When do you plan to switch to an EV?

[CtrlAltDel]

That means that "what science says" can sometimes differ substantially from "what science said" a year ago.

Which is why basing public policy, any public policy, on some faith that something just IS going to be invented is foolish.  Likewise, so is basing public policy on theories about the future state of the earth.

That's why they only put up lamp posts during the night. You can't be sure the sun is going to set.

[kalvado]

That means that "what science says" can sometimes differ substantially from "what science said" a year ago.

Which is why basing public policy, any public policy, on some faith that something just IS going to be invented is foolish.  Likewise, so is basing public policy on theories about the future state of the earth.

In terms of climate change, keep in mind that the scientific theories are based upon the analysis of the evidence at hand rather than being just ideas that still need to be tested.

So you're using Roger Bacon definition of science, rather than more modern one from Karl Popper?

I am using the generally accepted definition of a scientific theory.

And which one is that?

[MikieTimT]

When a Tesla Model, Hyundai Ioniq 5, or some comparable electric AWD hatchback/CUV drop to about $20-$25K used without being clapped out.  I'm guessing that I'll be waiting a while as I don't buy new vehicles in general.  I do hope to retire in 20 years or so after all and new cars are a great way to get poor.

[kkt]

When do I plan to switch to an EV?  Well, with a little luck I've got a good long time to think about it and wait for EVs and charging networks to improve.  My internal combustion Accord is only three years old with 18k miles, so it'll probably last me 12-15 years.  God knows if I'll be alive and driving then, or even if there will be any other meaningful choice than electric.

My miles per year looks low so far.  But I enjoy road trips and would like to do more, mostly the pandemic came along and that's why my mileage is so low.

I also like to drive to a campsite in an out of the way place and sit and think and watch the stars at night.  If I charge the EV and drive it 100 miles and then park it for a week, how much charge will be left?  enough to drive the 100 miles back?

[vdeane]

When do I plan to switch to an EV?  Well, with a little luck I've got a good long time to think about it and wait for EVs and charging networks to improve.  My internal combustion Accord is only three years old with 18k miles, so it'll probably last me 12-15 years.  God knows if I'll be alive and driving then, or even if there will be any other meaningful choice than electric.

My miles per year looks low so far.  But I enjoy road trips and would like to do more, mostly the pandemic came along and that's why my mileage is so low.

I also like to drive to a campsite in an out of the way place and sit and think and watch the stars at night.  If I charge the EV and drive it 100 miles and then park it for a week, how much charge will be left?  enough to drive the 100 miles back?

I feel like that's where the EV crowd would say "you'll need to change your trip to stop at chargers in between, periodically go to a charger while camping, and/or get a campsite with power".

[kkt]

When do I plan to switch to an EV?  Well, with a little luck I've got a good long time to think about it and wait for EVs and charging networks to improve.  My internal combustion Accord is only three years old with 18k miles, so it'll probably last me 12-15 years.  God knows if I'll be alive and driving then, or even if there will be any other meaningful choice than electric.

My miles per year looks low so far.  But I enjoy road trips and would like to do more, mostly the pandemic came along and that's why my mileage is so low.

I also like to drive to a campsite in an out of the way place and sit and think and watch the stars at night.  If I charge the EV and drive it 100 miles and then park it for a week, how much charge will be left?  enough to drive the 100 miles back?

I feel like that's where the EV crowd would say "you'll need to change your trip to stop at chargers in between, periodically go to a charger while camping, and/or get a campsite with power".

Well, I hope not, because there are times when I really want the wilderness experience not shared with other campers who want the music and lots of lights at night experience.  Perhaps a hybrid with a jerrycan strapped on would work.

[Duke87]

All these issues regarding availability and speed of charging are where a plug-in hybrid starts to sound appealing. With one of those, you can run the car on purely electric power, but if you don't have time to wait for it to charge or good access to a charger, you can just fill up the gas tank and keep going. And even when burning gas, you still get the efficiency benefit of regenerative braking.

On another note, I'm waiting to see if someone will go ahead and make a car with solar panels on it. This won't generate enough electricity to fully power the car even on a sunny day in Hawaii, but it would potentially help extend the car's range and it would also allow the car to (slowly) recharge while parked even if there isn't a charger available.

