Minor things that bother you

[webny99]

"boys being boys"

Now there's an attitude that needs to die a quick death.

As parents of three boys, my wife and I actually find ourselves trying hard to keep it alive.  If we didn't, then they'd get in trouble for every little thing they do or don't do.

It's one of those statements that has a slightly different meaning to everyone you ask, but usually ends up bordering on a stereotype.

I don't have a major issue with it, but I also don't have an issue separating out hyperactive kids from actual ADHD, while also acknowledging that plenty of boys are neither hyperactive nor have ADHD.

[abefroman329]

It's one of those statements that has a slightly different meaning to everyone you ask

Yep - and I'm saying that it needs to die a quick death when it's used to handwave borderline-criminal (and criminal) behavior by white teenagers and twentysomethings.

[kphoger]

It's one of those statements that has a slightly different meaning to everyone you ask, but usually ends up bordering on a stereotype.

I actually think it can be harmful to call something that's so common among boys a "disorder"–basically, if boys are acting differently than girls, and the behavior is considered disruptive or harmful in some way, then the boys must have a disorder.  Instead, I think it's more helpful to just understand that boys' and girls' brains and development are generally different in some ways, that individuals within a gender are bound to be different from each other too, and that we shouldn't be so quick to label something a "disorder" just because it's different from some pre-existing expectation we have for how good children ought to act and think.

I'm saying that it needs to die a quick death when it's used to handwave borderline-criminal (and criminal) behavior by white teenagers and twentysomethings.

OK, I agree with that statement, and I hadn't thought of that aspect.  Yes, "boys will be boys" does get used to gloss over vandalism and other types of delinquency that really ought to be addressed head-on.  On the other hand, I suspect that such behavior might be less appealing if boys had more outlets for their energies–more opportunities to put their male-ness to use–that are within the bounds of decency and the law.  Unfortunately, providing such outlets and opportunities becomes harder work and countercultural as our society settles into an ever more docile and mild-mannered existence.

[webny99]

It's one of those statements that has a slightly different meaning to everyone you ask, but usually ends up bordering on a stereotype.

I actually think it can be harmful to call something that's so common among boys a "disorder"–basically, if boys are acting differently than girls, and the behavior is considered disruptive or harmful in some way, then the boys must have a disorder.  Instead, I think it's more helpful to just understand that boys' and girls' brains and development are generally different in some ways, that individuals within a gender are bound to be different from each other too, and that we shouldn't be so quick to label something a "disorder" just because it's different from some pre-existing expectation we have for how good children ought to act and think.

But - what am I missing here? - It seems to me that "boys will be boys" is the pre-existing expectation for how children - boys specifically - ought to act and think.

[kphoger]

But - what am I missing here? - It seems to me that "boys will be boys" is the pre-existing expectation for how children - boys specifically - ought to act and think.

I think it's becoming less and less the expectation.  And, at some point, we started labeling a lot of normal boy behavior as a disorder.

[Scott5114]

I think the presupposition that males and females are supposed to be running different software is the root cause of some of society's ills. It certainly messed me up in my teenage years because society had primed me to see girls as this terrifying Other Type Of Person that I didn't know how to interact with. Once I figured out girls are just people and have basically the same motivations and thought processes I do, it made life a lot easier for me. It seems like some people never make that realization, and that leads to things like sexism in hiring/promotion practices, sexual assault, and so on.

A lot of things about gender that were just taken as granted when I was a kid in the 90s seem really weird looking back at them as an adult. I remember one of the fast-food chains would sometimes offer "girl toys" and "boy toys" in the kids' meal. Most of the time they did this it would be something like, a Transformers toy in the boys' and a toy horse or something in the girls'. I was never into Transformers but that was my gender's assigned toy, so I ended up with enough Transformers I never played with. I finally got up the courage to ask Mom if I could please have the plastic horse instead. Fortunately for me, she didn't consider it to be a big deal, but I know some parents would have freaked the hell out over a boy playing with a girls' toy.

[kphoger]

The best approach is probably the middle road:

1.  Understanding that, in general, as a whole, boys and girls are different, and we should be very hesitant to create labels that end up stuck on boys a lot more than stuck on girls (and also vice versa).  So, for example, considering that boys are much more likely than girls to be diagnosed with ADHD, perhaps we might need to re-evaluate how such a "disorder" is defined.

2.  Understanding that individuals rarely fit the general stereotype in every degree, and we should be very hesitant to apply societal gender role expectations to people with too heavy a hand.  And, in fact, doing so might create real damage in the name of preventing some sort of imagined damage.

[jeffandnicole]

"boys being boys"

Now there's an attitude that needs to die a quick death.

