AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

The next forum trivia night will take place on OCTOBER 30, 2019 at 8:15 PM Eastern.

Author Topic: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes  (Read 1308 times)

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« on: December 24, 2018, 03:20:11 PM »

I find it extremely annoying when people abbreviate the names of numbered county roads in the state of Indiana (and some other nearby states) as "CR". Unfortunately, even INDOT does this a lot, especially on I3 signs at grade separations. This practice mistakenly implies that these roads have posted County Route shields (M1-6). Indiana has only a handful of shielded/numbered County Routes. About the only one of which I am presently aware is Johnson County Route 144 (relinquished State Route 144) east of State Route 37 (future I-69/SR 37). If anyone knows of any other officially designated and shielded County Route(s) in the Hoosier State, please detail in a reply below (with thanks in advance).

To show the magnitude of this problem, even the Indiana Toll Road invalidly displays Elkhart County Route 17 shields on a few of its big green signs for exit 96. But the highway at that exit is officially non-shielded County Road 17. BTW, it is correctly signed on the BGS' along US 20 at the eastern end of the St. Joseph Valley Pkwy.

There are two main numbering schemes in use for Indiana county roads: Consecutive and Hundreds-based. This excludes the numbered roads in Hamilton County (an extension of Indianapolis' E-W numbered streets) and in central & southern Lake County (extension of the numbered E-W avenues of Gary).

The proper abbreviation format for numbered County Roads in Indiana within counties using Consecutive-based numbering scheme is:
                    name CoRd znx
where "name" (optional) is the county's name (omitting the word "County" as that would be redundant),
          "CoRd" is a constant indicating this is a County Road, not a County Route (an optional space may be inserted between "Co" and "Rd"),
         "zn" the number of the road (odd for N-S, even for E-W),
and    "x" (optional) is a one-letter suffix for intermediate or diagonal roads.

The proper abbreviation format for numbered County Roads in Indiana within counties using Hundreds-based numbering scheme is:
                    name CoRd qq zzzn d
where "name" (optional) is the county's name (omitting the word "County" as that would be redundant),
          "CoRd" is a constant indicating this is a County Road, not a County Route (an optional space may be inserted between "Co" and "Rd"),
          "qq" (Knox County only) is the quadrant within Knox County (omitted in all other counties & for Knox County non-diagonals),
         "zzzn" the number of the road
and    "d" is the one-letter* cardinal direction indicating this road's relation to the center point of the county's numbering grid (intersection of baseline & meridian),
               * = Exception: "E-W" for roads on the county's baseline & "N-S" for roads on the county's meridian.

Counties that use the Consecutive numbering schemes use odd numbers for north-south roads and even ones for east-west ones. Intermediate and/or diagonal roads have a suffix (e.g., DeKalb CoRd 11A). Generally, these schemes assign the westernmost N-S road in the county the number 1 and increase each subsequent one-mile by 2. The southernmost E-W road will have the number 2 and also increase each subsequent one-mile by 2. Intermediate and/or diagonal roads will have a suffix (e.g., DeKalb CoRd 11A).

Counties using Hundreds-based schemes proceed outward by 100 for each mile from the county's baseline (0 E-W) or its meridian (0 N-S). Thus, County Road 300 West (CoRd 300 W) would be 3 miles west of the county meridian, and 5 miles west of CoRd 200 E. One advantage of this system over consecutive numbering is that distance for intermediate roads can usually be easily estimated (e.g., CoRd 150 N would be 3.25 miles north of CoRd 175 S). The main disadvantage is that the property address directional can confuse the issue. Many maps, both printed and online, are not familiar with Indiana's system and often mislabel such roads. An address of 5200 West County Road 200 North can be (and often is) misrepresented as "5200 North CR 200" or "5200 County Rd 200 NW". Also, many counties will give names to the roads on the county's baseline or on their meridian rather than using County Road 0 North-South or County Road 0 East-West. Please note that Knox County is an exception, as many of its County Roads are oriented on 45° diagonals. Those that are use a quadrant prefix ahead of the number and directional (e.g. CoRd SE 300 S), while those that aren't diagonals use the normal convention (e.g. Knox CoRd 900 W).

