DST (2018)

[tradephoric]

This is why we shouldn't be artificially changing our clocks to make it be darker when children are getting up in the morning–which is exactly what DST does.  Abolish DST.

Hawaii and Arizona has essentially abolished DST - since they don't observe it.  Nothing is stopping the other 48 states from joining Hawaii and Arizona in running standard time year-round.  The point is if the country wanted to abolish DST they would have done so long ago.  All the states could ban together tomorrow and say that they are going to stop observing DST.  Of course that will never ever happen because it's a horrible idea.  You really think people in Boston would favor 7:25PM sunsets during the summer over 8:25PM sunsets?  By the end of the first inning at a Boston Red Sox game the sun would have already set.... by the 3rd inning it will be pitch dark out.  You really think people in Chicago would want dawn to begin at 3:41AM as opposed to 4:41AM in the summer?  Fifteen minutes after the Chicago bars close the sun would be rising. 

In what city can a teenager wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time?

That's the whole point of the American Academy of Pediatrics study.  They are arguing that early school start times (before 8:30AM) are a key modifiable contributor to insufficient sleep, as well as circadian rhythm disruption, of our nation's middle and high school students.  The reason why kids can't wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time is because school start times are too damn early.

[kphoger]

You really think people in Chicago would want dawn to begin at 3:41AM as opposed to 4:41AM in the summer? 

I'm not sure I've ever heard someone complain that the sun came up too early.  And yes, I used to live in Chicago.

Hawaii and Arizona has essentially abolished DST ... All the states could ban [sic] together tomorrow and say that they are going to stop observing DST.  Of course that will never ever happen because it's a horrible idea. 

Hawaii and Arizona didn't think it was a horrible idea.

[NWI_Irish96]

This is why we shouldn't be artificially changing our clocks to make it be darker when children are getting up in the morning–which is exactly what DST does.  Abolish DST.

Hawaii and Arizona has essentially abolished DST - since they don't observe it.  Nothing is stopping the other 48 states from joining Hawaii and Arizona in running standard time year-round.  The point is if the country wanted to abolish DST they would have done so long ago.  All the states could ban together tomorrow and say that they are going to stop observing DST.  Of course that will never ever happen because it's a horrible idea.  You really think people in Boston would favor 7:25PM sunsets during the summer over 8:25PM sunsets?  By the end of the first inning at a Boston Red Sox game the sun would have already set.... by the 3rd inning it will be pitch dark out.  You really think people in Chicago would want dawn to begin at 3:41AM as opposed to 4:41AM in the summer?  Fifteen minutes after the Chicago bars close the sun would be rising. 

In what city can a teenager wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time?

That's the whole point of the American Academy of Pediatrics study.  They are arguing that early school start times (before 8:30AM) are a key modifiable contributor to insufficient sleep, as well as circadian rhythm disruption, of our nation's middle and high school students.  The reason why kids can't wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time is because school start times are too damn early.

It's not practical to have school start times at or after 8:30 am when parents generally have to leave the house for work well before then.

[kphoger]

This is why we shouldn't be artificially changing our clocks to make it be darker when children are getting up in the morning–which is exactly what DST does.  Abolish DST.

Hawaii and Arizona has essentially abolished DST - since they don't observe it.  Nothing is stopping the other 48 states from joining Hawaii and Arizona in running standard time year-round.  The point is if the country wanted to abolish DST they would have done so long ago.  All the states could ban together tomorrow and say that they are going to stop observing DST.  Of course that will never ever happen because it's a horrible idea.  You really think people in Boston would favor 7:25PM sunsets during the summer over 8:25PM sunsets?  By the end of the first inning at a Boston Red Sox game the sun would have already set.... by the 3rd inning it will be pitch dark out.  You really think people in Chicago would want dawn to begin at 3:41AM as opposed to 4:41AM in the summer?  Fifteen minutes after the Chicago bars close the sun would be rising. 

In what city can a teenager wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time?

That's the whole point of the American Academy of Pediatrics study.  They are arguing that early school start times (before 8:30AM) are a key modifiable contributor to insufficient sleep, as well as circadian rhythm disruption, of our nation's middle and high school students.  The reason why kids can't wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time is because school start times are too damn early.

It's not practical to have school start times at or after 8:30 am when parents generally have to leave the house for work well before then.

Well, the obvious solution is that employers, schools, public transportation authorities, gyms, and coffee shops should all change their hours of operation.  That's so much simpler than going through all the hassle of no longer changing our clocks twice a year.

