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Author Topic: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)  (Read 12550 times)

kphoger

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2017, 12:38:46 PM »

Back when the states controlled DST, it end on the last Sunday in September in the Northeast.  In other areas it ended as early as Labor Day weekend.

States controlled DST?  I always thought that was a country-wide thing.  How would one know when they went from one state to another North & South what time it was?

You have discovered why it stopped being a state-by-state thing :)

Often there would be signs posted at state borders.


The question remains valid for international borders.  No signs tell you what the DST rules are when crossing from one country to another (at least the borders I've crossed).
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kalvado

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2017, 01:00:28 PM »

Back when the states controlled DST, it end on the last Sunday in September in the Northeast.  In other areas it ended as early as Labor Day weekend.

States controlled DST?  I always thought that was a country-wide thing.  How would one know when they went from one state to another North & South what time it was?
You have discovered why it stopped being a state-by-state thing :)

Often there would be signs posted at state borders.


The question remains valid for international borders.  No signs tell you what the DST rules are when crossing from one country to another (at least the borders I've crossed).


This would be important only if you're in the country during daylight time change. Then you can rely on local news / hosts / hotel desk to help you out.
Besides, your phone is still likely to get time update from network, even if you have limited roaming. Last, but not the least - ask Almighty Google...
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jeffandnicole

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2017, 01:01:37 PM »

Back when the states controlled DST, it end on the last Sunday in September in the Northeast.  In other areas it ended as early as Labor Day weekend.

States controlled DST?  I always thought that was a country-wide thing.  How would one know when they went from one state to another North & South what time it was?
It  is fairly common that once your flight lands there is an announcement along the lines of "Welcome to XXX, local time is..., temperature outside.... ". ANd these days your cell phone would take care of the issue by itself.
Usually that helps (but once upon a time I got screwed up flying to ORD and driving to Indiana...)

But that's more a time zone thing vs. a DST thing.
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vdeane

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2017, 01:22:08 PM »

I like DST, though I think it could start later and finish earlier. I usually wake up at 6:55am for school/co-op, and right now, the sunrises at 6:45am which is nice. However, once DST starts this weekend, sunrise will be pushed back to around 7:40am. It's kind of sad waking up in the morning when its still dark out :/

Dark waking is my main issue with DST.
I am using a brilliant novel discovery to combat that. It is called "light bulb". Price is pretty steep, $1-2 a piece - but they can really do some wonders with illumination. You should save a bit and try one yourself. It really changes night into day!

 :rolleyes:

Electric light is nowhere near as effective as sunlight at waking people.  Seattle doesn't get the return to dark waking after DST starts, but we get it for about 6 weeks in winter (depending on what time you need to get up).  It's a hard time of year.

Yeah, electric light isn't even in the same league as natural sunlight.  If anything, turning on the light next to my bed when my alarm goes off only serves to EMPHASIZE the fact that I got up when it still looked like midnight outside.  And around here, that's fully half the year.

Of course, I'm a natural night owl.  I'd go to bed around 2-3 AM and wake up around 9-11 AM every day if I could.  Alas, I have to work if I want to avoid things like being homeless and starving to death, and employers don't cater to my whacked out circadian rhythm.
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02 Park Ave

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2017, 01:25:22 PM »

Prior to 1967 the states, or even cities, did control DST.  Twenty-one states did not have it.
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kkt

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2017, 01:32:41 PM »

When daylight savings time dates were under state control, neighboring states would often come to agreement between themselves and adopt the same dates to change.  But there were a few oddballs.
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jp the roadgeek

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2017, 04:31:02 PM »

It would suck for western Mass. 
They might consider splitting the state, with Boston to Worcester in Atlantic, accompanied by Maine, N.H., and R.I.

CT is considering going full year EDT (AST).  Would only make sense if the rest of the northeast say east of a line from Ottawa, down I-81 to I-64 then down to the NC/VA border west of Richmond did
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kphoger

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2017, 04:51:15 PM »

Back when the states controlled DST, it end on the last Sunday in September in the Northeast.  In other areas it ended as early as Labor Day weekend.

States controlled DST?  I always thought that was a country-wide thing.  How would one know when they went from one state to another North & South what time it was?
You have discovered why it stopped being a state-by-state thing :)

Often there would be signs posted at state borders.


The question remains valid for international borders.  No signs tell you what the DST rules are when crossing from one country to another (at least the borders I've crossed).


This would be important only if you're in the country during daylight time change. Then you can rely on local news / hosts / hotel desk to help you out.
Besides, your phone is still likely to get time update from network, even if you have limited roaming. Last, but not the least - ask Almighty Google...

