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Author Topic: Status of US 395 Business in Reno  (Read 1094 times)

oscar

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Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« on: August 26, 2022, 06:15:14 PM »

Note: This thread was split from the general Nevada thread on 8/28/2022. Figured the dedicated thread would be better for more detailed discussion and/or future research.  —Roadfro


Some users on the Travel Mapping forum have noted that the US 395 Business route in Reno is poorly signed (except at its north end, where the business route meets the US 395 mainline and is concurrent with NV 430). They wondered if the route has been decommissioned (or TM should treat it as decommissioned) and remove it from the TM database. One of them said also that the business route was hard or impossible to follow through downtown Reno, at least northbound, due to recent "road diet" changes to Virginia St. I am TM's highway data manager for Nevada, and would welcome any input on this issue.

AIUI, the Reno business route was approved by AASHTO in 1972, though that doesn't necessarily mean AASHTO would have to approve its decommissioning. It was originally state-maintained, but NDOT transferred it and concurrent NV 430 to local maintenance over the years except the northernmost segment.

As in California, most business routes aren't state-maintained, but NDOT usually mentions them on signs from major intersecting routes it does maintain. For example, US 395 Business through Carson City (created from mileage removed from US 395 as it was relocated onto I-580) is signed from I-580 at both ends. NDOT also shows some of them on its latest (2019-2020) official state highway map, including the Reno business route (at least the locally-maintained part north of I-80), as well as the locally-maintained Business US 95 in Las Vegas.

But the Reno business route isn't signed at its south end or from I-80, or probably anyplace else south of Virginia St.'s northern intersection with McCarran Blvd (NV 659, which itself is a major route with only one route marker). The AARoads pages on the route indicate that's been true for a long time. That includes when TM's predecessor Clinched Highway Mapping project (whose webmaster was especially strict about omitting unsigned routes) included the Reno business route in its mapping.

Any thoughts? In particular, any local newspaper coverage or other information indicating that the Reno city government has decided to decommission the city-maintained portions of US 395 Business, rather than just allowing them to become unsigned through neglect?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 09:40:09 PM by roadfro »
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pderocco

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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2022, 10:05:48 PM »

Some users on the Travel Mapping forum have noted that the US 395 Business route in Reno is poorly signed (except at its north end, where the business route meets the US 395 mainline and is concurrent with NV 430). They wondered if the route has been decommissioned (or TM should treat it as decommissioned) and remove it from the TM database. One of them said also that the business route was hard or impossible to follow through downtown Reno, at least northbound, due to recent changes to Virginia St.

I don't see how it's hard to follow, given that it's just about a straight line.

If someone is trying to get somewhere, using directions that include BR-395 as one of the road names, then lack of signs would be a problem, to be solved by specifying Virginia St instead. But if they're trying to follow an historic route, they don't need signs, they need a map and some common sense. The old US-395 alignment is pretty obvious from US-50 to the California border.
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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2022, 01:32:12 AM »

One of them said also that the business route was hard or impossible to follow through downtown Reno, at least northbound, due to recent changes to Virginia St.

I don't see how it's hard to follow, given that it's just about a straight line.

AIUI, starting sometime this summer, northbound traffic must now turn off Virginia St., and use another street to continue NB for several blocks before it can return to NB Virginia St. At least at first, the reroute was confusing and poorly signed, not friendly to travelers trying to cross through downtown (which might've been part of a "road diet" plan).
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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2022, 06:24:23 PM »

One of them said also that the business route was hard or impossible to follow through downtown Reno, at least northbound, due to recent changes to Virginia St.

I don't see how it's hard to follow, given that it's just about a straight line.

AIUI, starting sometime this summer, northbound traffic must now turn off Virginia St., and use another street to continue NB for several blocks before it can return to NB Virginia St. At least at first, the reroute was confusing and poorly signed, not friendly to travelers trying to cross through downtown (which might've been part of a "road diet" plan).

The Union Pacific mainline was reworked through that area.  UP's main track and the  Amtrak station (trains 5/6, the California Zephyr)  were placed in a trench to bypass a congested section of downtown Reno streets.

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roadfro

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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2022, 09:31:30 PM »

Some users on the Travel Mapping forum have noted that the US 395 Business route in Reno is poorly signed (except at its north end, where the business route meets the US 395 mainline and is concurrent with NV 430). They wondered if the route has been decommissioned (or TM should treat it as decommissioned) and remove it from the TM database. One of them said also that the business route was hard or impossible to follow through downtown Reno, at least northbound, due to recent "road diet" changes to Virginia St. I am TM's highway data manager for Nevada, and would welcome any input on this issue.

