When do you plan to switch to an EV?

[Max Rockatansky]

This was a question that I found myself pondering and I was curious what the group thoughts might be?

For me my situation probably is somewhat unique given my regular office is 38 miles from home and I drive a lot for recreation.  I have ten years in where I'm at and I need another ten for a maxium pension.  That being the case I plan on working where I am so I can get close enough to my max pension as possible.  For the time being I see issues that wouldn't make an EV worth it in my circumstances:

-  I tend to buy daily drivers that are closer to entry level segments.  Essentially I want something out of a daily driver I can wrack 200,000 plus miles on and toss away when I'm done with it.  Right now the EV market is usually in the 40k range on the lower end and that's way too much money to spend on something disposable. 
-  The amount of recreational driving coupled with longer commuting makes charging time and infrastructure an issue.  Right now charging speeds are not fast enough to really be able to drive on a whim for a day off or facilitate a quick change of plans.  Even in normal places charging infrastructure in my area (Central California) is basically non-existent and probably will remain so for a very long time.

It seems that there won't be much of a internal combustion presence in the non-commercial automotive market and it will be mandated out in California by 2035.  For sure I will need one more internal combustion engine daily driver and possibly a second depending how fast I would use it up.  Hopefully by then the cost of EVs will go down, the charge times will be reduced, charging infrastructure will be somewhat standardized and the range will be consistently over 400 miles reliably.  It kind of feels as though the EV market right now caters heavily to urban commuters that want near luxury vehicles.

[Bruce]

When I can afford a decent one, but before the incentives run out. Washington is rolling out new rebates soon that might signal that it's time to get a hybrid.

Going full EV would require the right kind of car for me. Something with traditional controls and not burdened with all the proprietary shit that Tesla adds on.

[Max Rockatansky]

When I can afford a decent one, but before the incentives run out. Washington is rolling out new rebates soon that might signal that it's time to get a hybrid.

Going full EV would require the right kind of car for me. Something with traditional controls and not burdened with all the proprietary shit that Tesla adds on.

I didn't list that in my post but that's something that bothers me with a lot of current EVs.  I get it that I'm not the target customer but I don't want a tech piece to drive around with lots of things I don't need or have to relearn how to use.  Oddly Tesla for the most part (Cyber Truck...) has had the most traditional styling up to now with EVs.  It seems like a lot of newer EVs are purposely meant to look "techy" or I guess what someone things is edgy?

[formulanone]

Now that they've been out in the general public for a few years, I've been wondering what the long-term battery life is for these vehicles. Can the battery assembly have 90% (or greater?) of its initial range after five years of daily usage? How about 7-10 years?

How much is that replacement battery assembly going to set me back? Since there's less maintenance costs than an internal-combustion engine, am I just saving for that battery replacement?

How much is the range affected by using the A/C and heating system? I live in a climate in which I'll use one or the other for at least 80% of the time.

How long/much for a full or half charge in the future? This stuff isn't going to be free forever.

I'd like to see the range set to 400-500 miles for ideal driving circumstances, due to driving habits and A/C usage. That's a trip's worth for work plus something extra for some around-the-town errands.

Lastly, I really don't need a lot of gimmicks which I'll rarely need and that might suck out of the range. Having the ability to lighten the load would be nice, but not a deal-breaker. But at the rates new technology is added to cars, I think that just adds to physical bloat, complexity, and technical difficulties due to internal vehicle dependencies on its proper operation.

[Max Rockatansky]

Now that they've been out in the general public for a few years, I've been wondering what the long-term battery life is for these vehicles. Can the battery assembly have 90% (or greater?) of its initial range after five years of daily usage? How about 7-10 years?

How much is that replacement battery assembly going to set me back? Since there's less maintenance costs than an internal-combustion engine, am I just saving for that battery replacement?

How much is the range affected by using the A/C and heating system? I live in a climate in which I'll use one or the other for at least 80% of the time.

How long/much for a full or half charge in the future? This stuff isn't going to be free forever.