[tradephoric]

Well, the obvious solution is that employers, schools, public transportation authorities, gyms, and coffee shops should all change their hours of operation.  That's so much simpler than going through all the hassle of no longer changing our clocks twice a year.

If we keep with the status quo, over the next 20 years people will change their clocks 40 times (and deal with sleep disruptions that a time change leads to).  If we go to permanent DST in this county, people would adjust their schedules once as they get accustomed to living under permanent DST.  What sounds simpler and less of a hassle... shifting 40 times over the next few decades or shifting your schedule just once?  Never changing a clock again sounds simpler. 

In the end, the European Union has vowed to get rid of the time changes.  Assuming they are successful i see no scenario where America doesn't join them and get rid of the time changes as well.  Really the debate is over. No time changes is coming to Europe and it's soon to follow in America.

[hotdogPi]

Well, the obvious solution is that employers, schools, public transportation authorities, gyms, and coffee shops should all change their hours of operation.  That's so much simpler than going through all the hassle of no longer changing our clocks twice a year.

If we keep with the status quo, over the next 20 years people will change their clocks 40 times (and deal with sleep disruptions that a time change leads to).  If we go to permanent DST in this county, people would adjust their schedules once as they get accustomed to living under permanent DST.  What sounds simpler and less of a hassle... shifting 40 times over the next few decades or shifting your schedule just once?  Never changing a clock again sounds simpler. 

Sleep disruptions and clock changing already happen more than twice per year – the former when going east or west a significant distance, and the latter when adjusting the clock for being a few minutes ahead or behind, or when the power goes out.

[kphoger]

Well, the obvious solution is that employers, schools, public transportation authorities, gyms, and coffee shops should all change their hours of operation.  That's so much simpler than going through all the hassle of no longer changing our clocks twice a year.

If we keep with the status quo, over the next 20 years people will change their clocks 40 times (and deal with sleep disruptions that a time change leads to).  If we go to permanent DST in this county, people would adjust their schedules once as they get accustomed to living under permanent DST.  What sounds simpler and less of a hassle... shifting 40 times over the next few decades or shifting your schedule just once?  Never changing a clock again sounds simpler. 

In the end, the European Union has vowed to get rid of the time changes.  Assuming they are successful i see no scenario where America doesn't join them and get rid of the time changes as well.  Really the debate is over. No time changes is coming to Europe and it's soon to follow in America.

I agree that we should stop changing our clocks twice a year.  What you quoted was my sarcasm.  I'm suggesting, however, that we abolish DST rather than implement permanent DST.  Permanent DST just makes people more likely to have to get up before dawn, which is undesirable.

[tradephoric]

I agree that we should stop changing our clocks twice a year.  What you quoted was my sarcasm.  I'm suggesting, however, that we abolish DST rather than implement permanent DST.  Permanent DST just makes people more likely to have to get up before dawn, which is undesirable.

Currently 96% of states prefer to observe DST in the summer over standard time (only Arizona and Hawaii opt out of DST).  During the winter nobody seems happy.  If DST is made permanent, people like yourself will complain that the sun rises too late.  With the current setup, people complain that the sun sets too early.  That isn't a fabrication - New England states have seriously debated changing to the Atlantic Time Zone so that the sun doesn't set too early during the winter months.   Seeing that everyone seems miserable no matter what time setup is chosen during the winter, let's stick with what makes people happy during the summer... again 96% of states prefer Daylight Saving Time.

The other reason to choose permanent DST is that states would still have the option to opt out.  With standard-time the only way states could change the sunrise/sunset times is if they successfully petition the federal government to change time-zones in their state (but that would require federal approval... a much messier process than a state just opting out of DST).   If you seriously don't want to deal with biannual time changes, the only practical solution is permanent DST.  Abolishing DST would create an onslaught of states petitioning the federal government to change time zones, and that would get very messy.  Permanent DST = state choice.  Abolishing DST = government control.

[webny99]

In what city can a teenager wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time?

I used to be able to (albeit just barely - and my alarm was always set for earlier than 8).
Granted, I went to a private school, and public schools tend to start significantly earlier.

[english si]

That's the whole point of the American Academy of Pediatrics study.  They are arguing that early school start times (before 8:30AM) are a key modifiable contributor to insufficient sleep, as well as circadian rhythm disruption, of our nation's middle and high school students.  The reason why kids can't wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time is because school start times are too damn early.

