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Author Topic: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach  (Read 13083 times)

usends

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End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« on: February 14, 2016, 10:28:24 PM »

I just noticed, according to Google Maps, that US 58 no longer continues to the east end of Laskin Rd.  Rather, a few blocks west of the shore, there's a roundabout, and US 58 is shown with what looks like a split terminus, using the blocks on either side of Laskin (30th and 32nd).  However, neither of those roads are one-way, so I'm not sure whether Google is correct.  Not surprisingly, there doesn't appear to be any US 58 signs posted, until west of the roundabout.

When did this change happen?  And is there anything official from VDOT that spells out what happens with US 58 at its east end?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 11:47:38 AM by usends »
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Thing 342

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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2016, 11:44:03 PM »

The roundabout was converted from a standard intersection in 2013. I believe that US-58 still follows Laskin to US-60, as the official state map shows US-58 staying together (as opposed to I-264, which splits into the one-way pair), but I have little other official info to confirm this.

Detail map of VB can be found here: http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 11:46:10 PM by Thing 342 »
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74/171FAN

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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 06:13:26 AM »

The roundabout was converted from a standard intersection in 2013. I believe that US-58 still follows Laskin to US-60, as the official state map shows US-58 staying together (as opposed to I-264, which splits into the one-way pair), but I have little other official info to confirm this.

Detail map of VB can be found here: http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html
This was discussed a couple years ago in the Virginia thread starting here.

Unless anything has changed from Froggie's statement in that same thread below US 58 still follows Laskin Road:
Last time I was over that way (pre-deployment), it was still under construction.  However, since Virginia has not submitted a routing change to AASHTO, nor has their internal documentation noted any differences, it's safe to say that US 58 still follows Laskin Rd and ends at the Laskin Rd/Pacific Ave intersection.
Also there are no US 58 shields to help either:
I'm in Virginia Beach now, and was at the area in question earlier. No signage of any kind, of course, but it's finished now.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 06:20:31 AM by 74/171FAN »
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froggie

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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 07:40:47 AM »

Nothing has changed.  Mike and I did a double-check a couple years ago for VHP.  Verified it with 2015 VDOT shapefiles...US 58 still follows Laskin and ends at Laskin and Pacific.   Google is in error on this.  OSM is still correct.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 08:34:53 AM »

I just noticed, according to Google Maps, that US 58 no longer continues to the east end of Laskin Blvd.  Rather, a few blocks west of the shore, there's a roundabout, and US 58 is shown with what looks like a split terminus, using the blocks on either side of Laskin (30th and 32nd).  However, neither of those roads are one-way, so I'm not sure whether Google is correct.  Not surprisingly, there doesn't appear to be any US 58 signs posted, until west of the roundabout.

When did this change happen?  And is there anything official from VDOT that spells out what happens with US 58 at its east end?

This roundabout intersection is kind of crazy.  IMO, it only makes sense if they actually divert all of Laskin's traffic onto 30th and 32nd (as one-way couplets) and pedestrianize (or severely limit the traffic on) the eastern part of Laskin. 
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 10:05:39 AM »

This roundabout intersection is kind of crazy.  IMO, it only makes sense if they actually divert all of Laskin's traffic onto 30th and 32nd (as one-way couplets) and pedestrianize (or severely limit the traffic on) the eastern part of Laskin.
Well, the design certainly does cause the main flow of inbound traffic to end up on 30th (rather than Laskin).  If one makes the effort to stay "straight" in order to continue down Laskin, they're faced with a 25 MPH limit, stop signs at every intersection, and a speed hump at a ped crossing.

My question is: what does it mean (in a practical sense) that VDOT still defines Laskin as a highway?  Does that mean they are the entity that maintains that road (as opposed to the City of VA Beach)?  Did they have to install the stop signs, the speed limit signs, and the speed hump?  Or is everything maintained by VA Beach, and the fact that Laskin is a "highway" is pretty meaningless, in the sense that VA Beach can implement whatever it decides is the best traffic solution, without any regard for the fact that VDOT apparently considers Laskin to have a special designation?
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 10:23:44 AM »

Quote
everything maintained by VA Beach, and the fact that Laskin is a "highway" is pretty meaningless, in the sense that VA Beach can implement whatever it decides is the best traffic solution

This, more or less.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2016, 11:19:46 AM »

Quote
everything maintained by VA Beach, and the fact that Laskin is a "highway" is pretty meaningless, in the sense that VA Beach can implement whatever it decides is the best traffic solution
This, more or less.

