transit.

[mariethefoxy]

that is a quite accurate assessment. Im not a city person in the slightest, I prefer the quiet and peacefulness of the suburbs and the country.

[Duke87]

On public transit I've done the most reading I'll ever do anywhere (college included).  I don't carry a book anymore, but the little Distraction Buddy (also makes calls!) in my pocket goes a long way in their stead.

Also true. Back when I commuted from Connecticut daily I would usually sleep on the train in the morning and would often read on the train in the evening. But these things were possible and easy because I pretty much always had a seat on those trains.

Nowadays I will often play with a portable electronic device of some form when I'm on the bus.

Not so much on the subway, though - I can't play with my phone with one hand while straphanging with the other, and I usually don't get a seat on the train. And since the things I do with my phone all require an active data or wifi signal, I can't do them while underground anyway.

[Alps]

Though we're getting rather far afield, the short answer is that yes, the more lanes you build, the more traffic you get. That's because people are now making compromised choices. When you unbottle their preferred choice, they flock to it. Double the capacity of the Lincoln Tunnel and it'll still clog up in rush hour. But now the delays will be lower, and they'll drop at the other crossings, and the train infrastructure won't be pressed over capacity. Etc. etc. More capacity is always a good thing, you just have to understand that in congested old-urban areas, you're building to catch up to the past, not to plan for the future.

[D-Dey65]

Matter of preference I suppose. I'd rather be on a train than sitting in traffic even if the train isn't any faster, since on the train I can zone out and rest my brain while when driving I need to keep constantly paying attention.

You know, I get where mariethefoxy is coming from, but I've stated in the past that when I'm in the city, I feel safer in the subway than in a cab.

Meanwhile I can't listen to music while I'm stuck in traffic... to the point where if I have music on and I hit traffic, I need to turn the music off until I'm back to free flow speed. My driving music gets me pumped and makes me want to go, go, go. If I try listening to such things while stuck in traffic it makes the traffic twice as frustrating.

I feel ya. But even then, sometimes I might be in the mood for a tune during a traffic jam.

[empirestate]

Still I'd rather be stuck in my own private car where I can listen to my music and relax, vs being stuck in a crowded screeching tin can with all sorts of hoodlums and random people begging for money, selling candy, breakdancing and asking for money, and people that smell and all sortsa germs and disease roaming around the cabin.

Though of course, as I'm sure you've observed, relaxing behind the wheel while driving through NYC is usually quite difficult to achieve and probably inadvisable as well, since considerable mental acuity is called for. Although I guess more than a few people are managing it somehow, since one of my observations has been that NYC drivers do seem to exhibit a worrying amount of relaxation with respect to the driving process!

that is a quite accurate assessment. Im not a city person in the slightest, I prefer the quiet and peacefulness of the suburbs and the country.

In the NYC area, I actually don't find the suburbs to be much more peaceful, if at all, when it comes to the roads. I sum it up this way: if you think NYC drivers are bad in the city, try taking them out to Westchester or Long Island and give them the space to really do some damage! 

But there are different areas. I'm now in Putnam County, bordering northwestern Westchester, and it's actually comparatively rural compared not only to the suburbs closer in, but also the ones farther out in Dutchess and Orange Counties. While driving around my area is pretty low-key, I can hop on the Taconic or US 9 during rush hour and suddenly be surrounded by a manic rat-race of drivers trying to beat their best time between the city and their far-flung home 70 miles out.

[cl94]

Still I'd rather be stuck in my own private car where I can listen to my music and relax, vs being stuck in a crowded screeching tin can with all sorts of hoodlums and random people begging for money, selling candy, breakdancing and asking for money, and people that smell and all sortsa germs and disease roaming around the cabin.

Though of course, as I'm sure you've observed, relaxing behind the wheel while driving through NYC is usually quite difficult to achieve and probably inadvisable as well, since considerable mental acuity is called for. Although I guess more than a few people are managing it somehow, since one of my observations has been that NYC drivers do seem to exhibit a worrying amount of relaxation with respect to the driving process!

that is a quite accurate assessment. Im not a city person in the slightest, I prefer the quiet and peacefulness of the suburbs and the country.

In the NYC area, I actually don't find the suburbs to be much more peaceful, if at all, when it comes to the roads. I sum it up this way: if you think NYC drivers are bad in the city, try taking them out to Westchester or Long Island and give them the space to really do some damage! 

But there are different areas. I'm now in Putnam County, bordering northwestern Westchester, and it's actually comparatively rural compared not only to the suburbs closer in, but also the ones farther out in Dutchess and Orange Counties. While driving around my area is pretty low-key, I can hop on the Taconic or US 9 during rush hour and suddenly be surrounded by a manic rat-race of drivers trying to beat their best time between the city and their far-flung home 70 miles out.

Well yeah...the Taconic/Sprain Brook between the Cross Westchester and I-84 has no speed limit. I've gone well over 80 on parts of that stretch and been passed by lines of cars that had to be doing 100.

[Pete from Boston]

On public transit I've done the most reading I'll ever do anywhere (college included).  I don't carry a book anymore, but the little Distraction Buddy (also makes calls!) in my pocket goes a long way in their stead.

Also true. Back when I commuted from Connecticut daily I would usually sleep on the train in the morning and would often read on the train in the evening. But these things were possible and easy because I pretty much always had a seat on those trains.

Nowadays I will often play with a portable electronic device of some form when I'm on the bus.

Not so much on the subway, though - I can't play with my phone with one hand while straphanging with the other, and I usually don't get a seat on the train. And since the things I do with my phone all require an active data or wifi signal, I can't do them while underground anyway.