AIUI, the Reno business route was approved by AASHTO in 1972, though that doesn't necessarily mean AASHTO would have to approve its decommissioning. It was originally state-maintained, but NDOT transferred it and concurrent NV 430 to local maintenance over the years except the northernmost segment.

This is kind of a hard question to answer. I don't think Reno's US 395 BUS has ever officially been decommissioned, but the emphasis on signing it has obviously waned since the route was originally commissioned. But as things stand now, I wouldn't jump to remove the route from the TM database.

It's true that the recent changes to Virginia St in downtown Reno make the route impossible to follow in the northbound direction from roughly 1st St to 5th St. The City of Reno's Micromobility Pilot Project took out the northbound lane to make way for two-way bikes/scooter travel, including a portion of two-way cycle track. (Reno also put in protected bike lanes along 5th St simultaneously as part of this pilot, and entered into a franchise agreement with Bird e-scooters around the same time as this pilot kicked off.) However, the modifications to Virginia Street are a temporary part of the pilot project, and are scheduled to be removed in November 2022, at which point they'll do further study and see what kinds of infrastructure to move forward with more permanently, if any.

Quote
As in California, most business routes aren't state-maintained, but NDOT usually mentions them on signs from major intersecting routes it does maintain. For example, US 395 Business through Carson City (created from mileage removed from US 395 as it was relocated onto I-580) is signed from I-580 at both ends. NDOT also shows some of them on its latest (2019-2020) official state highway map, including the Reno business route (at least the locally-maintained part north of I-80), as well as the locally-maintained Business US 95 in Las Vegas.

But the Reno business route isn't signed at its south end or from I-80, or probably anyplace else south of Virginia St.'s northern intersection with McCarran Blvd (NV 659, which itself is a major route with only one route marker). The AARoads pages on the route indicate that's been true for a long time. That includes when TM's predecessor Clinched Highway Mapping project (whose webmaster was especially strict about omitting unsigned routes) included the Reno business route in its mapping.

NDOT generally does a decent job signing business routes from freeways. However, signage once you get off the freeway is not always great in the bigger cities. Part of this may be because the business routes are not always state-maintained. A good example of this Reno's I-80 Business Loop. There are supplemental signs for the business route on either end (approaching Keystone Ave eastbound and McCarran Blvd east westbound), but no signage indicating where the business route goes once you're off the freeway...Keystone Ave, 4th St/Prater Way, and Victorian Ave are all almost exclusively controlled by their cities, and there is very little signage of I-80 Business along the way (including indication of where the route turns).

You are correct that US 395 Business is not signed from the US 395 freeway itself on the south end, nor is it signed from I-80. (US 395 Business used to be signed on the Virginia St signs, but that was prior to my coming to Reno in 2001.) On the I-80 off ramps to Virginia St, they replaced signs pointing toward US 395 Bus when I-80 was reconstructed circa 2009-2010 (e.g. Street View of US 395 Bus sign on I-80 west off ramp), but there's no additional signs directing to the actual business route.

I will also note that there is an end sign at the south end of the business route, on Virginia St just before reaching the final I-580/US 395 interchange. Street View from June 2022 shows how the signage was incorrectly altered to reflect this section of Virginia St being changed from SR 430 to US 395 Alt several years ago, but the next most recent Street View from 2019 shows how the End US 395 Business signage looked previously—the signage today would be correct if it were signed as "South Alt US 395" and "End South Business US 395". Note that this section of the route is still under NDOT maintenance.

Side note: US 95 Business along Rancho Drive in Las Vegas is not locally maintained—it is still state-maintained as SR 599. You won't find any US 95 Business shields on that route, but there are some scattered SR 599 shields.

Quote
Any thoughts? In particular, any local newspaper coverage or other information indicating that the Reno city government has decided to decommission the city-maintained portions of US 395 Business, rather than just allowing them to become unsigned through neglect?

Nothing newsworthy to provide in this regard... Use of highway numbers (aside from freeways) is not really ingrained in the cultural lexicon here, so there's likely not a high priority for the city government to ensure signage is up and consistent. If there is or had been a concerted effort to decommission a business route like this, I'd be the first to mention it here and add it to an appropriate article on Wikipedia. So with all that said, I'd reiterate recommending against removing US 395 Business from the TM website at this time.
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cl94

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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2022, 10:09:03 PM »

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the business route is never the primary designation in Nevada. If it's state maintained, there's an underlying SR and if it's local, good luck on if it's signed or not. 395B in Carson is signed pretty well as is 80 BL in West Wendover and both are locally-maintained, but signs along the Reno/Sparks 80 BL are few and far between.