As I mentioned, though, it's happened to me.  I crossed the Mexican border when neither country was yet on DST, then crossed back again when only the USA was on DST.  Relying on local news, Google, etc. only helps if you have access to those things—and that it even occurs to you that the rules are different.  It never occurred to any of the ten people I was driving with that the DST rules might be different.

Time zone and DST differentials also affect public transportation schedules.  In 1998, Chihuahua switched time zones but none of my atlases reflected that change (until very recently, actually).  In 2001, I booked a flight to El Paso, having researched intercity bus schedules in Mexico ahead of time (this was shortly after 9/11, so my flight times ended up changing a LOT meanwhile, but whatever).  Arriving in Juárez, I discovered the local time was not what I thought it was.  If the switch had occurred the other way, I would have missed the last bus of the day from Cd Chihuahua to my final destination; fortunately for me, the switch occurred so it was advantageous for me.  On the return trip, however, I needed to shell out some extra cash for an express bus back to Juárez due to having one hour less for travel than I had anticipated.
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Scott5114

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2017, 11:33:12 PM »

I used to work a schedule that required me to be at work at 1am. That meant waking up somewhere from 6pm to 11pm and going to bed somewhere between 9am and 12pm.

I was able to adapt to that after a little practice and some equipment (blackout shades, melatonin, caffeine). The real challenge was people insisting on scheduling things like training classes, doctor appointments, meetings, etc. at times like 2pm that were in the middle of my sleeping time no matter when I went to bed. It wasn't the fact that I had my sleep schedule at an odd time that was difficult, it was changing away from that schedule and then changing back that was hard.

Waking up in the dark is something people could adapt to if they felt the need to put in the effort. I did it because I was going from a $20k/year job to a $32k/year job and I was more than happy to put in the effort. If we all consistently woke up in the dark then it would probably not be anything anyone even thought about. But it becomes an issue when we have to wake up in the dark for X weeks of the year because it's a change.

(Note that this doesn't address edge cases like seasonal affective disorder, etc.)
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kalvado

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2017, 11:02:29 AM »

Not sure if that is DST related - although timing is close:
I just saw a few VMSes with "STAY AWAKE / STAY ALIVE" message...
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slorydn1

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2017, 12:23:22 PM »

My day/night schedule changes every two weeks. 2 weeks of 0600-1800 and 2 weeks of 1800-0600. A small little change like going from EST to EDT is nothing to me. All I know is I spend the entire winter going to and coming home from work in the dark no matter what shift I am on. During the summer it is daylight both ways regardless of shift.

I only bitch about the time change if:
A) I am the one stuck working nights when we go from Daylight to Standard as I am stuck working 13 hours instead of 12 (and I can only put 12 down on my time sheet).
-or-

B) I am the one stuck working days when we go from Standard to Daylight as I lose that hour of sleep. This one isn't as bad as it sounds as all I do is cut out an hour of post work BS Saturday Night and go to bed an hour earlier so it doesn't kick my ass as bad when I wake up at 0500 Sunday morning.

If it happens like its going to happen this year, on my weekend off, then it is an absolute non issue (especially since I just completed my two weeks of days and don't have to be back to work until 1800 Monday Night).


Back in the fall I got lucky for the first time in years, I was working the night we went from Daylight to Standard so I only had to work 11 hours while still logging 12 on my time sheet.


I have been working this schedule for almost 20 years now and its so normal to me I have had none of the issues that the circadian doomsayers predict will happen to us if we work a jacked up schedule like this. I sleep when its time to sleep, I am awake when its time to be awake.
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kkt

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2017, 12:38:29 PM »

You work 13 hours but are only allowed to report and get paid for 12?  Sounds like a complaint to your state's Dept. of Labor is in order.  That's theft of wages.
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vdeane

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2017, 12:56:00 PM »

It's probably due to a software limitation.  If the software requires reporting when you start/end or punching in/out, then it would specifically need DST flags to recognize the correct number of hours.  Not sure how many places would have this issue, so it might be easier for the company to just say "it should even out in the long term" and leave it be.
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slorydn1

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2017, 12:59:45 PM »

You work 13 hours but are only allowed to report and get paid for 12?  Sounds like a complaint to your state's Dept. of Labor is in order.  That's theft of wages.


Nope. Exempt government employee and all of that stuff. They do make up for it if you are lucky enough to be working that shift in the fall (you get that hour back). In any event, we get paid the same either way since we don't get overtime (in money, we do get it in comp time that we can use to take off from work and not use vacation or sick) so its just not worth fighting. FWIW I seem to remember someone (a sheriff's deputy) lodging that very complaint about 15 or so years ago, and he lost.
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Rothman

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2017, 01:05:45 PM »

Yeah, as long as you're getting comp time, there's not much to complain about in that regard, then.
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slorydn1

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2017, 01:28:58 PM »

It's probably due to a software limitation.  If the software requires reporting when you start/end or punching in/out, then it would specifically need DST flags to recognize the correct number of hours.  Not sure how many places would have this issue, so it might be easier for the company to just say "it should even out in the long term" and leave it be.