Be aware that if a particular County Road has an U.S. Highway and/or an Indiana State Road designated on it, its official name will generally change to "U.S. Highway zzn" or "State Road zzn" as applicable. Once all higher classification routes leave, the name will usually revert back to a County Road name. Also note that many counties have begun naming County Roads outside of these traditional numbering schemes (for ITS or Emergency Management purposes, to avoid confusion), or never used numbers in the first place. If such a road now has a name, it should be used in place of the numeric designation, but if the renaming was recent, the old CoRd number can be listed parenthetically to provide continuity.

One last thing, Indiana law places responsibility for streets & roads on a county line with the county to the north or west. Thus, many border roads that appear to have two names, one for each county, really should not.

Confused yet? You won't be after this episode of Soap:sombrero:

Edited by author to correct one sentence.
Edited again to correct county responsible for maintenance. It's north and west, not north and east as I had originally posted.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 10:26:38 AM by SSR_317 »
Logged

bulldog1979

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 635
  • Age: 40
  • Last Login: November 19, 2019, 07:53:12 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2018, 11:14:51 PM »

At least where I'm from in Michigan, County Road 480 is abbreviated either "CR 480" or "Co. Rd. 480". (MDOT uses "CO RD 480" on signs.) In my home county, the numbered county roads use a black-on-white square marker. Some counties use the blue and yellow pentagons for county roads, and in others, the squares are white on green. Some counties forgo numbering their primary county roads, and there are others that only use numbers internally. In no case would "CR" be interpreted here as standing for "County Route".
Logged

tdindy88

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1416
  • Last Login: Today at 11:03:29 AM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2018, 05:13:22 AM »

I didn't know that about the responsibilities of the counties for those roads on the county line but it makes sense when I look at Marion County (Indianapolis.) The southern boundary, County Line Road appears to be a more Indianapolis-based road, the street signs are the same as those in the city. I think the construction of the road however was joint-based between Marion and Johnson Counties. Still I would guess that maintenance would be Marion County's. In fact, I recently saw a stoplight out at County Line Road and Emerson Avenue and saw Indy DPW working on it, verifying that suspicion of mine.

Meanwhile, 96th Street now has multiple roundabouts at various intersections, most of them with Carmel. It makes a lot more sense now thinking that Hamilton County manages that roadway as opposed to Marion County. The bridge over the White River there I think was done mainly by Hamilton County and there was a recent fight between Carmel and Indianapolis over new roundabouts of which Carmel said was basically their responsibility.

The western and eastern boundary roads however are more normal when placed next to their respective county. I guess Raceway Road on the west side is Marion County's and sure enough the roundabout project at Raceway and Morris was an Indianapolis project. Carroll Road on the east side then I guess is Hancock County's and little has been done with that road but that county isn't real big on major road projects nor has much suburban growth along that road to warrant it.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 07:52:52 AM by tdindy88 »
Logged

cabiness42

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1451
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Munster, IN
  • Last Login: Today at 01:29:00 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2018, 08:28:59 AM »

I find it extremely annoying when people abbreviate the names of numbered county roads in the state of Indiana (and some other nearby states) as "CR". Unfortunately, even INDOT does this a lot, especially on I3 signs at grade separations. This practice mistakenly implies that these roads have posted County Route shields (M1-6). Indiana has only a handful of shielded/numbered County Routes. About the only one of which I am presently aware is Johnson County Route 144 (relinquished State Route 144) east of State Route 37 (future I-69/SR 37). If anyone knows of any other officially designated and shielded County Route(s) in the Hoosier State, please detail in a reply below (with thanks in advance).

To show the magnitude of this problem, even the Indiana Toll Road invalidly displays Elkhart County Route 17 shields on a few of its big green signs for exit 96. But the highway at that exit is officially non-shielded County Road 17. BTW, it is correctly signed on the BGS' along US 20 at the eastern end of the St. Joseph Valley Pkwy.

There are two main numbering schemes in use for Indiana county roads: Consecutive and Hundreds-based. This excludes the numbered roads in Hamilton County (an extension of Indianapolis' E-W numbered streets) and in central & southern Lake County (extension of the numbered E-W avenues of Gary).

The proper abbreviation format for numbered County Roads in Indiana within counties using Consecutive-based numbering scheme is:
                    name CoRd znx
where "name" (optional) is the county's name (omitting the word "County" as that would be redundant),
          "CoRd" is a constant indicating this is a County Road, not a County Route (an optional space may be inserted between "Co" and "Rd"),
         "zn" the number of the road (odd for N-S, even for E-W),
and    "x" (optional) is a one-letter suffix for intermediate or diagonal roads.