[CoreySamson]

All these issues regarding availability and speed of charging are where a plug-in hybrid starts to sound appealing. With one of those, you can run the car on purely electric power, but if you don't have time to wait for it to charge or good access to a charger, you can just fill up the gas tank and keep going. And even when burning gas, you still get the efficiency benefit of regenerative braking.

^ Exactly what my thoughts are. Sadly it seems automakers are pivoting to pure EVs. I saw recently Hyundai completely disbanded their internal combustion engineering team in favor of EVs. I think the problem with plug-in hybrids is that the task of fitting a battery, electric motors, an engine, and a fuel tank means that the car does not have the seating and cargo capacity of a gas or electric car.

On another note, I'm waiting to see if someone will go ahead and make a car with solar panels on it. This won't generate enough electricity to fully power the car even on a sunny day in Hawaii, but it would potentially help extend the car's range and it would also allow the car to (slowly) recharge while parked even if there isn't a charger available.

Fisker already tried it with their Karma. The solar roof only made enough power to power certain accessories, not enough to recharge the battery.

[JREwing78]

It's obvious from reading this thread that 90% of the responders don't really have a handle on the current state of EV technology. In 2012, most of the concerns about driving an EV were absolutely true. There was no nationwide charging station network. The idea of a EV that could go 200 miles or more was a daydream (one that Tesla improbably made true).

In 2022, that all has changed, and for many drivers the EV is MORE convenient than a ICE vehicle now. 90% of the time, my Grand Cherokee drives 2.5 miles to work, and 2.5 miles home. Maybe I go out to lunch on the other side of town, and tack on another 6 or 8 miles. I could do that commute in any electric vehicle charging overnight off a 110V outlet. Even if I go back to the commute I had 10 years ago of 90-100 miles a day, an overnight charge on 220V would easily keep me charged up without having to charge at the office or hit a 3rd party charger. I literally never have to go to a 3rd party charging source until or unless I take a road trip.

Speaking of the few occasions I need to road trip, I could solve the problem by either a) renting a gas vehicle (if I didn't keep my Grand Cherokee), or b) putting in a modicum of planning to ensure I reach my charging stops and spend as little time as possible at each one, charging (with a buffer) just enough to make the next charger.

Where's the "more convenient" part come in with EVs? They don't have to get a tune-up or an oil change. No transmissions or transfer cases that require maintenance. Their brakes don't require replacement pads or rotors for many years since most braking is regenerative. Never have to go to a gas station or pay attention to how much fuel I have in it (I'm charging every night, remember). And I can charge at home for absurdly cheap relative to filling up a gas powered vehicle.

It's also just a better drive. Almost every EV has great low-end torque and has more performance than most drivers will routinely use. The battery weight sits low, and contributes to stable ride and handling. Many EVs are able to provide a frunk for additional storage space since it doesn't need to accommodate a ICE powertrain.

Out of Spec Motoring on YouTube demonstrates life with an EV really well, particularly with road trips with an EV. An example is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikheO2Nb3-k&t=4s

[JREwing78]

As for when *I* will get an EV? I'm planning to buy a house in the next couple of years; at that point I'll pick up a cheap used EV for commuter duty. My current residence and employer don't have provision to allow me to charge an EV, so it's not practical for my situation.

[kkt]

It's obvious from reading this thread that 90% of the responders don't really have a handle on the current state of EV technology. In 2012, most of the concerns about driving an EV were absolutely true. There was no nationwide charging station network. The idea of a EV that could go 200 miles or more was a daydream (one that Tesla improbably made true).

This is my point.  With an EV on a road trip you have to plan everything out - where are you going for lunch where there's a charging station.  Where are you going for the night where there's a charging station.  The joy of road trips is spontaneuously doing something unplanned and out of the way, knowing that there's gas stations just about everywhere.

No one is denying the practicality of EVs as routine short distance commuting vehicles and errand runners.