And, as the sun plays a major role in setting circadian rhythms, if it rose an hour later than now in winter when sunrises happen later (OK, because the clocks go back so late in fall, in some places it's late October that has latest sunrise), that time would move to 9am...

It's not practical to have school start times at or after 8:30 am when parents generally have to leave the house for work well before then.

We're talking teenagers, not kindergarteners!

[tradephoric]

That's the whole point of the American Academy of Pediatrics study.  They are arguing that early school start times (before 8:30AM) are a key modifiable contributor to insufficient sleep, as well as circadian rhythm disruption, of our nation's middle and high school students.  The reason why kids can't wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time is because school start times are too damn early.

And, as the sun plays a major role in setting circadian rhythms, if it rose an hour later than now in winter when sunrises happen later (OK, because the clocks go back so late in fall, in some places it's late October that has latest sunrise), that time would move to 9am...

Teenagers in the most populous cities in the country who wake up at 8AM during the shortest day of the year would be waking up AFTER dawn has begun (that's assuming the country is on permanent DST).  Dawn breaks, rooster crows, you get up... what's so unnatural about that?  Of the 15 most populous cities in America, only teenagers in Columbus would be waking up before dawn on the shortest day of the year.  So why would it be so much better for teenagers to wake up at 9AM if the country went to permanent DST?

[kphoger]

Dawn breaks, rooster crows, you get up... what's so unnatural about that?

You obviously haven't spent much time around roosters.   

The whole premise of roosters crowing at the break of dawn is unnatural.  Believe me, I wish that's the way it were.  They crow all ... freaking ... night ... long!

Of the 15 most populous cities in America, only teenagers in Columbus would be waking up before dawn on the shortest day of the year.

Students waking up at 8 AM is completely unreasonable, even if classes didn't start till 8:30 AM.  (Which, as has been mentioned, isn't very reasonable either because most parents start work by then.)  Getting out of bed, having breakfast, getting cleaned up and dressed, gathering things, waiting at the bus stop, riding the bus to school–the morning routine takes longer than 30 minutes.  You need to get it out of your head that dawn being before or after 8 AM matters, because it doesn't.

[english si]

Dawn breaks, rooster crows, you get up... what's so unnatural about that?

Nothing's inherently unnatural about waking up at dawn (though "at the crack of dawn" is a phrase meaning really early that getting up then is an annoyance or an admirable achievement! refs: 1, 2, 3). Not that anyone was questioning this.

My point was simple:

• as you say - teenagers finding waking up at 8am difficult.
• This is because they need sleep post-dawn.
• You want to move these late dawns to an hour later by having year round DST.
• Therefore the time you gave for where they still find it difficult moves back an hour - ie 9am.

It's really not that hard to understand.

[NWI_Irish96]

Dawn breaks, rooster crows, you get up... what's so unnatural about that?

Nothing's inherently unnatural about waking up at dawn (though "at the crack of dawn" is a phrase meaning really early that getting up then is an annoyance or an admirable achievement! refs: 1, 2, 3). Not that anyone was questioning this.

My point was simple:

• as you say - teenagers finding waking up at 8am difficult.
• This is because they need sleep post-dawn.
• You want to move these late dawns to an hour later by having year round DST.
• Therefore the time you gave for where they still find it difficult moves back an hour - ie 9am.

It's really not that hard to understand.

If teenagers need sleep post-dawn, then we should be moving clocks farther backwards, not forwards, so we can have dawn early enough that teenagers can have post-dawn sleep and still get to school by 8:30.

[jeffandnicole]

I've mostly heard that teens need 8 or 9 hours of sleep. They don't necessary need to be any certain time. If the kids went to bed at 9pm and woke up at 6am, they've gotten the sleep they need.

The issue arises when they're staying up till midnight or 1am on the phone, playing games on the computer, etc.  Then yeah they need to wake up at 8am or later, but that's due to them staying up late the night before.  If they stayed up till 3am playing games, an 8am wakeup call will still be early for them.

[Scott5114]

Abolishing DST is a half-assed solution. The real solution is to abolish time itself.

[vdeane]

Dawn breaks, rooster crows, you get up... what's so unnatural about that?

Everything, for those of us who are true night owls and need at least some post-dawn sleep.  Only a morning lark would think that moving dawn to when night owls wake up is a service to night owls.

I've mostly heard that teens need 8 or 9 hours of sleep. They don't necessary need to be any certain time. If the kids went to bed at 9pm and woke up at 6am, they've gotten the sleep they need.