The proper abbreviation format for numbered County Roads in Indiana within counties using Hundreds-based numbering scheme is:
                    name CoRd qq zzzn d
where "name" (optional) is the county's name (omitting the word "County" as that would be redundant),
          "CoRd" is a constant indicating this is a County Road, not a County Route (an optional space may be inserted between "Co" and "Rd"),
          "qq" (Knox County only) is the quadrant within Knox County (omitted in all other counties & for Knox County non-diagonals),
         "zzzn" the number of the road
and    "d" is the one-letter* cardinal direction indicating this road's relation to the center point of the county's numbering grid (intersection of baseline & meridian),
               * = Exception: "E-W" for roads on the county's baseline & "N-S" for roads on the county's meridian.

Counties that use the Consecutive numbering schemes use odd numbers for north-south roads and even ones for east-west ones. Intermediate and/or diagonal roads have a suffix (e.g., DeKalb CoRd 11A). Generally, these schemes assign the westernmost N-S road in the county the number 1 and increase each subsequent one-mile by 2. The southernmost E-W road will have the number 2 and also increase each subsequent one-mile by 2. Intermediate and/or diagonal roads will have a suffix (e.g., DeKalb CoRd 11A).

Counties using Hundreds-based schemes proceed outward by 100 for each mile from the county's baseline (0 E-W) or its meridian (0 N-S). Thus, County Road 300 West (CoRd 300 W) would be 3 miles west of the county meridian, and 5 miles west of CoRd 200 E. One advantage of this system over consecutive numbering is that distance for intermediate roads can usually be easily estimated (e.g., CoRd 150 N would be 3.25 miles north of CoRd 175 S). The main disadvantage is that the property address directional can confuse the issue. Many maps, both printed and online, are not familiar with Indiana's system and often mislabel such roads. An address of 5200 West County Road 200 North can be (and often is) misrepresented as "5200 North CR 200" or "5200 County Rd 200 NW". Also, many counties will give names to the roads on the county's baseline or on their meridian rather than using County Road 0 North-South or County Road 0 East-West. Please note that Knox County is an exception, as many of its County Roads are oriented on 45° diagonals. Those that are use a quadrant prefix ahead of the number and directional (e.g. CoRd SE 300 S), while those that aren't diagonals use the normal convention (e.g. Knox CoRd 900 W).

Be aware that if a particular County Road has an U.S. Highway and/or an Indiana State Road designated on it, its official name will generally change to "U.S. Highway zzn" or "State Road zzn" as applicable. Once all higher classification routes leave, the name will usually revert back to a County Road name. Also note that many counties have begun naming County Roads outside of these traditional numbering schemes (for ITS or Emergency Management purposes, to avoid confusion), or never used numbers in the first place. If such a road now has a name, it should be used in place of the numeric designation, but if the renaming was recent, the old CoRd number can be listed parenthetically to provide continuity.

One last thing, Indiana law places responsibility for streets & roads on a county line with the county to the north or east. Thus, many border roads that appear to have two names, one for each county, really should not.

Confused yet? You won't be after this episode of Soap:sombrero:

Edited by author to correct one sentence.

I've never seen anything telling me that the standard references are CR = County Route and CoRd = County Road.  Since Indiana has very few County Routes, I've always used CR when describing County Roads and I think the overwhelming majority of readers know that and aren't annoyed by it.  I'm not going to change because it bothers one person

You were asking for a list of designated County Routes, and in Clark County, the decommissioned state highways 111, 311 and 403 are designated and signed as County Routes of the same number. 

The toll road lessee is responsible for their signage and not INDOT.  I get that County Road 17 isn't a county route, but I don't mind the technically incorrect sign, as the quality of the road is much better than that of a typical county road and the signage is more accurate in conveying to travelers the quality of the road at that exit if not the technical designation.

While one county is responsible for the maintenance of county line roads, each county is separately responsible for numbering the houses on their side of the road, so if they choose to provide addresses using their own naming/numbering convention, that's fine.
Logged

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2018, 10:39:01 AM »

I didn't know that about the responsibilities of the counties for those roads on the county line but it makes sense when I look at Marion County (Indianapolis.) The southern boundary, County Line Road appears to be a more Indianapolis-based road, the street signs are the same as those in the city. I think the construction of the road however was joint-based between Marion and Johnson Counties. Still I would guess that maintenance would be Marion County's. In fact, I recently saw a stoplight out at County Line Road and Emerson Avenue and saw Indy DPW working on it, verifying that suspicion of mine.