It should be noted that a prominent western roadgeek who insists on clinching everything, considers Reno 395B to be null and void at this point in time. We're down to signs in two locations, one of which is an erroneous END ALTERNATE BUSINESS US 395 assembly. NDOT doesn't have a history of stripping routes when things are decommissioned and there are nonzero SR 430 shields remaining along/near the decommissioned section south of downtown; this doesn't mean that SR 430 still continues to the south side of Reno. I'm not convinced 395B Reno exists, but if there's evidence to the contrary, I will believe it. It might simply be a case of NDOT letting it fade away as signs are replaced.

Going back to that END assembly, that's a fun case of US 395A and 395B being concurrent. NDOT considers all of old 395 between the Carson/Washoe line and Patriot Drive in Reno to be 395A, but the BR was never officially truncated/removed when the freeway was completed and 395A became a thing to take over the state-maintained old alignments of 395.

That being said, I miiiiight be able to get an official answer from the Reno MPO or NDOT on this in the near future. It might be something to the effect of "who cares if it's still there?" given that nobody uses it and signs for it are slowly disappearing through attrition. If the road has another name, that's what's used in Reno/Tahoe and NDOT often won't bother to clearly sign SRs from freeways. SRs 341, 421, and 445 are consistently signed; little else is.
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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2022, 12:29:37 PM »

Where's that END US 395AB sign at?
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cl94

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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2022, 05:36:46 PM »

Where's that END US 395AB sign at?

580 Exit 25B, complete with a now-erroneous SR 430 shield.
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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2022, 01:30:27 PM »

Very interesting. I'll have to nab that when I'm there next (might be awhile, sigh  :-/ ).
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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2022, 02:25:46 PM »

Bumping this topic -- Back when I lived in Reno in 2006 through 2013, and when I had visited starting a few years prior, there were still "US 395" postmile markers at 395B's major intersections -- Moana, Plumb, both McCarrans, Neil, etc. There might have even been some standalone postmiles north of McCarran. Are any of those still present?

Also, another source of data that may shed some light, or at least provide historical context, are the NDOT route logs, or Nevada's State Maintained Highways: Descriptions, Index and Maps. I just stumbled upon my copies of the 2000, 2001, 2003, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017, 2020, 2021 and 2022 editions. Here's what they say about the alignment of what is considered 395B in Reno:

  • The 2000, 2001 and 2003 editions refer to the Business Route by its state route designation, SR 430. At this time, it ran from the Jct. US-395 near Winters Ranch (Exit 16 today) to the intersection of Virginia St. and Plumb Ln., as well as from the I-80 interchange at Virginia up to the Jct. US-395 (what NDOT calls the "N/S Freeway" in the doc) at Exit 72, for a grand total of 21.648 miles. The section in between Plumb and I-80 is marked as not state-maintained, but is shown on the map for continuity purposes.
  • The 2006 edition shows a couple changes. For one, the south urban limit of Reno was apparently moved southward by about 5 miles, so the non-urbanized segment of SR 430 was shortened. The doc also states that it now ends at I-580, but doesn't specify which I-580 interchange it is. According to the map, it ends at the 580 overpass just north of S McCarran (which is incorrectly placed) at then-Exit 63, now-Exit 31. However, based on the mileage calculations, I believe the alignment actually ended (edit: according to the log, not my own beliefs -- see below) at the southernmost interchange, then-Exits 57AB, now-Exits 25AB. The northernmost segment is the same, but NDOT expanded the description of the northern terminus as "Ramps 3 & 4 of N/S Frwy US395, N Virginia St, Exit #72, N of Reno". In total, the route is stated to be 14.394 miles.
  • The 2008 edition uses the same map as the 2006 edition, but updates the log listing. Unfortunately, the map and log are still out of sync. Now, it says SR 430 runs between Winters Ranch and Patriot Blvd. (just north of then-Exit 61, now-Exit 29). In addition, the log indicates that the segment between I-80 and N McCarran near the University of Nevada has been dropped, as the mileage is only shown for SR 430 north of there. This takes the total mileage back up to 15.69 miles. Finally, the verbose description of the northern terminus is scaled back to just mentioning "US395" with no information on ramps, street names, exit numbers or cities.
  • The 2010 edition unveils a complete overhaul of the mapping technology used by NDOT. The Washoe County maps now show mileposts and exit numbers along most, if not all, state routes. It also corrects the mileage calculations of various routes, SR 430 among them. The N McCarran to 395 segment is now listed as being 3.161 miles long, up from 2.483 miles in the 2008 edition, bringing the total distance to 16.369 miles (no other changes were made). The map now corresponds to what the log describes. (Side note: This is also the first edition where the entire McCarran loop is SR 659.)
  • The 2011 edition features no changes from the 2010 edition.
  • The 2012 edition shows a few changes. The southern segment of SR 430, along with all of SR 429, were rolled into US-395 Alt at this time. The log now has a separate entry for "US395A", which runs from the Eastlake Blvd. interchange (then-Exit 44, now-Exit 10) to Patriot Blvd. for a distance of 20.082 miles. The only remaining segment of SR 430 is the N McCarran to 395 segment, running 3.161 miles. Curiously, there are no maps in this edition.
  • The 2013 edition features no changes from the 2012 edition, except the maps are back but without milepost indicators. SR 430 and US-395 Alt are marked as such.
  • The 2015 and 2017 editions feature no changes from the 2013 edition.
  • The 2020 edition only features a couple small changes -- SR 430 is now listed as being 3.158 miles instead of 3.161, and US-395 Alt is now 20.081 miles instead of 20.082.
  • The 2021 and 2022 editions feature no changes from the 2020 edition.