Our system is actually simpler than that. There is no clock to punch. One doesn't log the start time or end time only the number of hours worked on that date. When Payroll gets our time sheets they merely key in those hours worked (or hours of comp/sick/vacation used) and our balances are adjusted based on that.
For our purposes a date doesn't start/end at Midnight, either-it starts/ends at 0600. I'm off today, but if I were to be working tonight at 1800 for example I would put down 12 hours for March 10th even though in your eyes I'd actually be working 6 hours on March 10th and 6 hours on March 11th.
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kkt

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2017, 01:47:02 PM »

Yeah, if you're paid in comp time there's not much of a case.  Sorry.
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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2017, 02:10:33 PM »

It's probably due to a software limitation.  If the software requires reporting when you start/end or punching in/out, then it would specifically need DST flags to recognize the correct number of hours.  Not sure how many places would have this issue, so it might be easier for the company to just say "it should even out in the long term" and leave it be.

Our time entry software has exactly that: a field called "DST Flag" that has "Off DST" and "On DST" as the only options. It only appears during the week before and the week after the time change and you simply select whether we are on or off DST for every time punch you enter. As a practical matter it's irrelevant because the office is closed on weekends, but if someone had to work overnight Saturday, that flag is how the system would get the hours right.
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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2017, 02:42:45 PM »

Yeah, if you're paid in comp time there's not much of a case.  Sorry.


He said he's an exempt employee. Even without comp time there wouldn't be a case. Employers don't have to pay overtime for exempt/salaried employees.
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cabiness42

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2017, 03:48:44 PM »

Sunday in Terre Haute, IN, the sunrise will be 8:06 am and the sunset 7:53 pm.  That's just absolutely ridiculous to have daylight shifted by that much.  Indiana either needs to go back to not observing DST or move to Central time. 
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kalvado

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2017, 03:53:32 PM »

Sunday in Terre Haute, IN, the sunrise will be 8:06 am and the sunset 7:53 pm.  That's just absolutely ridiculous to have daylight shifted by that much.  Indiana either needs to go back to not observing DST or move to Central time.
But, honestly speaking, this is a fairly reasonable timing for normal day - sun goes up about morning commute, and stays up for some time after evening commute...
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cabiness42

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2017, 04:01:13 PM »

Sunday in Terre Haute, IN, the sunrise will be 8:06 am and the sunset 7:53 pm.  That's just absolutely ridiculous to have daylight shifted by that much.  Indiana either needs to go back to not observing DST or move to Central time.
But, honestly speaking, this is a fairly reasonable timing for normal day - sun goes up about morning commute, and stays up for some time after evening commute...

No, that's not anywhere near reasonable.  Most schools start at or before 8:00 and there's no reason to have kids going to school in the dark except when the days are really short in Dec-Jan when it's pretty much unavoidable. 

It's really sad that sunrises after 8am have come to be perceived as normal.  It's the farthest thing from it.
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kalvado

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2017, 04:06:23 PM »

Sunday in Terre Haute, IN, the sunrise will be 8:06 am and the sunset 7:53 pm.  That's just absolutely ridiculous to have daylight shifted by that much.  Indiana either needs to go back to not observing DST or move to Central time.
But, honestly speaking, this is a fairly reasonable timing for normal day - sun goes up about morning commute, and stays up for some time after evening commute...

No, that's not anywhere near reasonable.  Most schools start at or before 8:00 and there's no reason to have kids going to school in the dark except when the days are really short in Dec-Jan when it's pretty much unavoidable. 

It's really sad that sunrises after 8am have come to be perceived as normal.  It's the farthest thing from it.

Kids in the dark... There is no argument that can beat safety!!! of kids!!!!   
Given that even crossing the road is now a no-go for KIDS! because it ENDANGERS!!! them - why dark is that big of a problem?
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vdeane

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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2017, 05:07:22 PM »

I think most people have their morning commute BEFORE 8.  And, as mentioned, it sucks to wake up when it's still dark out.
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Re: The annual DST thread (2017 edition)
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2017, 05:29:39 PM »

If you've spent more than an hour a year arguing over DST, then you've already let the terrorists win.

I've said before that most of this leaves me unfazed; varying work hours, weekly travel time zones, shifting meal and sleep are already part of the job.

I think most people have their morning commute BEFORE 8.  And, as mentioned, it sucks to wake up when it's still dark out.

Given the choice, I would rather have extra daylight after work.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 05:38:30 PM by formulanone »
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