Meanwhile, 96th Street now has multiple roundabouts at various intersections, most of them with Carmel. It makes a lot more sense now thinking that Hamilton County manages that roadway as opposed to Marion County. The bridge over the White River there I think was done mainly by Hamilton County and there was a recent fight between Carmel and Indianapolis over new roundabouts of which Carmel said was basically their responsibility.

The western and eastern boundary roads however are more normal when placed next to their respective county. I guess Raceway Road on the west side is Marion County's and sure enough the roundabout project at Raceway and Morris was an Indianapolis project. Carroll Road on the east side then I guess is Hancock County's and little has been done with that road but that county isn't real big on major road projects nor has much suburban growth along that road to warrant it.
My bad! It's the counties to the north and west (have now corrected original post) that maintain border roads. Raceway Rd is handled by Hendricks County and Carroll Rd (formerly County Line Road East) by Marion County. 96th Street is serviced by Hamilton & Boone counties, while County Line Road South is Marion County's responsibility. I live off of 96th (on the Indianapolis side) and will NEVER forgive the former Town (now City) of Fishers for sticking us with the ridiculous "Michigan left" at Allisonville Rd.

Roundabouts along county boundary roads require approval from all affected counties because the crossroads & approaches dip into all of them. That's why Indy forced Carmel to scale back the number of such circles along 96th west of White River. Not sure if Indy DOT had to approve Fishers' Michigan left at 96th & Allisonville, but if they did they dropped the ball big-time, IMHO.
Logged

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2018, 10:55:47 AM »


I've never seen anything telling me that the standard references are CR = County Route and CoRd = County Road.  Since Indiana has very few County Routes, I've always used CR when describing County Roads and I think the overwhelming majority of readers know that and aren't annoyed by it.  I'm not going to change because it bothers one person

You were asking for a list of designated County Routes, and in Clark County, the decommissioned state highways 111, 311 and 403 are designated and signed as County Routes of the same number. 

The toll road lessee is responsible for their signage and not INDOT.  I get that County Road 17 isn't a county route, but I don't mind the technically incorrect sign, as the quality of the road is much better than that of a typical county road and the signage is more accurate in conveying to travelers the quality of the road at that exit if not the technical designation.

While one county is responsible for the maintenance of county line roads, each county is separately responsible for numbering the houses on their side of the road, so if they choose to provide addresses using their own naming/numbering convention, that's fine.
I understand your reluctance to use my convention, and that's okay. Just think for clarity's sake my system eliminates any confusion for amateur (and some professional) map-makers and those not familiar with the Hoosier State and our idiosyncrasies. Seeing CR instead of CoRd may make some first-time visitors mistakenly look for a route shield along a road where none has ever existed.

Thanks for the info regarding Clark County Routes, it is much appreciated!

I understand about the Toll Road signage, but I believe those particular signs may have predated the leasing of the facility. Nonetheless they are incorrect, and should be corrected.

As for property addresses on either side of a county line using different road names, I would think the USPS would have to approve of that. In many cases, ZIP Code boundaries do NOT follow political boundaries, so it would follow that they would wish one road to have one name. But I think you may be correct in your take that some still differ. There's also the situation where the county boundary lies not down the middle of the nearest road, but several feet or more into one or the other county. Or a situation where the border road deviates significantly from the actual boundary for one or more stretches. There's just no "one size fits all" in these cases.
Logged

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2018, 11:20:53 AM »

At least where I'm from in Michigan, County Road 480 is abbreviated either "CR 480" or "Co. Rd. 480". (MDOT uses "CO RD 480" on signs.) In my home county, the numbered county roads use a black-on-white square marker. Some counties use the blue and yellow pentagons for county roads, and in others, the squares are white on green. Some counties forgo numbering their primary county roads, and there are others that only use numbers internally. In no case would "CR" be interpreted here as standing for "County Route".
Thanks for the info! Must be confusing for many visitors to the Great Lakes State. My main beef is that it seems too many people confuse the NAMES of roads that are numbered with the ROUTES carried along them. A shielded County Route is not the same thing as a numbered County Road, though non-road geeks far too often think they are. Only a County Route has a shield (usually the standard yellow on dark blue M1-6 pentagon).