[vdeane]

It's obvious from reading this thread that 90% of the responders don't really have a handle on the current state of EV technology. In 2012, most of the concerns about driving an EV were absolutely true. There was no nationwide charging station network. The idea of a EV that could go 200 miles or more was a daydream (one that Tesla improbably made true).

In 2022, that all has changed, and for many drivers the EV is MORE convenient than a ICE vehicle now. 90% of the time, my Grand Cherokee drives 2.5 miles to work, and 2.5 miles home. Maybe I go out to lunch on the other side of town, and tack on another 6 or 8 miles. I could do that commute in any electric vehicle charging overnight off a 110V outlet. Even if I go back to the commute I had 10 years ago of 90-100 miles a day, an overnight charge on 220V would easily keep me charged up without having to charge at the office or hit a 3rd party charger. I literally never have to go to a 3rd party charging source until or unless I take a road trip.

Speaking of the few occasions I need to road trip, I could solve the problem by either a) renting a gas vehicle (if I didn't keep my Grand Cherokee), or b) putting in a modicum of planning to ensure I reach my charging stops and spend as little time as possible at each one, charging (with a buffer) just enough to make the next charger.

Where's the "more convenient" part come in with EVs? They don't have to get a tune-up or an oil change. No transmissions or transfer cases that require maintenance. Their brakes don't require replacement pads or rotors for many years since most braking is regenerative. Never have to go to a gas station or pay attention to how much fuel I have in it (I'm charging every night, remember). And I can charge at home for absurdly cheap relative to filling up a gas powered vehicle.

It's also just a better drive. Almost every EV has great low-end torque and has more performance than most drivers will routinely use. The battery weight sits low, and contributes to stable ride and handling. Many EVs are able to provide a frunk for additional storage space since it doesn't need to accommodate a ICE powertrain.

Out of Spec Motoring on YouTube demonstrates life with an EV really well, particularly with road trips with an EV. An example is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikheO2Nb3-k&t=4s

Yeah, I've noticed that some people around here seem to have exaggerated EV issues based on lack of knowledge, though I think it's also fair to say that the issues can't just be swept aside, either.  I live in an apartment, so no home charging for me.  And we're roadgeeks here, so a lot of us have long trips with a fair frequency.  I average more than one a month, sometimes nested if I decide to do a clinching daytrip on one of my trips to Rochester (a 225 mile drive each way that I currently do without stopping, by the way).  And when I'm on the road, I'd rather get lunch somewhere nicer than WalMart (and dealing with the issues Kyle regularly has with EA sounds like it would be maddening; also, it would be nice if charge stations would put the windshield squeegees there, as I'm not sure where EV owners are supposed to clean their windshield while on the road, which I currently do nearly every single time I get gas).  I suspect the crowd that goes through the drive thru and eats in the car while driving will never be happy with EV charging.  I'm also not sure why I should buy a car that's only at its best when driving around town and have to rent a car for longer trips.  My co-worker actually became a car owner specifically because the cost of renting even once every other month was more than the cost of buying a used Prius.  It's also a hassle.

I'll admit, I lucked out in having a good gas station right on my way home, so it's just a quick stop when I need to gas up.  And due to the length of my commute combined with my Civic's gas mileage, barring roadtrips that's only 1-2 times a month, depending on whether I feel like letting it run close to E or top off at around half a tank (the former in the summer, the latter in winter).  A charge stop would be far more inconvenient, especially given my lack of home charging.

Incidentally, most of what I know about EVs comes from watching Out of Spec Motoring videos.  EVs are certainly fascinating to learn about, even if they aren't for me at this time.

It's obvious from reading this thread that 90% of the responders don't really have a handle on the current state of EV technology. In 2012, most of the concerns about driving an EV were absolutely true. There was no nationwide charging station network. The idea of a EV that could go 200 miles or more was a daydream (one that Tesla improbably made true).

This is my point.  With an EV on a road trip you have to plan everything out - where are you going for lunch where there's a charging station.  Where are you going for the night where there's a charging station.  The joy of road trips is spontaneuously doing something unplanned and out of the way, knowing that there's gas stations just about everywhere.

No one is denying the practicality of EVs as routine short distance commuting vehicles and errand runners.

