I-95 through the Meadowlands

[Pete from Boston]

When was the last serious talk of widening the Western Spur?  I have the plans from 25+ years ago; has there been any mention since?

[roadman65]

I remember that. If I am not mistaken it was to be another dual configuration like south of there on the mainline.  I cannot be sure of the details, but nonetheless I heard what you did.

I have been away for those 25 years so who knows what happened there since.  I second his question.

[empirestate]

At the I-80 and I-280 split, New York or New York City is still the pull through destination, even though I-280 can indirectly get you to the Holland Tunnel via CR 508, NJ 7, US 1 & 9 Truck, and NJ 139.

Also at Wayne, where US 46 has an exit for those wishing to head east to Clifton and NJ 3, still has NYC as pull through along with the GWB as US 46 E Bound at Exit 52 uses Clifton and Lincoln Tunnel as control destinations without New York, despite most motorists from the west bound for Midtown would exit here.

So, the lack of New York at the decision points is not relevant as New York is listed all the way to the end of I-80 from pretty much all points.  I say pretty much because at CR 521 near Hope, NJDOT uses Netcong at that entry point, but as far as I know all pull through signs use "New York" or "New York City."  I do not know what all ramps say as I never been on all of them, nor have I been living in New Jersey for 25 years to be accurate.

You're talking about what's actually signed; but I'm thinking about how it might be signed if my theory were adopted, or if my theory even makes sense.

[MrDisco99]

I-80 WB: Columbus and Cleveland (no need to mention PA they all scrublords (again, sarcasm and yes i am joking))

I-80 doesn't go to Columbus. (Cue the infamous "I-76 doesn't go to Cleveland" outcry from Pittsburgh.")

I'm guessing that any NYC metro-area traffic bound for Columbus is going to use the NJTP, the PA Turnpike and I-70, which does go to Columbus, unless they're avowed shunpikers.

A simpler way would be I-80 to I-71, and is cheaper than NJTP to PATP to I-70. I've compared the tolls below

I-80 to I-71 via Ohio Turnpike: $4 with EZPass, $5.75 without EZPass
NJTP to PATP to I-70: Total of $45.80 without EZPass.

Quicker to go I-80 to I-76 (straight, no exit) to I-71, and zero tolls.

[noelbotevera]

This is unrelated, but about the Meadowlands, doesn't the NJ Turnpike have an exit leading to the Meadowlands? I believe there is a changeable sign that always says "DO NOT ENTER" in white with a red background. Never saw it changing.

[Pete from Boston]

This is unrelated, but about the Meadowlands, doesn't the NJ Turnpike have an exit leading to the Meadowlands? I believe there is a changeable sign that always says "DO NOT ENTER" in white with a red background. Never saw it changing.

Actually it's one of the few recent on-topic posts here.

It is open during major events at the sports complex. 

[NJRoadfan]

Also at Wayne, where US 46 has an exit for those wishing to head east to Clifton and NJ 3, still has NYC as pull through along with the GWB as US 46 E Bound at Exit 52 uses Clifton and Lincoln Tunnel as control destinations without New York, despite most motorists from the west bound for Midtown would exit here.

Things were simpler in the old days:


Yes, New England was once used in New Jersey! Gotta love that deco style billboard that likely lit up at night.

[empirestate]

Things were simpler in the old days:


Yes, New England was once used in New Jersey! Gotta love that deco style billboard that likely lit up at night.

That seems to go right along with my thinking. But current practice doesn't match that so much; what's the difference in philosophy?


iPhone

[NJRoadfan]

The billboard above is likely an "advertisement", not bounded by government bureaucracy. Ironic because it was posted by one of the most bureaucratic government agencies out there, the Port Authority.

[Alps]

When was the last serious talk of widening the Western Spur?  I have the plans from 25+ years ago; has there been any mention since?

There haven't been any design efforts for widening since then, so any widening would not occur in this decade. It will take the start of design efforts to determine whether the old plans (dual-dual system) are used to any degree, and how much widening may happen. No timetable on that. But no, the NJTA isn't blind to the traffic there.

[Alps]

This is unrelated, but about the Meadowlands, doesn't the NJ Turnpike have an exit leading to the Meadowlands? I believe there is a changeable sign that always says "DO NOT ENTER" in white with a red background. Never saw it changing.

I've seen it open more times than closed, actually. The "CW" ramps connect the Meadowlands to I-95 NB and I-95 SB, and from I-95 SB into the Meadowlands, north of the 18W toll plaza. (In other words, it counts as a free interchange.) I don't know why there was never a NB ramp built at this spot, as it would be nice to have a relief valve for 16W when event traffic really gets going.

[Alps]

Things were simpler in the old days:


Yes, New England was once used in New Jersey! Gotta love that deco style billboard that likely lit up at night.