If I'm reading your reply correctly, I believe you're saying that in a few MI counties the numbered road name matches the shielded route number, but that there is no consistency from county to county with regard to the style of signs used along them as Route trailblazers & identifiers.
Logged

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2018, 11:25:55 AM »

By the way, I neglected to mention that Indiana has NO "State Route(s)", they are properly referred to as "State Road(s)".

"You are technically correct, the BEST kind of correct!" - Head of the Central Bureaucracy to Hermes Conrad in the animated TV show Futurama
Logged

hbelkins

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13700
  • It is well, it is well, with my soul.

  • Age: 57
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Last Login: Today at 10:55:58 AM
    • Millennium Highway
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2018, 12:58:56 PM »

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.
Logged

cabiness42

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1451
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Munster, IN
  • Last Login: Today at 01:29:00 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2018, 01:03:28 PM »

I understand your reluctance to use my convention, and that's okay. Just think for clarity's sake my system eliminates any confusion for amateur (and some professional) map-makers and those not familiar with the Hoosier State and our idiosyncrasies. Seeing CR instead of CoRd may make some first-time visitors mistakenly look for a route shield along a road where none has ever existed.

Thanks for the info regarding Clark County Routes, it is much appreciated!

I understand about the Toll Road signage, but I believe those particular signs may have predated the leasing of the facility. Nonetheless they are incorrect, and should be corrected.

As for property addresses on either side of a county line using different road names, I would think the USPS would have to approve of that. In many cases, ZIP Code boundaries do NOT follow political boundaries, so it would follow that they would wish one road to have one name. But I think you may be correct in your take that some still differ. There's also the situation where the county boundary lies not down the middle of the nearest road, but several feet or more into one or the other county. Or a situation where the border road deviates significantly from the actual boundary for one or more stretches. There's just no "one size fits all" in these cases.

I'm not going to type two extra characters to put CoRd instead of CR multiplied by dozens of times.  People on this board are road-savvy enough to figure it out quickly.

The original signage for Exit 96 read "Ellkhart East" with no route shield of any kind.  The new sign with the "incorrect" shield came much later.  I still maintain that the number of people aided by being able to associate that "incorrect" shield with the kind of road it actually is, is greater than the number of people who even notice that the shield is used incorrectly, which is greater than the number of people who are bothered by its incorrect usage.  I spend a lot of time in Elkhart County and I can assure you that nobody is confused by the existence of that shield at that exit.

The USPS assigns ZIP Codes to areas, but the USPS has no part in assigning house numbers nor in naming roads.  Along any particular county line road, the USPS decides whether opposite sides of the road are assigned the same or different ZIP Codes, but that has zero correlation to each county's decision on how to name and number the road for houses on their side of the road.  I work (when not furloughed due to shutdown) for a Federal Agency that tabulates data for geographic areas so I know a fair amount about how addressing and ZIP Codes work.
Logged

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2018, 10:53:36 AM »

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.
That is exactly my point, they are not the same thing. One is a road name (County Road), without an official route designation; the other (County Route), a road that has been officially designated with a route number by the county regardless of its name and has posted M1-6 (or local equivalent) shields along it.

Your state (KY) may be unique, in that it has a lot of country roads with numbers that are shown on many maps as if they were shielded. Do they all have shields erected along them, or are the numbers only present on street sign blades (with no other name for them present)?
Logged

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2018, 11:01:20 AM »

I understand your reluctance to use my convention, and that's okay. Just think for clarity's sake my system eliminates any confusion for amateur (and some professional) map-makers and those not familiar with the Hoosier State and our idiosyncrasies. Seeing CR instead of CoRd may make some first-time visitors mistakenly look for a route shield along a road where none has ever existed.

Thanks for the info regarding Clark County Routes, it is much appreciated!

I understand about the Toll Road signage, but I believe those particular signs may have predated the leasing of the facility. Nonetheless they are incorrect, and should be corrected.

As for property addresses on either side of a county line using different road names, I would think the USPS would have to approve of that. In many cases, ZIP Code boundaries do NOT follow political boundaries, so it would follow that they would wish one road to have one name. But I think you may be correct in your take that some still differ. There's also the situation where the county boundary lies not down the middle of the nearest road, but several feet or more into one or the other county. Or a situation where the border road deviates significantly from the actual boundary for one or more stretches. There's just no "one size fits all" in these cases.

I'm not going to type two extra characters to put CoRd instead of CR multiplied by dozens of times.  People on this board are road-savvy enough to figure it out quickly.