The issue arises when they're staying up till midnight or 1am on the phone, playing games on the computer, etc.  Then yeah they need to wake up at 8am or later, but that's due to them staying up late the night before.  If they stayed up till 3am playing games, an 8am wakeup call will still be early for them.

Studies have shown that teenagers naturally shift to the night owl end of the spectrum, in addition to needing 9-9.5 hours of sleep each night.

[jakeroot]

Abolishing DST is a half-assed solution. The real solution is to abolish time itself.

What if we just got rid of time zones? Everyone use GMT.

[kalvado]

Abolishing DST is a half-assed solution. The real solution is to abolish time itself.

What if we just got rid of time zones? Everyone use GMT.

Discussed upthread. The serious downside I see is that some people (Hawaii, Australia, new zealand, to some extent even US west coast) would have date change in the middle of the day 
It makes a lot of sense to turn calendar while most people are asleep.

[jakeroot]

Abolishing DST is a half-assed solution. The real solution is to abolish time itself.

What if we just got rid of time zones? Everyone use GMT.

Discussed upthread. The serious downside I see is that some people (Hawaii, Australia, new zealand, to some extent even US west coast) would have date change in the middle of the day 
It makes a lot of sense to turn calendar while most people are asleep.

There's also the problem of knowing if it's an appropriate time to contact someone, since 1400 could be in the middle of the night!

[kalvado]

Abolishing DST is a half-assed solution. The real solution is to abolish time itself.

What if we just got rid of time zones? Everyone use GMT.

Discussed upthread. The serious downside I see is that some people (Hawaii, Australia, new zealand, to some extent even US west coast) would have date change in the middle of the day 
It makes a lot of sense to turn calendar while most people are asleep.

There's also the problem of knowing if it's an appropriate time to contact someone, since 1400 could be in the middle of the night!

In the day of e-mail and facebook this is only that big of an issue. Phone calls go either to relatives - and you likely know what is a good time to call (and phone is in mute for the night); or to businesses - and then worst case scenario is listening to "our customer service hours are 22 to 7  GMT" message.

[20160805]

they just seemed to conclude that culturally teenagers in this country don't go to bed till around 11PM

...which is totally dependent on other factors.

If parents are really concerned about their children's well-being, then they should get them to bed on time.

I agree.  If children and adults can get up at 6:00, so can teenagers.  I've also read that teens who have bedtimes before 22:00 are 20% less likely to be depressed or suicidal than those who didn't.  And as someone who's been going to bed at 21:00 since I was 13, I can't say I disagree.

This is why we shouldn't be artificially changing our clocks to make it be darker when children are getting up in the morning–which is exactly what DST does.  Abolish DST.

Hawaii and Arizona has essentially abolished DST - since they don't observe it.  Nothing is stopping the other 48 states from joining Hawaii and Arizona in running standard time year-round.  The point is if the country wanted to abolish DST they would have done so long ago.  All the states could ban together tomorrow and say that they are going to stop observing DST.  Of course that will never ever happen because it's a horrible idea.  You really think people in Boston would favor 7:25PM sunsets during the summer over 8:25PM sunsets?  By the end of the first inning at a Boston Red Sox game the sun would have already set.... by the 3rd inning it will be pitch dark out.  You really think people in Chicago would want dawn to begin at 3:41AM as opposed to 4:41AM in the summer?  Fifteen minutes after the Chicago bars close the sun would be rising. 

In what city can a teenager wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time?

That's the whole point of the American Academy of Pediatrics study.  They are arguing that early school start times (before 8:30AM) are a key modifiable contributor to insufficient sleep, as well as circadian rhythm disruption, of our nation's middle and high school students.  The reason why kids can't wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time is because school start times are too damn early.

It's not practical to have school start times at or after 8:30 am when parents generally have to leave the house for work well before then.

Another excellent counterpoint to these crazies.

I've mostly heard that teens need 8 or 9 hours of sleep. They don't necessary need to be any certain time. If the kids went to bed at 9pm and woke up at 6am, they've gotten the sleep they need.

The issue arises when they're staying up till midnight or 1am on the phone, playing games on the computer, etc.  Then yeah they need to wake up at 8am or later, but that's due to them staying up late the night before.  If they stayed up till 3am playing games, an 8am wakeup call will still be early for them.

Yup.  I needed 7 at that age and had zero problems whatsoever with 21:00 to 5:00 (then again, even now I don't have a cellphone).