Interesting.  So, is it accurate to say that, within the boundaries of Virginia municipalities, VDOT has deferred responsibility for non-interstate highways to the cities?  In other words, not only are the cities responsible for highway signage, but they are also responsible for road maintenance, traffic control, etc?  Within cities, is there any aspect of non-interstate highways for which VDOT itself is still responsible?
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Mapmikey

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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2016, 12:23:39 PM »

Per the Jan shapefiles, US 58 is still on Laskin Rd east of the traffic circle.

However, the shapefiles also don't show clearly posted changes to US routes within other independent cities (Fredericksburg, Norfolk, and Winchester) that go back as much as a decade ago.

The current CTB Minutes do not seem to address route changes anymore, so I am pessimistic about ever learning of changes in Virginia anymore unless they go to AASHTO.  We are down to noticing in the field a route has been posted differently.

While VDOT doesn't have responsibility for non-interstate primary routes within independent cities, some incorporated towns, and Arlington/Henrico Counties, they do send the $ and there are at least some standards that have to be met.  For example, when streetcars were coming to VA 244 in Arlington County VDOT forced the decommissioning of VA 244 in Arlington County.

Mike
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2016, 01:18:45 PM »


Interesting.  So, is it accurate to say that, within the boundaries of Virginia municipalities, VDOT has deferred responsibility for non-interstate highways to the cities?  In other words, not only are the cities responsible for highway signage, but they are also responsible for road maintenance, traffic control, etc?  Within cities, is there any aspect of non-interstate highways for which VDOT itself is still responsible?

I do believe that VDOT is still responsible for the maintenance for VA 164 in Suffolk and Portsmouth, since it is a freeway.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2016, 01:47:38 PM »

Per the Jan shapefiles, US 58 is still on Laskin Rd east of the traffic circle.  However, the shapefiles also don't show clearly posted changes to US routes within other independent cities (Fredericksburg, Norfolk, and Winchester) that go back as much as a decade ago.
Yes, it seems to me that VDOT shapefiles, route logs, etc. can't really be relied upon, since VDOT isn't the responsible entity.

The current CTB Minutes do not seem to address route changes anymore, so I am pessimistic about ever learning of changes in Virginia anymore unless they go to AASHTO.  We are down to noticing in the field a route has been posted differently.
Exactly.  And unfortunately highway signage is not a top priority with some cities (*ahem, VA Beach*).  However, if VA Beach were to sign US 58 from Pacific, I cannot believe that they would direct traffic up Laskin, considering the investments they have made to route traffic away from Laskin.

While VDOT doesn't have responsibility for non-interstate primary routes within independent cities, some incorporated towns, and Arlington/Henrico Counties, they do send the $ and there are at least some standards that have to be met.  For example, when streetcars were coming to VA 244 in Arlington County VDOT forced the decommissioning of VA 244 in Arlington County.
Okay.  And I suspect that Laskin east of the roundabout is now an example of a road that no longer meets VDOT standards for highways.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2016, 02:02:27 PM »


Interesting.  So, is it accurate to say that, within the boundaries of Virginia municipalities, VDOT has deferred responsibility for non-interstate highways to the cities?  In other words, not only are the cities responsible for highway signage, but they are also responsible for road maintenance, traffic control, etc?  Within cities, is there any aspect of non-interstate highways for which VDOT itself is still responsible?

I do believe that VDOT is still responsible for the maintenance for VA 164 in Suffolk and Portsmouth, since it is a freeway.

True although the traffic log suggests that at least some freeways (for example, US 29 Bus in Lynchburg) within independent cities are not maintained by VDOT...

Mike
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froggie

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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2016, 05:31:11 PM »

Quote from: usends
Interesting.  So, is it accurate to say that, within the boundaries of Virginia municipalities, VDOT has deferred responsibility for non-interstate highways to the cities?  In other words, not only are the cities responsible for highway signage, but they are also responsible for road maintenance, traffic control, etc?  Within cities, is there any aspect of non-interstate highways for which VDOT itself is still responsible?

As Mike alluded to, VDOT's responsibility is to disburse primary system money and to make sure that established standards are being met for roadway projects.  Regarding your last comment, there is nothing in the standards that says a roadway cannot go on a road diet, which is effectively what happened to the east end of Laskin Rd.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2016, 08:41:51 PM »

Is not Business US 58 also not signed as well in VA Beach?  I know they did not sub standardize VA Beach Blvd. like they did Laskin Road, but the fact is THEY DO NOT SIGN ANY OF ITS ROUTES!  Even US 60 is hardly signed on Pacific, and the old US 60 Business on Atlantic Avenue is no longer signed for sure.

However, back in the 80's the intersection of Laskin Road and Pacific Avenue did have some cut out shields on the SE Corner.  It showed US 60 going both ways on Pacific with individual shields on a white post (the original VDOT type of posts) and an East US 58 shield for its last block to Atlantic with a straight arrow.  Then at Atlantic an erroneous US 60 shield with a double headed arrow was present at what was then implied terminus of US 58.