The original signage for Exit 96 read "Ellkhart East" with no route shield of any kind.  The new sign with the "incorrect" shield came much later.  I still maintain that the number of people aided by being able to associate that "incorrect" shield with the kind of road it actually is, is greater than the number of people who even notice that the shield is used incorrectly, which is greater than the number of people who are bothered by its incorrect usage.  I spend a lot of time in Elkhart County and I can assure you that nobody is confused by the existence of that shield at that exit.

The USPS assigns ZIP Codes to areas, but the USPS has no part in assigning house numbers nor in naming roads.  Along any particular county line road, the USPS decides whether opposite sides of the road are assigned the same or different ZIP Codes, but that has zero correlation to each county's decision on how to name and number the road for houses on their side of the road.  I work (when not furloughed due to shutdown) for a Federal Agency that tabulates data for geographic areas so I know a fair amount about how addressing and ZIP Codes work.
Thanks again for your insights!

As for Elkhart County it's not the locals for which this is a problem, but visitors who are unfamiliar with the area and may be looking for an M1-6 trailblazer to confirm they are on the correct road after exiting the Toll Road. I agree, it's not a huge problem, but as a retired IT person I like to be convey information as accurately and consistently as possible. Having the abbreviation "CR" stand for two separate things drives me nuts, but I now see it is not a significant problem for many of the participants here.
Logged

1

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7329
  • UMass Lowell student

  • Age: 20
  • Location: MA/NH border
  • Last Login: Today at 12:19:26 PM
    • Flickr account
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2018, 11:10:35 AM »

Your state (KY) may be unique, in that it has a lot of country roads with numbers that are shown on many maps as if they were shielded. Do they all have shields erected along them, or are the numbers only present on street sign blades (with no other name for them present)?

Kentucky has thousands of state routes.
Logged
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US ⒔50
MA ⒐2⒉40.9⒐10⒎10⒐1⒒1⒚14⒈159
NH 27, 111A(E); NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A; CT 32; VT 5A; QC 16⒉16⒌263

Flickr

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2018, 11:25:02 AM »

Your state (KY) may be unique, in that it has a lot of country roads with numbers that are shown on many maps as if they were shielded. Do they all have shields erected along them, or are the numbers only present on street sign blades (with no other name for them present)?

Kentucky has thousands of state routes.

My bad, I misinterpreted those as county roads/routes. Those are the 4-digit ones, correct?
Logged

1

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7329
  • UMass Lowell student

  • Age: 20
  • Location: MA/NH border
  • Last Login: Today at 12:19:26 PM
    • Flickr account
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2018, 11:33:28 AM »

Your state (KY) may be unique, in that it has a lot of country roads with numbers that are shown on many maps as if they were shielded. Do they all have shields erected along them, or are the numbers only present on street sign blades (with no other name for them present)?

Kentucky has thousands of state routes.

My bad, I misinterpreted those as county roads/routes. Those are the 4-digit ones, correct?

They just have so many that they have to go into the thousands. The 4-digit routes are no different from the others.
Logged
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US ⒔50
MA ⒐2⒉40.9⒐10⒎10⒐1⒒1⒚14⒈159
NH 27, 111A(E); NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A; CT 32; VT 5A; QC 16⒉16⒌263

Flickr

kphoger

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 10838
  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 01:53:11 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2018, 12:52:33 PM »

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.

That's what I was thinking at first, but then it sank in.  I drew up the illustration below to help understsand the difference.



Moving from south to north along Highway 67...

Baseline Rd crosses over the highway with no interchange.
Co Rd 400 a.k.a. CR-60 crosses over the highway with no interchange.
Exit #38 could be signed as [Johnston Rd] or [CR-25] or both.
Exit #42 could be signed as [Co Rd 1200] but should not be signed as [CR-1200] because it's not a County Route.
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.

TheHighwayMan394

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2456
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Twin Ports/North Shore
  • Last Login: November 20, 2019, 07:25:48 PM
    • Patrick Lilja's Minnesconsin Highways
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2018, 01:03:30 PM »

So put that way, this kind of sounds like NY signed state routes vs. unsigned reference routes.
Logged
It sucks that you think where I’m from is whack, but as long as that’s enough to keep your ass from coming back

Clinched 2dis: 24, 35, 39, 41, 43, 76 (W), 84 (E), 88 (both), 96, 97

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2018, 01:18:41 PM »

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.

That's what I was thinking at first, but then it sank in.  I drew up the illustration below to help understsand the difference.