You never heard this growing up in the 80s? The attitude has been around for decades. It wasn't something made up on the fly. And I'm not talking about criminal activity that you somehow translated this into. I'm talking about boys running around, getting dirty in the mud, playing cops and robbers, stuff that on the 90s and 00s suddenly became taboo and caused too many kids to be stuck inside, playing video games, and watched the obesity rate rise.

[kphoger]

"boys being boys"

Now there's an attitude that needs to die a quick death.

You never heard this growing up in the 80s? The attitude has been around for decades. It wasn't something made up on the fly. And I'm not talking about criminal activity that you somehow translated this into. I'm talking about boys running around, getting dirty in the mud, playing cops and robbers, stuff that on the 90s and 00s suddenly became taboo and caused too many kids to be stuck inside, playing video games, and watched the obesity rate rise.

Yes, but the phrase is also used to justify more egregious behavior.  It's used both ways.

[abefroman329]

And I'm not talking about criminal activity that you somehow translated this into.

So you've never heard "boys will be boys" used to justify, I dunno, rape, assault, vandalism?  When the perpetrator is a white teenager who's good at a sport and/or goes to church?

boys running around, getting dirty in the mud, playing cops and robbers, stuff that on the 90s and 00s suddenly became taboo and caused too many kids to be stuck inside, playing video games, and watched the obesity rate rise.

(a) Tell me you don't have kids without telling me you don't have kids.  My son runs around, gets dirty in the mud, plays cops and robbers, etc.
(b) Why the fuck can't little girls do this?

[ran4sh]

The answer to your question (b) is that they can but they often don't want to.

[Scott5114]

The best approach is probably the middle road:

1.  Understanding that, in general, as a whole, boys and girls are different, and we should be very hesitant to create labels that end up stuck on boys a lot more than stuck on girls (and also vice versa).  So, for example, considering that boys are much more likely than girls to be diagnosed with ADHD, perhaps we might need to re-evaluate how such a "disorder" is defined.

This is actually quite a bit more complicated than that, especially in the case of ADHD. The same disorder tends to present itself differently in males and females. This leads it to be under-diagnosed in females, as the symptoms females present tend to be things like brain fog, distractability, executive dysfunction, etc. and less physical things like hyperactivity/rowdiness/loudness/fidgetiness. (My guess is that the presence of testosterone encourages such things.)

This actually is a symptom (ha!) of a bigger problem that plays out all across the medical industry. Practitioners tend to latch on to a certain set of symptoms as the canonical set of symptoms of a certain disorder or disease. Unfortunately, these tend to be based on how the disorder presents itself in white males, as that is the type of patient who is most readily available to university medical research programs. The result is that doctors are trained basically how to treat white males, and if those diagnostic criteria do not happen to work well on women or people of different races (even simple things like a rash will look quite a bit different on black skin than it does on white), conditions will end up getting under-diagnosed. This applies all over the body, not just the mind; a lot of what we think are classic symptoms of a cardiac problem in fact apply more to males than they do females.

My friend that I mentioned upthread with ADHD has also said he sees his symptoms in a mutual female friend of ours, so she's gotten tested for it. It's taken months to get the results back. I suspect that the results from a 30-year-old woman are quite a bit different than those from the 8-year-old boys they're used to treating. And, of course, if she does come back positive, it will mean she'll have had the disorder for decades and just nobody thought to test her because of a perception that ADHD was a boys-only affliction.

[ran4sh]

Mostly true, but there aren't biological differences between races though. (like there are between sexes)

[Scott5114]

Mostly true, but there aren't biological differences between races though. (like there are between sexes)

That's mostly right, but I was referring more to diagnostic criteria there, especially external appearance-based ones, which do differ based on race. Something like the telltale target-shaped inflammation pattern of Lyme disease is much harder to pick up on dark skin. In that case, doctors need to use different tools, but some of them are just like "I see no target pattern, so this person doesn't have Lyme" and move on.

There are some genetic differences that lead to members of certain races to be more or less susceptible to certain diseases (e.g. the genes that cause sickle-cell anemia are more likely to be present in black patients), but that's a whole other ball of wax.

[jeffandnicole]

"boys being boys"

Now there's an attitude that needs to die a quick death.

You never heard this growing up in the 80s? The attitude has been around for decades. It wasn't something made up on the fly. And I'm not talking about criminal activity that you somehow translated this into. I'm talking about boys running around, getting dirty in the mud, playing cops and robbers, stuff that on the 90s and 00s suddenly became taboo and caused too many kids to be stuck inside, playing video games, and watched the obesity rate rise.

Yes, but the phrase is also used to justify more egregious behavior.  It's used both ways.

And I'm not talking about criminal activity that you somehow translated this into.

So you've never heard "boys will be boys" used to justify, I dunno, rape, assault, vandalism?  When the perpetrator is a white teenager who's good at a sport and/or goes to church?

boys running around, getting dirty in the mud, playing cops and robbers, stuff that on the 90s and 00s suddenly became taboo and caused too many kids to be stuck inside, playing video games, and watched the obesity rate rise.