I'd like to see the range set to 400-500 miles for ideal driving circumstances.

I think the long term life span on batteries will always be an issue with EVs to some degree.  The biggest question I have is how much will it cost for EV batteries to be replaced?  How long will OEM replacement batteries be produced or at least have manufacturer support?  It doesn't seem like this is the circumstance that will bode well if one is included to hang onto a car for ten-plus year.

[Rothman]

When EVs are as convenient as gas vehicles in terms of refueling, mileage and towing.

[AsphaltPlanet]

I'm becoming more tempted for the idea of a plug in hybrid. The RAV4 Prime has 300 horses and sips fuel. Seems like a great option for a daily driver.

[J N Winkler]

I suspect I won't make the switch until it becomes actively inconvenient and expensive to hang onto an internal-combustion car.  I see several ways this could happen--gas stations becoming as scarce as EV charging points are now, fuel taxes being increased to incentivize the transition to all-electric, and so on.

[oscar]

Now that they've been out in the general public for a few years, I've been wondering what the long-term battery life is for these vehicles. Can the battery assembly have 90% (or greater?) of its initial range after five years of daily usage? How about 7-10 years?

How much is that replacement battery assembly going to set me back? Since there's less maintenance costs than an internal-combustion engine, am I just saving for that battery replacement?

I can't speak to the experience with EVs. But the initial battery concerns about hybrids seem to have been overblown. The hybrid battery in my Prius (an early-generation model that's not plug-in) is still going strong after 315K miles and a dozen years. And the cost of replacing the hybrid battery, net of what you get for recycling the old battery, I've heard is in the $3K range. High, but not necessarily fatal, especially if the rest of the car is in good condition.

While that's semi-encouraging, the battery for a pure EV, with no help from a gasoline engine, will need to be much larger, and perhaps have a shorter lifespan.

I don't expect to be getting an EV anytime soon. No charging station yet near my apartment, no personal garage to install my own (which in any case would go against environmental objections to single-family housing), high-speed charging stations aren't yet as speedy as refueling a gas vehicle, not as prevalent as gas stations on the non-Interstate/freeway routes I prefer, and EVs don't yet have enough range to get to some favorite destinations from the nearest other fast-charging station. The infamous user-unfriendliness of Teslas (such as locking the wheels, when you need a tow) is also disconcerting, but other EV brands that don't make the news as often might be better.

Odds are all these things won't change in my lifetime, considering my age.

[Scott5114]

My current plan is to drive my Pontiac until it falls apart. When that happens, I plan to at least seriously consider an electric vehicle, as I am an ideal candidate for one unless my life somehow seriously changes between now and then. My job (which I have an ownership stake in, so it's not likely to be something that changes) is 20 miles one way, so it's in range of an EV. I own a garage I could install charging equipment in (and I can install solar panels to offset the increase to the electric bill), so charging is only apt to be an issue on a long road trip. I could just plug the car in overnight, which makes the wait time for charging irrelevant (and since I wouldn't be stopping at gas stations anymore, I'd actually spend less of my own time supplying energy to the car). Meanwhile, the lower maintenance requirements are very appealing–I'm not the sort of person who takes joy in tinkering with their own car.

The main questions will be availability and affordability by then. I have never bought a car new, and have little interest in doing so due to the massive premium doing so requires paying. I haven't ruled out a plugin hybrid, but the only situation in which my next car is full ICE would be if there simply are no electric cars of any kind available for a reasonable price when I am in a position to buy.

[Dirt Roads]

I've probably mentioned before, but I've had a running discussion with an acquaintance (friend of a friend) who owns a large truck-trick outfit in the Southeast.  We are both waiting on a diesel-hybrid pickup truck to hit the market.  It would be nice to have full EV capabilities to run ZEV (zero emissions) mode in environmentally sensitive areas (and rush hour).  I also mentioned that it would be nice to trick out the diesel-hybrid with a three-phase 240VAC inverter for backup house power in the case of major outages (which have occurred here about 6 times in the past 20 years). 