Moving from south to north along Highway 67...

Baseline Rd crosses over the highway with no interchange.
Co Rd 400 a.k.a. CR-60 crosses over the highway with no interchange.
Exit #38 could be signed as [Johnston Rd] or [CR-25] or both.
Exit #42 could be signed as [Co Rd 1200] but should not be signed as [CR-1200] because it's not a County Route.
Thanks, kphoger! Not to pick nits, but in an Indiana county using the Hundreds-based system, those E-W county roads would all have a suffix of "North" (or abbreviated as "N")  because they are north of the Baseline Rd (which might be named "Co Rd 0 N-S". And the N-S ones would not use letters be "Co Rd [nbr] E" with the [nbr] increasing by 100 for each road east (and west) of Meridian Rd. In counties using the Consecutive-based scheme, the N-S road you labeled as "Co Rd H" might have the name of "County Road 35" which shows the problem even more because CR 49 would run along Co Rd 35.

Nonetheless, your graphic does effectively illustrate the difference between a "Co Rd" and a "CR".
Logged

SSR_317

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 244
  • Why does FHWA hate "Exit 0"?

  • Age: 63
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: November 18, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2018, 01:22:01 PM »

So put that way, this kind of sounds like NY signed state routes vs. unsigned reference routes.
If I understand you correctly for the KY situation, yes. That's assuming NY's system of unsigned reference routes are similar in concept to a "secret" SR (i.e., state owns/maintains but does not sign). Does KY sign those 4-digit state routes?
Logged

kphoger

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 10838
  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 01:53:11 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2018, 01:48:37 PM »

So put that way, this kind of sounds like NY signed state routes vs. unsigned reference routes.

But "County Road ____" is usually signed on green street blades, because that is the name of the road.

At this location in northwestern Kansas, for example, two distinct signs are visible referring to the same road:  a green street blade for County Road 11 (abbreviated as RD 11), and the backside of a blue pentagon for County Route 407.
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.

NE2

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13902
  • fuck

  • Age: 11
  • Location: central Florida
  • Last Login: November 20, 2019, 10:10:02 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2018, 04:23:50 PM »

The biggest problem is that you're making up an abbreviation.
Logged
Florida route log | pre-1945
I will do my best to not make America hate again.
Global warming denial is barely worse than white privilege denial.

hbelkins

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13700
  • It is well, it is well, with my soul.

  • Age: 57
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Last Login: Today at 10:55:58 AM
    • Millennium Highway
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2018, 04:50:56 PM »

Any route signed with a circle/oval/ellipse in Kentucky is a state-maintained road. Most are posted, although many -- mostly city streets and frontage roads for interstates/parkways -- are not.

Although the state uses an internal system to number county roads and city streets for purposes of rural and municipal aid, no Kentucky county posts county routes with a pentagonal marker or other marker, although in my youth I did see a numbered county route marker (white square with black numbers and letters) somewhere in cave country, either Barren or Edmonson County.
Logged

MNHighwayMan

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 4152
  • Blue and gold forever!

  • Age: 27
  • Location: Des Moines
  • Last Login: Today at 01:46:04 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2018, 05:30:43 PM »

The biggest problem is that you're making up an abbreviation.

The biggest problem is that Indiana counties are making this way more difficult than they need to.
Logged

kphoger

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 10838
  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 01:53:11 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2018, 06:06:50 PM »

The biggest problem is that you're making up an abbreviation.

The biggest problem is that Indiana counties are making this way more difficult than they need to.

I don't think it's at all unique to Indiana that local roads are named something like "County Road 3200" or whatever.  I've certainly seen similar numbering schemes in both states I've lived in—Illinois and Kansas.  The whole problem could be avoided by simply signing County Routes with the pentagon shield instead of text, however.
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.

MNHighwayMan

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 4152
  • Blue and gold forever!

  • Age: 27
  • Location: Des Moines
  • Last Login: Today at 01:46:04 PM
Re: Indiana County Roads versus County Routes
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2018, 06:18:51 PM »

The problem is places like that are naming simple roads as "County Road 3200." Places I'm familiar with, such as in Iowa or Minnesota, conform to a similar system, but instead give it a name and call it something like "320th St NE." Thus, there never exists any potential confusion between "County Roads" and "County Routes." For example, in Minnesota, it might be named 320th Street on the street blades, but it's also signed with blue county route markers as, for example, county road 4.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 06:25:39 PM by MNHighwayMan »
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.