That seems to go right along with my thinking. But current practice doesn't match that so much; what's the difference in philosophy?


iPhone

Difference is that AASHTO is now in charge of control cities, so the boroughs of NY are subjugated to the actual NY destination itself. To address an earlier post, once you stop signing NYC as the destination for I-80, that's it. You can't restart it, technically. I support the destinations for I-280 being more local in nature (The Caldwells and Newark). There are multiple routes to the Holland Tunnel from the I-80 corridor, and given the lack of direct freeway connection via I-280, it may have been deemed undesirable to sign it. Once you get to Exit 53, I-80 is signed to Geo Washington Br and US 46-NJ 3 is signed to Lincoln Tunnel. Again, that's supportable. There are very few people who don't know where they're going as they enter metro NJ, and if these signs don't help them, well, NYC is so big that they'll never get to their destination if all they're following is signs to New York.

[empirestate]

Things were simpler in the old days:


Yes, New England was once used in New Jersey! Gotta love that deco style billboard that likely lit up at night.

That seems to go right along with my thinking. But current practice doesn't match that so much; what's the difference in philosophy?

Difference is that AASHTO is now in charge of control cities, so the boroughs of NY are subjugated to the actual NY destination itself.

What's AASHTO's rationale for mandating that?

[Pete from Boston]

Also at Wayne, where US 46 has an exit for those wishing to head east to Clifton and NJ 3, still has NYC as pull through along with the GWB as US 46 E Bound at Exit 52 uses Clifton and Lincoln Tunnel as control destinations without New York, despite most motorists from the west bound for Midtown would exit here.

Things were simpler in the old days:


Yes, New England was once used in New Jersey! Gotta love that deco style billboard that likely lit up at night.

Thanks for posting that.  Really nice look at the perspective of the time.  Do you know the specific location of this sign?

[ixnay]

As far as a general (not specific) location, I guess that billboard was on NJ 6 (today's U.S. 46) in the Little Falls/Woodland Park stretch.  https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8782998,-74.2038933,15z   NJ S-3 mentioned on the billboard is today's NJ 3.   All per Wiki.

I once had a book called IIRC Crossing the Delaware about the history of the Delaware Memorial Bridge, by the former head of the DRBA.  In in is a pic of a billboard similar to the one reproduced above, but on U.S. 40 at the DE/MD line, with a picture of the then-new, single span DMB, text like "Welcome to Delaware/Delaware Memorial Bridge 12 Miles", and a friendly DE state trooper advising to "Slow Down and Live".

ixnay

[Alps]

Difference is that AASHTO is now in charge of control cities, so the boroughs of NY are subjugated to the actual NY destination itself.

What's AASHTO's rationale for mandating that?

I was referring back to I-80 in this case. AASHTO is in control of Interstate highway control cities only. Anything on US or state highways is up to the individual state, as US 46/NJ 3 would be.

[bzakharin]

As far as a general (not specific) location, I guess that billboard was on NJ 6 (today's U.S. 46) in the Little Falls/Woodland Park stretch.  https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8782998,-74.2038933,15z   NJ S-3 mentioned on the billboard is today's NJ 3.   All per Wiki.

I once had a book called IIRC Crossing the Delaware about the history of the Delaware Memorial Bridge, by the former head of the DRBA.  In in is a pic of a billboard similar to the one reproduced above, but on U.S. 40 at the DE/MD line, with a picture of the then-new, single span DMB, text like "Welcome to Delaware/Delaware Memorial Bridge 12 Miles", and a friendly DE state trooper advising to "Slow Down and Live".

ixnay

Well, if those routes are correct, it would be US 46 East 1.5 miles before NJ 3, in which case the current version of that sign is:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8761445,-74.2020275,3a,75y,113.87h,89.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scnIX55ATx1p0ZdjoZxzyBA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
No cities of any sort are mentioned, just GWB and Lincoln Tunnel

[empirestate]

Difference is that AASHTO is now in charge of control cities, so the boroughs of NY are subjugated to the actual NY destination itself.

What's AASHTO's rationale for mandating that?

I was referring back to I-80 in this case. AASHTO is in control of Interstate highway control cities only. Anything on US or state highways is up to the individual state, as US 46/NJ 3 would be.

I get that. But aren't you saying that AASHTO would only sign the city name (New York) rather than any of the boroughs or some more specific destination? Maybe I misunderstood what you mean by "the NY destination itself".

But regardless of that, I was asking about the difference in philosophy, not in jurisdiction. What is AASHTO's–or anybody's–rationale for choosing control cities, and why doesn't it lead them towards a solution like the old billboard in the photo?

The reason I'm asking is because we've gotten onto this lengthy tangent about how destinations should be signed for the NYC approaches off of I-95, and I thought if we could establish the underlying aim of choosing the destinations, we could more easily decide on what they should appropriately be. That is, if we come to an agreement about what the question is, we might more readily agree on the answer.