Heck, I plan my trips out to that degree, and even I find that the current state of charging to be an issue.  There are many trips where I have a hard enough time finding a good spot for lunch as it is, simply because my natural lunch time doesn't always fall when I'm passing through a sufficiently large urban area (and I don't like to divert too far off route for meals, either).  Having to limit lunch stops to charging locations would be even more limiting, given the current state of things.  I'll settle for McDonald's or Subway when I have to (though I haven't been to a McDonald's since the pandemic began, as many locations went drive-thru-only and I'm not sure of the current state of things), but I'm not interested in having them become my sole source of roadtrip food (given that non-Tesla cars are mostly charging at WalMart since that's where the EA stations are).

[hbelkins]

Congressman Thomas Massie lives in Lewis County, Ky. (between Maysville and South Shore/Portsmouth, Ohio), which is about an 8-hour drive to DC. He's been driving from home to DC and back since the airlines implemented various covid-related restrictions with which he disagrees. He typically drives his Tesla back and forth. I saw a recent social media comment in which he said it takes him more than 10 hours to make the drive with a couple of strategically placed/timed charging stops. I'm sure the proliferation of Sheetz charging stations helps him out. So the charging time adds a couple of hours to the trip, whereas he'd probably only have to take about 15 minutes tops for fuel-ups driving a gas or diesel vehicle.

[froggie]

Having recently tested a plug-in hybrid, I've come to the conclusion that neither it nor an EV would be practical for me given the hills, back roads, lengthy drives, and wintertime that I experience.

I'm sure the proliferation of Sheetz charging stations helps him out. So the charging time adds a couple of hours to the trip, whereas he'd probably only have to take about 15 minutes tops for fuel-ups driving a gas or diesel vehicle.

I imagine he (and like-situated EV drivers) could plug the car in when they get there and go inside to get whatever they need.  Saves some time versus us "old school gas users" who officially (i.e. legally) have to stay with the car while it's gassing up.

[Scott5114]

One thing that would make EVs far more practical for everyone would be if the batteries got smaller and lighter. If they were the size of an ICE car battery, even apartment dwellers could take them inside and charge them. If you were going on a long trip, you could just charge up six of them and swap them out as needed. Downtime wouldn't be much more than it is at a gas station, and you could do it anywhere, even on the shoulder of the road if you wanted, giving you even more freedom since you could swap out batteries even in desolate areas with no gas station.

[kalvado]

One thing that would make EVs far more practical for everyone would be if the batteries got smaller and lighter. If they were the size of an ICE car battery, even apartment dwellers could take them inside and charge them. If you were going on a long trip, you could just charge up six of them and swap them out as needed. Downtime wouldn't be much more than it is at a gas station, and you could do it anywhere, even on the shoulder of the road if you wanted, giving you even more freedom since you could swap out batteries even in desolate areas with no gas station.

Setting up charging stations is a cost a lot of apartment complexes would have to embrace at some point. Probably with pay per kwt and a fee, for an overall profit. Not that different from laundry facilities many places have.
How would that affect grid connection is another story.

[Rothman]

One thing that would make EVs far more practical for everyone would be if the batteries got smaller and lighter. If they were the size of an ICE car battery, even apartment dwellers could take them inside and charge them. If you were going on a long trip, you could just charge up six of them and swap them out as needed. Downtime wouldn't be much more than it is at a gas station, and you could do it anywhere, even on the shoulder of the road if you wanted, giving you even more freedom since you could swap out batteries even in desolate areas with no gas station.

Setting up charging stations is a cost a lot of apartment complexes would have to embrace at some point. Probably with pay per kwt and a fee, for an overall profit. Not that different from laundry facilities many places have.
How would that affect grid connection is another story.

Not enough room in the parking areas a lot of them have.

[kalvado]

One thing that would make EVs far more practical for everyone would be if the batteries got smaller and lighter. If they were the size of an ICE car battery, even apartment dwellers could take them inside and charge them. If you were going on a long trip, you could just charge up six of them and swap them out as needed. Downtime wouldn't be much more than it is at a gas station, and you could do it anywhere, even on the shoulder of the road if you wanted, giving you even more freedom since you could swap out batteries even in desolate areas with no gas station.