[vdeane]

Abolishing DST is a half-assed solution. The real solution is to abolish time itself.

What if we just got rid of time zones? Everyone use GMT.

Discussed upthread. The serious downside I see is that some people (Hawaii, Australia, new zealand, to some extent even US west coast) would have date change in the middle of the day 
It makes a lot of sense to turn calendar while most people are asleep.

There's also the problem of knowing if it's an appropriate time to contact someone, since 1400 could be in the middle of the night!

In the day of e-mail and facebook this is only that big of an issue. Phone calls go either to relatives - and you likely know what is a good time to call (and phone is in mute for the night); or to businesses - and then worst case scenario is listening to "our customer service hours are 22 to 7  GMT" message.

Businesses have meetings and phone calls all the time.  Looking up what time zone a place is in is a lot easier (and probably easier to remember) than remembering what hours every single place does business in.  Most business at NYSDOT that isn't done in meetings is done over the phone.

they just seemed to conclude that culturally teenagers in this country don't go to bed till around 11PM

...which is totally dependent on other factors.

If parents are really concerned about their children's well-being, then they should get them to bed on time.

I agree.  If children and adults can get up at 6:00, so can teenagers.  I've also read that teens who have bedtimes before 22:00 are 20% less likely to be depressed or suicidal than those who didn't.  And as someone who's been going to bed at 21:00 since I was 13, I can't say I disagree.

This is why we shouldn't be artificially changing our clocks to make it be darker when children are getting up in the morning–which is exactly what DST does.  Abolish DST.

Hawaii and Arizona has essentially abolished DST - since they don't observe it.  Nothing is stopping the other 48 states from joining Hawaii and Arizona in running standard time year-round.  The point is if the country wanted to abolish DST they would have done so long ago.  All the states could ban together tomorrow and say that they are going to stop observing DST.  Of course that will never ever happen because it's a horrible idea.  You really think people in Boston would favor 7:25PM sunsets during the summer over 8:25PM sunsets?  By the end of the first inning at a Boston Red Sox game the sun would have already set.... by the 3rd inning it will be pitch dark out.  You really think people in Chicago would want dawn to begin at 3:41AM as opposed to 4:41AM in the summer?  Fifteen minutes after the Chicago bars close the sun would be rising. 

In what city can a teenager wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time?

That's the whole point of the American Academy of Pediatrics study.  They are arguing that early school start times (before 8:30AM) are a key modifiable contributor to insufficient sleep, as well as circadian rhythm disruption, of our nation's middle and high school students.  The reason why kids can't wake up at 8 AM and still make it to school on time is because school start times are too damn early.

It's not practical to have school start times at or after 8:30 am when parents generally have to leave the house for work well before then.

Another excellent counterpoint to these crazies.

I've mostly heard that teens need 8 or 9 hours of sleep. They don't necessary need to be any certain time. If the kids went to bed at 9pm and woke up at 6am, they've gotten the sleep they need.

The issue arises when they're staying up till midnight or 1am on the phone, playing games on the computer, etc.  Then yeah they need to wake up at 8am or later, but that's due to them staying up late the night before.  If they stayed up till 3am playing games, an 8am wakeup call will still be early for them.

Yup.  I needed 7 at that age and had zero problems whatsoever with 21:00 to 5:00 (then again, even now I don't have a cellphone).

False.
http://theconversation.com/the-biological-reason-why-its-so-hard-for-teenagers-to-wake-up-early-for-school-88802

[english si]

I've also read that teens who have bedtimes before 22:00 are 20% less likely to be depressed or suicidal than those who didn't.

Perhaps because their abnormal biology means that they aren't bullied by adults/society who think that regular teenage biology is some sort of moral failing?

And as someone who's been going to bed at 21:00 since I was 13, I can't say I disagree.

This is like saying "well I'm an Olympic Sprinter, so everyone can do a sub-10 second 100 metre dash".

You are an extreme outlier demanding that people match your experience.

[Scott5114]

Abolishing DST is a half-assed solution. The real solution is to abolish time itself.

What if we just got rid of time zones? Everyone use GMT.

Discussed upthread. The serious downside I see is that some people (Hawaii, Australia, new zealand, to some extent even US west coast) would have date change in the middle of the day 
It makes a lot of sense to turn calendar while most people are asleep.

There's also the problem of knowing if it's an appropriate time to contact someone, since 1400 could be in the middle of the night!

If you abolish time, it's always an appropriate time to contact someone. It's also never an appropriate time to contact someone.