Amazingly, Ford recently came out with a 9.6kW Pro Power Onboard inverter option for its F-150 Lightning EV pickup.  This is only available with the extended range 19kW battery.  However, it only comes with one 240VAC outlet.  Even if you get a NEMA 6-30LR receptacle, the best you can get on the other end is about 6.5kW (somewhere between 6600 and 7200 kVA).  That's enough to handle our house (we do a pretty good job of load shedding), but it doesn't make good use of entire 9.6kW power output capability.  Unfortunately, an EV doesn't function as an inverter very long, especially when you don't have any power to plug in for a recharge.  Anybody out there want to touch the $86K price tag?  Way too hot for El Cheapo here.

[corco]

I suspect I won't make the switch until it becomes actively inconvenient and expensive to hang onto an internal-combustion car.  I see several ways this could happen--gas stations becoming as scarce as EV charging points are now, fuel taxes being increased to incentivize the transition to all-electric, and so on.

That's pretty much where I'm at. I expect to buy a new primary car in the latter half of this decade which will very likely still be a gasoline vehicle, then expect that car to last until 2040 or so at which point I'm assuming it will become difficult to buy a new gas vehicle.

[JayhawkCO]

I likely will get at least a hybrid when for my next car.  Especially since the Wrangler 4xe's are out and I'm sure they'll be improved in 8-10 years.  I definitely want a car that can get me where I want to go in the mountains, and would prefer to do so more environmentally friendly.

[vdeane]

I suspect I won't make the switch until it becomes actively inconvenient and expensive to hang onto an internal-combustion car.  I see several ways this could happen--gas stations becoming as scarce as EV charging points are now, fuel taxes being increased to incentivize the transition to all-electric, and so on.

I expect to be that way as well.  Maybe I'll get a hybrid for my next car; it's not like manuals are easy to find these days, anyways.  But while I do find EVs cool from a technology perspective, there are a few things that would have to happen for me to actually buy one:
1. I would need home charging at my apartment and when I visit my parents, and destination charging at any hotels I stay at on the road.
2. I would need the range to be long enough to get me between my apartment and my parents or between lunch and to/from home and/or hotels when on the road, even in winter, even when the car is older (I'm the type to keep a car until the car is no longer practical to maintain, so about 15 years or so).
3. I would need charging to be common enough and fast enough that I could just charge on a lunch break without making the break longer or restricting where I could get lunch, without having to prematurely wear out the battery by charging too much (which ties into point 2).
4. The price would have to come down (my current car was less than $20k, so even the cheaper EVs that aren't just compliance cars are much higher).
5. It would need to be a car that I could navigate and drive myself.  EVs seem to be leaning into the self-driving push, especially when it comes to navigation.  Especially with Teslas, but also with many other EVs, we're moving towards a paradigm where the car chooses the route and where to charge, not you.  Obviously, that doesn't work for a roadgeek.

Speaking of Tesla, they're far too much like Apple for my tastes.  They basically operate on the mantra of "we're forcing you to use X, redesigning Y feature, or removing Z because Elon thinks it's a great idea, and if you don't like it, too bad".  Reminds me of things like Apple removing the headphone jack, and not in a good way.  The cars are basically designed as tech devices that can be driven more than cars that happen to run on batteries.  As someone who doesn't really like the current state of the tech industry and it's way of moving further and further away from letting people control their "own" devices, that's not a positive.  There's a reason why I won't go anywhere near newer versions of Windows outside of work.

[1995hoo]

I hope not to be in the car market for quite some time, but if and when the time comes, I'm willing to consider an EV. "Consider" is the key word. Of course the biggest thing is how the market is constantly changing, so there's no way to know what will be available when the time comes. The biggest thing I find off-putting right now is the combination of lower range than a gas car and the longer charging time compared to the time needed to fill a gas tank. A common answer to that is "use an ICE vehicle for longer trips." That's certainly an option, and we currently have four ICE cars, but I don't think it's unreasonable to feel that if I'm going to spend over $50,000 on an EV, I want that vehicle to be my primary vehicle for all purposes. I don't want to spend $50,000 for something that's limited to local driving. On the plus side, since I don't normally have a commute, day-to-day range isn't an issue. (Edited to add: The comment from vdeane about manual transmissions resonates with me. Three of our current cars are manuals and I still very much prefer shifting for myself. I know the odds are that my next car won't have a manual, but it's a factor I'll consider when I look at what's available.)