Setting up charging stations is a cost a lot of apartment complexes would have to embrace at some point. Probably with pay per kwt and a fee, for an overall profit. Not that different from laundry facilities many places have.
How would that affect grid connection is another story.

Not enough room in the parking areas a lot of them have.

You really don't need a lot of room to add charging to existing spots. Thing can be the size of a mailbox on a wall or a parking meter

[Jim]

There are clearly a lot of people on this thread who follow the issues related to EVs much more closely than I do.  We've talked about a lot of the limitations of the strictly plug-in vehicles.  If I was going to bet on a technology 10 or 15 years ago, I think it would have been hydrogen fuel cells.  Is there a limitation there that's been unexpectedly difficult to overcome?  I seem to recall the idea that one would simply swap out an empty hydrogen fuel cell for a full one and be on his or her way.  And that you could carry multiple cells for longer times/distances between chances to get full ones.  Is the main advantage of the plug-ins that we already have a widespread electrical grid to build on compared to some hydrogen infrastructure that would be harder to build out?  Or the plug-in vehicles are cheaper or easier to produce?

[Rothman]

One thing that would make EVs far more practical for everyone would be if the batteries got smaller and lighter. If they were the size of an ICE car battery, even apartment dwellers could take them inside and charge them. If you were going on a long trip, you could just charge up six of them and swap them out as needed. Downtime wouldn't be much more than it is at a gas station, and you could do it anywhere, even on the shoulder of the road if you wanted, giving you even more freedom since you could swap out batteries even in desolate areas with no gas station.

Setting up charging stations is a cost a lot of apartment complexes would have to embrace at some point. Probably with pay per kwt and a fee, for an overall profit. Not that different from laundry facilities many places have.
How would that affect grid connection is another story.

Not enough room in the parking areas a lot of them have.

You really don't need a lot of room to add charging to existing spots. Thing can be the size of a mailbox on a wall or a parking meter

Next time you're driving around a city, pay closer attention to the horrible parking available for a lot of the buildings. There's not even room for something the size of parking meters (and the infrastructure needed to connect such to the grid).

[1995hoo]

There are clearly a lot of people on this thread who follow the issues related to EVs much more closely than I do.  We've talked about a lot of the limitations of the strictly plug-in vehicles.  If I was going to bet on a technology 10 or 15 years ago, I think it would have been hydrogen fuel cells.  Is there a limitation there that's been unexpectedly difficult to overcome?  I seem to recall the idea that one would simply swap out an empty hydrogen fuel cell for a full one and be on his or her way.  And that you could carry multiple cells for longer times/distances between chances to get full ones.  Is the main advantage of the plug-ins that we already have a widespread electrical grid to build on compared to some hydrogen infrastructure that would be harder to build out?  Or the plug-in vehicles are cheaper or easier to produce?

Tesla claims that their vehicles are designed to allow for an easy battery pack swap. In theory, if a supercharger location were equipped for it (none of them are right now), someone who's in a big hurry could pay to swap out the battery for another already-charged one rather than waiting to charge. I have no idea how practical that would be in reality, of course. I don't remember where I saw an article about this, although I assume it was either Car and Driver or Road & Track; either way, it wasn't a long article with much detail.

I know some people who wouldn't like that idea because presumably they'd charge up the removed battery and then swap it onto someone else's vehicle, so you wouldn't know if you're getting an older battery whose charging capacity may be reduced or the like. (I won't do "tank exchange" for the propane tanks for my grill. I take them to a place that refills the tank you bring.)


Edited to add: I did a Google search for "Tesla battery fast swap" and this was the first result:
https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-swap-pilot-program

Later entries in the search list suggest Tesla abandoned this pilot program after a year or two.

[kalvado]

One thing that would make EVs far more practical for everyone would be if the batteries got smaller and lighter. If they were the size of an ICE car battery, even apartment dwellers could take them inside and charge them. If you were going on a long trip, you could just charge up six of them and swap them out as needed. Downtime wouldn't be much more than it is at a gas station, and you could do it anywhere, even on the shoulder of the road if you wanted, giving you even more freedom since you could swap out batteries even in desolate areas with no gas station.