I do not think VA Beach cares about the routes except for I-264 and even before that interstate was extended eastward from its parent, it did not even feature a VA 44 shield at the intersection of US 60 and 22nd Street back then too.  In fact there was a LGS at VA Beach Boulevard both ways on Pacific stating that ROUTE 44 and ROUTE 64 was to use VA Beach Blvd to where it meets the former toll road to get to it and the interstate.

Virginia Beach IMO is bad with signs and gotten worse as they removed what little signs they did have.  However, Baltimore and DC suck with following routes as Albany, NY is another one.  The problem with big cities is that locals call route numbers by the street name with some not even aware of what numbers they carry like some do here in Orlando.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2016, 10:28:20 PM »

Is not Business US 58 also not signed as well in VA Beach?  I know they did not sub standardize VA Beach Blvd. like they did Laskin Road, but the fact is THEY DO NOT SIGN ANY OF ITS ROUTES!  Even US 60 is hardly signed on Pacific, and the old US 60 Business on Atlantic Avenue is no longer signed for sure.

Is there even one reassurance assembly on Laskin Road westbound before the partial "bump" interchange with I-264?  Last time I was down that way, I do not think I saw one. 

According to GSV, there is one on the eastbound side here between the "bump" and Oceanfront.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 10:32:37 PM by cpzilliacus »
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2016, 10:34:38 PM »

Virginia Beach IMO is bad with signs and gotten worse as they removed what little signs they did have.  However, Baltimore and DC suck with following routes as Albany, NY is another one.  The problem with big cities is that locals call route numbers by the street name with some not even aware of what numbers they carry like some do here in Orlando.

IMO, this is a lack of leadership on FHWA's part.  They have to lower the boom (maybe through MUTCD provisions combined with reduced federal dollars and pressure on state DOTs) that signing route numbers is not optional, even for incorporated municipalities.
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WillWeaverRVA

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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2016, 10:44:44 PM »

Is not Business US 58 also not signed as well in VA Beach?  I know they did not sub standardize VA Beach Blvd. like they did Laskin Road, but the fact is THEY DO NOT SIGN ANY OF ITS ROUTES!  Even US 60 is hardly signed on Pacific, and the old US 60 Business on Atlantic Avenue is no longer signed for sure.

Is there even one reassurance assembly on Laskin Road westbound before the partial "bump" interchange with I-264?  Last time I was down that way, I do not think I saw one. 

According to GSV, there is one on the eastbound side here between the "bump" and Oceanfront.

Oddly enough, despite that Virginia Beach does sign US 58 from other roads; the easternmost occurrence of this is the intersection of Laskin Road and Birdneck Road.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2016, 11:18:50 PM »

Is not Business US 58 also not signed as well in VA Beach?  I know they did not sub standardize VA Beach Blvd. like they did Laskin Road, but the fact is THEY DO NOT SIGN ANY OF ITS ROUTES!  Even US 60 is hardly signed on Pacific, and the old US 60 Business on Atlantic Avenue is no longer signed for sure.

Is there even one reassurance assembly on Laskin Road westbound before the partial "bump" interchange with I-264?  Last time I was down that way, I do not think I saw one. 

According to GSV, there is one on the eastbound side here between the "bump" and Oceanfront.

Oddly enough, despite that Virginia Beach does sign US 58 from other roads; the easternmost occurrence of this is the intersection of Laskin Road and Birdneck Road.

That is indeed strange.  It used to be that route numbers on roads in Virginia Beach were as good as in Fairfax County (no secondary system roads in Virginia Beach, of course), but now they seem to be neglecting primary system route number signs much like Falls Church and Alexandria and other municipalities.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2016, 06:18:31 AM »

It appears US 58 Business is no longer signed anywhere along it in either direction once you leave US 58, nor from any cross streets that I could find.  They did however put up a correct shield VA 408 sign on WB US 58 Business, years after VA 408 was decommissioned, that is in current GMSV.

By the time I lived there in 1991-93, the cutouts described by roadman65 were reduced to a single US 58 cutout on Atlantic SB and a US 60 west cutout on Pacific NB where it met Atlantic and the north end of the once-posted but unofficial US 60 Business.  US 58 and US 60 were posted at the Laskin/Pacific intersection.  There were also a few white border signs in Virginia Beach for US 58, VA 44, SR 615, and SR 806.  I'm pretty sure 58 Business was posted in a few places (though not at Pacific) when I lived there.