For folks interested in EVs, there was an issue of Car and Driver this summer that was primarily devoted to that subject (the "EV of the Year" issue; if you're interested, I can find it upstairs to tell you which month's issue it was). Very worthwhile read. It defined a lot of the jargon, and they also staged a thousand-mile race that looped from Ann Arbor through Cincinnati, Morgantown, Pittsburgh, and northeastern Ohio, including an off-Interstate segment across southern Ohio. That article, in particular, was of interest to me (and I suspect to other members of this forum) because one of my concerns with an EV is whether road trips would be more limited in terms of route selection due to lack of charging points.

[Bruce]

A similar EV-vs-gas-vs-hybrid race was staged by tech reviewer MKBHD from New York City to Buffalo and back:

Spoilers: The gas car was fastest, outpacing the Tesla by 40 minutes, and the hybrid took an extra 40 minutes on top of that. The hybrid crew ran into some difficulty with broken chargers, the Tesla crew had limited selection, and the gas journey was a bit more expensive.

[GaryV]

A plug in hybrid, maybe.  Full electric - not at this time.

And it depends on what we could do for a home charger.  It would be outside, and the installation point might be difficult.

[Scott5114]

Speaking of Tesla, they're far too much like Apple for my tastes.  They basically operate on the mantra of "we're forcing you to use X, redesigning Y feature, or removing Z because Elon thinks it's a great idea, and if you don't like it, too bad".  Reminds me of things like Apple removing the headphone jack, and not in a good way.  The cars are basically designed as tech devices that can be driven more than cars that happen to run on batteries.  As someone who doesn't really like the current state of the tech industry and it's way of moving further and further away from letting people control their "own" devices, that's not a positive.  There's a reason why I won't go anywhere near newer versions of Windows outside of work.

This is an unfortunate trend that I feel like would be one of the only things that would actually be a dealbreaker to me when it comes to electric vehicles. I abhor giving such control to software companies, and don't use products like Windows that exhibit a need for it. My hope is that as more electric vehicles come on the market, especially more lower-end models, this tendency will be diminished.

The biggest thing I find off-putting right now is the combination of lower range than a gas car and the longer charging time compared to the time needed to fill a gas tank. A common answer to that is "use an ICE vehicle for longer trips." That's certainly an option, and we currently have four ICE cars, but I don't think it's unreasonable to feel that if I'm going to spend over $50,000 on an EV, I want that vehicle to be my primary vehicle for all purposes. I don't want to spend $50,000 for something that's limited to local driving.

I guess I look at it as no different than spending X dollars on a car that is not a pickup–one could argue that they don't want to spend that much money on a car that's limited to hauling no more than groceries. However, the instances where I need to haul furniture or whatever are so infrequent (no more than a two or three times per year), it makes more sense to buy a sedan, and then on the rare occasions I do need a pickup, ask for help from a friend or family member that has one, or else rent one.

Obviously, the practicality is going to differ based on how often one goes on longer trips, and to where. But even as a roadgeek I estimate that I actually get the chance to drive somewhere outside of EV range only once every few months or so. On a trip for pleasure, I don't think I'd really mind sitting in my car for 15 minutes or whatever dicking around on my phone while I wait for the car to charge. The main problem will be charging availability out in the country. But this is a problem that stands to get better rather than worse.