(a) Tell me you don't have kids without telling me you don't have kids.  My son runs around, gets dirty in the mud, plays cops and robbers, etc.
(b) Why the fuck can't little girls do this?

Wow.  I didn't realize how a previously commonly used phrase gets some guys panties in a bunch.  Especially when I clearly referenced it as being a common phrase 30 or 40 years ago, not something I personally go around saying. But enjoy your freak out there.

[webny99]

On the subject of ADHD, does anyone have first hand experience of someone being diagnosed with ADHD and then later finding out the diagnosis was incorrect?

I would be really surprised if that's a frequent occurrence, I know a few people with ADHD and it never even occurred to me that it might have been a misdiagnosis. Anyone that has spent a lot of time with someone that has ADHD would probably know that the difference between being an active/hyperactive kid and actually having ADHD is a fairly bright line. So when it comes to whether ADHD is over- or under-diagnosed... I don't think there's a very strong case for either one.

[webny99]

"boys being boys"

Now there's an attitude that needs to die a quick death.

You never heard this growing up in the 80s? The attitude has been around for decades. It wasn't something made up on the fly. And I'm not talking about criminal activity that you somehow translated this into. I'm talking about boys running around, getting dirty in the mud, playing cops and robbers, stuff that on the 90s and 00s suddenly became taboo and caused too many kids to be stuck inside, playing video games, and watched the obesity rate rise.

Yes, but the phrase is also used to justify more egregious behavior.  It's used both ways.

Speaking of which, what's the age at which the phrase "boys being boys" no longer applies? 12, maybe, 14 at the most? I was surprised to see it used in reference to teens/twenties.

[kevinb1994]

I was diagnosed with ADD first, then it turned out, at a later age, that this diagnosis was no longer suitable, so I was diagnosed with ADHD.

[vdeane]

On the subject of ADHD, does anyone have first hand experience of someone being diagnosed with ADHD and then later finding out the diagnosis was incorrect?

I would be really surprised if that's a frequent occurrence, I know a few people with ADHD and it never even occurred to me that it might have been a misdiagnosis. Anyone that has spent a lot of time with someone that has ADHD would probably know that the difference between being an active/hyperactive kid and actually having ADHD is a fairly bright line. So when it comes to whether ADHD is over- or under-diagnosed... I don't think there's a very strong case for either one.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case for the people who "grow out" of ADHD, especially given that a study years ago found that the youngest kids in a given grade at school are more likely to be diagnosed.  I wonder if many of those people never had ADHD in the first place, and were just less mature than the older kids they were being compared to.

[Scott5114]

Meanwhile the symptoms I have that match up with ADHD have gotten worse as I've gotten older.

[GaryV]

Speaking of which, what's the age at which the phrase "boys being boys" no longer applies? 12, maybe, 14 at the most? I was surprised to see it used in reference to teens/twenties.

Yes, 12-14, HS football team excepted.

[abefroman329]

Speaking of which, what's the age at which the phrase "boys being boys" no longer applies? 12, maybe, 14 at the most? I was surprised to see it used in reference to teens/twenties.

Yes, 12-14, HS football team excepted.

Double-exempted if you're also in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

[ZLoth]

While I don't like the Daylight Saving Time as much as anyone, the fact is that it is going to take an act of Congress to kill off this long-time bad idea.

There are various ways nowadays for devices to set the time by themselves, whether it be through the NIST's atomic clock, GPS, Radio Data Broadcasting System (RDBS) radios, Network Time Protocol (NTP), or your mobile network. In fact, anything that comes into my home now that has a clock needs to set itself. Yes, it costs a little bit more, but it's well worth it for accurate time. Yes, this will annoy the people who insist on setting their watches 5-10 minutes fast.

[Scott5114]

When there's multiple versions of a song on YouTube, and the auto-play algorithm insists on hitting them all. Oh, say, you just listened to "Deacon Blues" by Steely Dan? Well, you seem like you might be the sort of person who might like to hear "Deacon Blues" by Steely Dan! And, our calculations indicate that another song you might really like is "Deacon Blues" by Steely Dan. And after you're done listening to that, may we suggest..."Deacon Blues" by Steely Dan?

[snowc]

"boys being boys"

Now there's an attitude that needs to die a quick death.

As parents of three boys, my wife and I actually find ourselves trying hard to keep it alive.  If we didn't, then they'd get in trouble for every little thing they do or don't do.

It's one of those statements that has a slightly different meaning to everyone you ask, but usually ends up bordering on a stereotype.

I don't have a major issue with it, but I also don't have an issue separating out hyperactive kids from actual ADHD, while also acknowledging that plenty of boys are neither hyperactive nor have ADHD.

me too. have this same issue.