Setting up charging stations is a cost a lot of apartment complexes would have to embrace at some point. Probably with pay per kwt and a fee, for an overall profit. Not that different from laundry facilities many places have.
How would that affect grid connection is another story.

Not enough room in the parking areas a lot of them have.

You really don't need a lot of room to add charging to existing spots. Thing can be the size of a mailbox on a wall or a parking meter

Next time you're driving around a city, pay closer attention to the horrible parking available for a lot of the buildings. There's not even room for something the size of parking meters (and the infrastructure needed to connect such to the grid).

Infrastructure is a whole different story. But probably not too bad while EVs are 10% of the fleet or so.
And thinking about more outlying complexes, like one we lived at in Guilderland, those could reasonably get chargers if they chose to.
Albany proper would likely have less room and overloaded underground cables and fires from those extra loads. Not that they never have those fires as is, though.

[kalvado]

There are clearly a lot of people on this thread who follow the issues related to EVs much more closely than I do.  We've talked about a lot of the limitations of the strictly plug-in vehicles.  If I was going to bet on a technology 10 or 15 years ago, I think it would have been hydrogen fuel cells.  Is there a limitation there that's been unexpectedly difficult to overcome?  I seem to recall the idea that one would simply swap out an empty hydrogen fuel cell for a full one and be on his or her way.  And that you could carry multiple cells for longer times/distances between chances to get full ones.  Is the main advantage of the plug-ins that we already have a widespread electrical grid to build on compared to some hydrogen infrastructure that would be harder to build out?  Or the plug-in vehicles are cheaper or easier to produce?

Tesla claims that their vehicles are designed to allow for an easy battery pack swap. In theory, if a supercharger location were equipped for it (none of them are right now), someone who's in a big hurry could pay to swap out the battery for another already-charged one rather than waiting to charge. I have no idea how practical that would be in reality, of course. I don't remember where I saw an article about this, although I assume it was either Car and Driver or Road & Track; either way, it wasn't a long article with much detail.

I know some people who wouldn't like that idea because presumably they'd charge up the removed battery and then swap it onto someone else's vehicle, so you wouldn't know if you're getting an older battery whose charging capacity may be reduced or the like. (I won't do "tank exchange" for the propane tanks for my grill. I take them to a place that refills the tank you bring.)


Edited to add: I did a Google search for "Tesla battery fast swap" and this was the first result:
https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-swap-pilot-program

Later entries in the search list suggest Tesla abandoned this pilot program after a year or two.

I believe their later models do not even include provisions for quick swap. Best option I can think of would be rental booster battery, but even that would be a can of worms

[Jim]

My (obviously outdated) understanding was that it wouldn't be a battery swap but more along the lines of a small cell that contains the hydrogen.  The potential benefits I recall reading about way back included more efficiency since you don't have to transmit the electricity on the grid (co-locate hydrogen cell replenishment with electricity generation), not needing to overtax the grid with a new large demand, refueling faster than a current gas station since you'd just drop in/plug in a full cell.

Or maybe I'm just thinking of Doc Brown's plutonium pellets for his flux capacitor.  Until the Mr. Fusion comes along, of course.

[kalvado]

My (obviously outdated) understanding was that it wouldn't be a battery swap but more along the lines of a small cell that contains the hydrogen.  The potential benefits I recall reading about way back included more efficiency since you don't have to transmit the electricity on the grid (co-locate hydrogen cell replenishment with electricity generation), not needing to overtax the grid with a new large demand, refueling faster than a current gas station since you'd just drop in/plug in a full cell.

Or maybe I'm just thinking of Doc Brown's plutonium pellets for his flux capacitor.  Until the Mr. Fusion comes along, of course.

Hydrogen, despite a big push during Bush II, didn't really become popular in the US. Hydrogen cars gained some popularity elsewhere though - e.g. Korea.
Add-on hydrogen module seems like a big can of worms from the safety point of view, IMHO. Although adding basic provisions like internal power connection may be a reasonable way of future-proofing

edited for grammar