[CoreySamson]

My plan is to drive my CR-V for as long as I genuinely can until maintenance costs get too high for it or until my needs outgrow it (6-10 years?). By then I would very much be in the market for a reliable used plug-in hybrid, gas hybrid, or even hydrogen powered if the price comes down (RAV4 Prime, Insight, and Clarity look like genuinely good cars). I'm personally not interested in an electric car at this time, primarily because of the refueling time and the fact that if power is not readily available, then you can't charge it unless you have solar panels where you are at. Also, electric vehicles are too expensive.

That being said, I want my next car to deliver over 35 mpg combined. I admire Toyota's recent efforts to make the only engine option a hybrid (Sienna, Venza) instead of fully committing to electric.

[tolbs17]

When they are more widely distributed. My dad did consider of moving to a hybrid car but I don't know when that'll be...

[kernals12]

I just bought a 2017 Honda Accord Hybrid, I figure I'll keep it for 3-5 years and then costs will have fallen enough for me to afford an EV. I'm sick of the staggering waste of energy inherent in the internal combustion engine.

[Jim]

I'll unhelpfully add that I don't know.  Next time I'm ready to replace a vehicle, I'll weigh the options based on many of the factors mentioned by others: relative up-front and long-term costs, limitations on operating based on availability of charging, etc.  Hopefully that decision is a number of years down the line, as I'm very happy driving my A3, which just passed 58K miles today.

As far as environmental concerns, I'd also be curious about true environmental costs of each option, and how one would get an honest evaluation of such.  The oversimplified view just factors in MPG or direct emissions.  I would like to see an honest comparison that includes impacts of manufacturing and eventually safely disposing of all those batteries, the true impacts of the electricity and how it's actually generated, weighed against costs of gasoline production, distribution, and combustion.

[Scott5114]

As far as environmental concerns, I'd also be curious about true environmental costs of each option, and how one would get an honest evaluation of such.  The oversimplified view just factors in MPG or direct emissions.  I would like to see an honest comparison that includes impacts of manufacturing and eventually safely disposing of all those batteries, the true impacts of the electricity and how it's actually generated, weighed against costs of gasoline production, distribution, and combustion.

Obviously your opinion may vary, but I've come to the conclusion that the while the potential environmental impacts of battery usage (potential contamination of lithium mine sites, disposal of spent batteries) are bad, those impacts are at least limited to a localized area. If those locations are recorded, they could be remediated later as the technology to do so develops. On the other hand, emissions and their impacts are dispersed globally and are next to impossible to reverse.

[zachary_amaryllis]

when they are affordable to those of us in the bottom tier of income. i just don't have $20-$30k to shell out for a car, and can't finance it.

when i can find a used prius for $1200, i'll consider it. not likely to happen anytime soon.

[michravera]

This was a question that I found myself pondering and I was curious what the group thoughts might be?

For me my situation probably is somewhat unique given my regular office is 38 miles from home and I drive a lot for recreation.  I have ten years in where I'm at and I need another ten for a maxium pension.  That being the case I plan on working where I am so I can get close enough to my max pension as possible.  For the time being I see issues that wouldn't make an EV worth it in my circumstances:

-  I tend to buy daily drivers that are closer to entry level segments.  Essentially I want something out of a daily driver I can wrack 200,000 plus miles on and toss away when I'm done with it.  Right now the EV market is usually in the 40k range on the lower end and that's way too much money to spend on something disposable. 
-  The amount of recreational driving coupled with longer commuting makes charging time and infrastructure an issue.  Right now charging speeds are not fast enough to really be able to drive on a whim for a day off or facilitate a quick change of plans.  Even in normal places charging infrastructure in my area (Central California) is basically non-existent and probably will remain so for a very long time.

It seems that there won't be much of a internal combustion presence in the non-commercial automotive market and it will be mandated out in California by 2035.  For sure I will need one more internal combustion engine daily driver and possibly a second depending how fast I would use it up.  Hopefully by then the cost of EVs will go down, the charge times will be reduced, charging infrastructure will be somewhat standardized and the range will be consistently over 400 miles reliably.  It kind of feels as though the EV market right now caters heavily to urban commuters that want near luxury vehicles.

Where is Mich Ravera when you need him?