[NE2]

This is probably it, just east of Browertown Road (there's now a Taco Bell there):

[TheStranger]

But regardless of that, I was asking about the difference in philosophy, not in jurisdiction. What is AASHTO's–or anybody's–rationale for choosing control cities, and why doesn't it lead them towards a solution like the old billboard in the photo?

This isn't a direct answer, but a modern analogue for the usage of boroughs in that sign...is the continued practice of local destinations along Los Angeles freeways, particularly the usage of "Hollywood" and "Echo Park" (and to some extent "San Pedro"), all locales in the Los Angeles city limits.  (This along with "Los Angeles" being used generally as a control destination referring to downtown specifically)

Are there other places where sub-sections of cities are used as primary control destinations along with or in lieu of the actual city name itself?

[Duke87]

When was the last serious talk of widening the Western Spur?  I have the plans from 25+ years ago; has there been any mention since?

There haven't been any design efforts for widening since then, so any widening would not occur in this decade. It will take the start of design efforts to determine whether the old plans (dual-dual system) are used to any degree, and how much widening may happen. No timetable on that. But no, the NJTA isn't blind to the traffic there.

Given that the Western spur is essentially surrounded in entirety by wetlands, would widening it even be feasible? Would require an awful lot of mitigation work, and an awful lot of wetland creation at some other location.

[Pete from Boston]

When was the last serious talk of widening the Western Spur?  I have the plans from 25+ years ago; has there been any mention since?

There haven't been any design efforts for widening since then, so any widening would not occur in this decade. It will take the start of design efforts to determine whether the old plans (dual-dual system) are used to any degree, and how much widening may happen. No timetable on that. But no, the NJTA isn't blind to the traffic there.

Given that the Western spur is essentially surrounded in entirety by wetlands, would widening it even be feasible? Would require an awful lot of mitigation work, and an awful lot of wetland creation at some other location.

Not exactly.  When this plan was proposed, the Meadowlands had been developed in part by trading rights for some kind of "wetlands improvements."  You would see mud flats with new, immature plants, and new bird platforms. 

Are there signs still in the marsh on the Eastern Spur declaring that Hartz Mountain has restored that area?

I have no idea how meaningful the improvements are.  Perhaps they cleared the invasive phragmites (reeds) out for a while, but phragmites just comes back.

[The Nature Boy]

But regardless of that, I was asking about the difference in philosophy, not in jurisdiction. What is AASHTO's–or anybody's–rationale for choosing control cities, and why doesn't it lead them towards a solution like the old billboard in the photo?

This isn't a direct answer, but a modern analogue for the usage of boroughs in that sign...is the continued practice of local destinations along Los Angeles freeways, particularly the usage of "Hollywood" and "Echo Park" (and to some extent "San Pedro"), all locales in the Los Angeles city limits.  (This along with "Los Angeles" being used generally as a control destination referring to downtown specifically)

Are there other places where sub-sections of cities are used as primary control destinations along with or in lieu of the actual city name itself?

White River Junction, Vermont is a village within the town of Hartford, Vermont. WRJ is an I-91 control city, Hartford, VT is not.

[Alps]

When was the last serious talk of widening the Western Spur?  I have the plans from 25+ years ago; has there been any mention since?

There haven't been any design efforts for widening since then, so any widening would not occur in this decade. It will take the start of design efforts to determine whether the old plans (dual-dual system) are used to any degree, and how much widening may happen. No timetable on that. But no, the NJTA isn't blind to the traffic there.

Given that the Western spur is essentially surrounded in entirety by wetlands, would widening it even be feasible? Would require an awful lot of mitigation work, and an awful lot of wetland creation at some other location.

All I know is that the only thing stopping the 1980s widening was funding, not permits, so they have to have something ready.

[cl94]

But regardless of that, I was asking about the difference in philosophy, not in jurisdiction. What is AASHTO's–or anybody's–rationale for choosing control cities, and why doesn't it lead them towards a solution like the old billboard in the photo?

This isn't a direct answer, but a modern analogue for the usage of boroughs in that sign...is the continued practice of local destinations along Los Angeles freeways, particularly the usage of "Hollywood" and "Echo Park" (and to some extent "San Pedro"), all locales in the Los Angeles city limits.  (This along with "Los Angeles" being used generally as a control destination referring to downtown specifically)

Are there other places where sub-sections of cities are used as primary control destinations along with or in lieu of the actual city name itself?

White River Junction, Vermont is a village within the town of Hartford, Vermont. WRJ is an I-91 control city, Hartford, VT is not.

Yes and no. White River Junction might be a CDP, but it is significantly more notable than Hartford, which in itself is not a notable destination. Going back in history, the area's rail station was (and still is) White River Junction. Hartford is also a town. That would be like NYSDOT having all of its exits in the town of Colonie use "Colonie" as the control instead of the hamlets currently used.