Mike
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2016, 06:52:28 AM »

I remember on VA Secondary 615 there was in 1982 erroneous US 58 shields northbound at VA Beach Blvd.  Latest GSV shows that to be unsigned.  It might of not been Business US 58 signing, but at least back then.

You figure with it being a tourist area, that the city would sign all the US and Secondary routes at least near the oceanfront.   The fact is that old signs were once there, that they did not even replace them when their cycle was up, but chose not to install new one's in its place shows total carelessness.

That is not only in VA Beach either, Norfolk does a poor job of signing US 60 through the junction of VA 168 now that you have to zig zag due to that continuous curb preventing you from making that left right after the VA 168 merge.    Plus Fredericksburg still signing the business routes of US 1 and US 17 as mainline while the actual US 1 mainline was STILL US 1 Alternate.  The last time I saw that was 2003 more than 30 years after the alternate route was decommissioned and still in 2013 ten years later you have this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3186123,-77.4719928,3a,75y,208.82h,89.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssebqdsIY7shFaaDeJrceOg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
thus making it over 40 years of error.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2016, 07:29:12 AM »

Quote
You figure with it being a tourist area, that the city would sign all the US and Secondary routes at least near the oceanfront.

Not really necessary, contrary to some belief.  Most tourists use 264 to get to the Oceanfront, which is well signed.  Once on the Oceanfront, route numbers aren't really necessary because you're only dealing with Atlantic Ave, Pacific Ave, and the numbered streets that begin at Rudee Inlet.  If people can't figure that simple of a street grid system out, they probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.

Quote
Norfolk does a poor job of signing US 60 through the junction of VA 168 now that you have to zig zag due to that continuous curb preventing you from making that left right after the VA 168 merge.

Unless signs have gone missing since they made the change (about a dozen years ago), I would disagree with this.  Signage as recently as 2 years ago made it pretty clear where you had to turn to continue on WB 60.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2016, 08:28:56 AM »

Quote
You figure with it being a tourist area, that the city would sign all the US and Secondary routes at least near the oceanfront.

Not really necessary, contrary to some belief.  Most tourists use 264 to get to the Oceanfront, which is well signed.  Once on the Oceanfront, route numbers aren't really necessary because you're only dealing with Atlantic Ave, Pacific Ave, and the numbered streets that begin at Rudee Inlet.  If people can't figure that simple of a street grid system out, they probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.

Quote
Norfolk does a poor job of signing US 60 through the junction of VA 168 now that you have to zig zag due to that continuous curb preventing you from making that left right after the VA 168 merge.

Unless signs have gone missing since they made the change (about a dozen years ago), I would disagree with this.  Signage as recently as 2 years ago made it pretty clear where you had to turn to continue on WB 60.


GMSV shows no indication US 60 west requires leaving Ocean View, although Mason Creek is well posted for US 60 both directions, as well as Tidewater Dr NB telling you how to get to US 60 east.

The US 1 ALT Fredericksburg BGS is still there as of this morning.  But this is the only erroneous posting involving US 1 in the city.  US 17 Business is no longer posted at all with US 1 Business other than at the north end and there are US 17 mainline shields along US 1 mainline near VA 3 (this has never been part of US 17-anything)

Mike
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2016, 11:28:01 AM »

I do remember US 58 Business being signed on a BGS at the eastbound Laskin Road and Virginia Beach Boulevard split.
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2016, 11:30:41 AM »

I do remember US 58 Business being signed on a BGS at the eastbound Laskin Road and Virginia Beach Boulevard split.

This is still the case
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Re: End of US 58 in Virginia Beach
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2016, 12:51:00 PM »

It appears US 58 Business is no longer signed anywhere along it in either direction once you leave US 58, nor from any cross streets that I could find.  They did however put up a correct shield VA 408 sign on WB US 58 Business, years after VA 408 was decommissioned, that is in current GMSV.

By the time I lived there in 1991-93, the cutouts described by roadman65 were reduced to a single US 58 cutout on Atlantic SB and a US 60 west cutout on Pacific NB where it met Atlantic and the north end of the once-posted but unofficial US 60 Business.  US 58 and US 60 were posted at the Laskin/Pacific intersection.  There were also a few white border signs in Virginia Beach for US 58, VA 44, SR 615, and SR 806.  I'm pretty sure 58 Business was posted in a few places (though not at Pacific) when I lived there.

Mike

Well, apparently sometime before September 2011 an erroneous US 58 (non-Business) posting appeared near the beginning of US 58 Business at the intersection of Virginia Beach Blvd and one of Laskin Rd's frontage roads...

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8440749,-76.0376744,3a,75y,178.49h,75.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smewETtm4TwFwayQUp9rQNA!2e0!5s20150901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
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Will Weaver
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"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2

 


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