Our signal underground has greatly improved here, but the old reliable Friday NYT crossword on my phone will keep me busy on any length of signal-free underground delay.   The new larger smartphones definitely do make one-handed play, as is needed when standing, more of a literal (literal literal?) stretch.

[dgolub]

In the NYC area, I actually don't find the suburbs to be much more peaceful, if at all, when it comes to the roads. I sum it up this way: if you think NYC drivers are bad in the city, try taking them out to Westchester or Long Island and give them the space to really do some damage! 

I grew up on Long Island, and I'll concur with you that drivers out there can be aggressive, at least in Nassau County, but I don't think it's quite as bad as in Manhattan.

[empirestate]

In the NYC area, I actually don't find the suburbs to be much more peaceful, if at all, when it comes to the roads. I sum it up this way: if you think NYC drivers are bad in the city, try taking them out to Westchester or Long Island and give them the space to really do some damage! 

I grew up on Long Island, and I'll concur with you that drivers out there can be aggressive, at least in Nassau County, but I don't think it's quite as bad as in Manhattan.

Manhattan I actually place in a different category, since most of the motorists there are taxis, commercial vehicles or tourists. And I actually find the style there to be more manageable than the outer borough/suburban style.

Also, I do find Westchester to be worse than Long Island. My unscientific guess would be that Westchester has a higher proportion of NYC transplants, whereas Long Island has more "lifers" who weren't brought up so much with the city driving style.

[Pete from Boston]

Speed is low most places in Manhattan when most people are driving, lessening the severity of most offenses.  The avenues are timed to what, 28 mph?  And good luck racing down the FDR for very long.  The Henry Hudson is the only place that traffic really flies, and a lot of that is New Jersey/Westchester traffic.

[SidS1045]

The avenues are timed to what, 28 mph?

Yes, when the city-wide speed limit was 30.  The timing has probably been changed since the limit was dropped to 25.

[mariethefoxy]

Still I'd rather be stuck in my own private car where I can listen to my music and relax, vs being stuck in a crowded screeching tin can with all sorts of hoodlums and random people begging for money, selling candy, breakdancing and asking for money, and people that smell and all sortsa germs and disease roaming around the cabin.

Though of course, as I'm sure you've observed, relaxing behind the wheel while driving through NYC is usually quite difficult to achieve and probably inadvisable as well, since considerable mental acuity is called for. Although I guess more than a few people are managing it somehow, since one of my observations has been that NYC drivers do seem to exhibit a worrying amount of relaxation with respect to the driving process!

that is a quite accurate assessment. Im not a city person in the slightest, I prefer the quiet and peacefulness of the suburbs and the country.

In the NYC area, I actually don't find the suburbs to be much more peaceful, if at all, when it comes to the roads. I sum it up this way: if you think NYC drivers are bad in the city, try taking them out to Westchester or Long Island and give them the space to really do some damage! 

But there are different areas. I'm now in Putnam County, bordering northwestern Westchester, and it's actually comparatively rural compared not only to the suburbs closer in, but also the ones farther out in Dutchess and Orange Counties. While driving around my area is pretty low-key, I can hop on the Taconic or US 9 during rush hour and suddenly be surrounded by a manic rat-race of drivers trying to beat their best time between the city and their far-flung home 70 miles out.

depends on the highway, I find the parkways (Belt and Cross Island in particular) are much more difficult to be stuck in traffic on due to the narrower lanes and those horrible storm drains in the left lane.

Cross Bronx is still the worst, I dunno if its psychological or what, the Bruckner North towards New England is more of a relaxing time if I gotta be stuck somewhere, and Ive spent plenty of time stuck on that section.

Its never relaxing on the NYC roads, but I still stick by the fact I'd rather be in the privacy of my car because I hate crowded places, it adds a level of stress of its own. Im a girl that likes her privacy and peace and quiet.

As for Nassau drivers, theyre not that bad, not nearly as aggressive as the city.

[dgolub]

Speed is low most places in Manhattan when most people are driving, lessening the severity of most offenses.  The avenues are timed to what, 28 mph?  And good luck racing down the FDR for very long.  The Henry Hudson is the only place that traffic really flies, and a lot of that is New Jersey/Westchester traffic.

Yes, until you get in a cab with some idiot driver who decides to go 50 MPH down Broadway on the Upper West Side and you hold on for dear life and pray that he doesn't kill any pedestrians.

[cl94]

Speed is low most places in Manhattan when most people are driving, lessening the severity of most offenses.  The avenues are timed to what, 28 mph?  And good luck racing down the FDR for very long.  The Henry Hudson is the only place that traffic really flies, and a lot of that is New Jersey/Westchester traffic.

Yes, until you get in a cab with some idiot driver who decides to go 50 MPH down Broadway on the Upper West Side and you hold on for dear life and pray that he doesn't kill any pedestrians.

Unfortunately, those days are over. Last time I took a cab, they drove like an 80 year old woman

[empirestate]

Its never relaxing on the NYC roads, but I still stick by the fact I'd rather be in the privacy of my car because I hate crowded places, it adds a level of stress of its own. Im a girl that likes her privacy and peace and quiet.

Oh I don't doubt your preference, I was just incredulous at your definition of "relaxing". Although from what I remember you saying about liking to zoom around Connecticut's freeways at top speed, perhaps that's not surprising! :-)

As for Nassau drivers, theyre not that bad, not nearly as aggressive as the city.

I'm not out there very often, but I would expect they're by and large the same drivers. Nassau County and Queens blend together pretty seamlessly in most places.


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