There appeared to be no mention or separate classification of business routes anywhere in the document, not just for US-395, so nothing in them really reveals whether or not US-395 Business is still active. I always thought that NDOT simply referred to these routes internally by their state route number and only posted the "business route" shields for the benefit of motorists and businesses. Perhaps actually asking someone who works at NDOT, as had been mentioned previously in this thread, will give a more definitive answer.

Edit: I had a further thought on the 2006 edition adjustment of SR 430 to I-580. Basically there are 4 (really 3, but included for completeness) possibilities on what that terminus could be:

  • The partial interchange at Exits 57AB (now-Exits 25AB) -- Corresponds to the 2006 NDOT log mileage calculation
  • The Kietzke Ln. interchange at Exit 63 (now-Exit 31) -- Corresponds to the 2006 NDOT Reno map
  • The Patriot Blvd. interchange at Exit 61 (now-Exit 29) -- Corresponds to route's terminus in 2008
  • The Mt. Rose Highway interchange at Exit 56 (now-Exit 24) -- Almost zero likelihood due to route already being SR 431 and no indication SR 430 was ever signed along that stretch

Given NDOT's penchant for inaccurate documentation and lack of attention to outdated signage at the time, it could just as easily be any of those first 3. Thinking on it now, it's doubtful that NDOT rolled back 430 all the way to Exits 57AB only to re-apply it back up to Patriot, though stranger things have happened. However, it seems equally likely that by 2006 the relinquishment was either done all the way to Patriot or to the Kietzke interchange first, then Patriot. I suppose that if I had access to NTA minutes from between 2003 and 2008 I may be able to suss that information out. (This assumes that the NTA has the authority to assign numbers and complete jurisdictional transfers; I'm mostly familiar with Oregon's system, whose transportation commission does have that authority.)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 08:21:33 PM by JasonOfORoads »
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roadfro

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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2022, 12:21:55 PM »

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the business route is never the primary designation in Nevada. If it's state maintained, there's an underlying SR and if it's local, good luck on if it's signed or not. 395B in Carson is signed pretty well as is 80 BL in West Wendover and both are locally-maintained, but signs along the Reno/Sparks 80 BL are few and far between.

Just reread this and wanted to comment on one exception: The recently-created US 93 Business in Boulder City is fully state-maintained, and does not have an underlying state route number. It is in the NDOT SMH book as "US 93B".
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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2022, 02:58:28 PM »

Seems a curious exception to make.
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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2022, 08:35:56 PM »

Seems a curious exception to make.

Probably just a change in NTA policy or an update to computer systems allowing the change.
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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2022, 08:59:04 PM »

Bumping this topic -- Back when I lived in Reno in 2006 through 2013, and when I had visited starting a few years prior, there were still "US 395" postmile markers at 395B's major intersections -- Moana, Plumb, both McCarrans, Neil, etc. There might have even been some standalone postmiles north of McCarran. Are any of those still present?

This is fun. As of this week, SB at Meadowood has a US 395 postmile. NB at McCarran has a postmile with the route number whited out. Possible there are others I haven't caught yet.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the business route is never the primary designation in Nevada. If it's state maintained, there's an underlying SR and if it's local, good luck on if it's signed or not. 395B in Carson is signed pretty well as is 80 BL in West Wendover and both are locally-maintained, but signs along the Reno/Sparks 80 BL are few and far between.

Just reread this and wanted to comment on one exception: The recently-created US 93 Business in Boulder City is fully state-maintained, and does not have an underlying state route number. It is in the NDOT SMH book as "US 93B".

I mean, I'd call "93B" a state route number, it just happens to match the business route. See also: how the alternates are officially "US XXA", but (usually) signed as "ALT US XX". It is interesting, though, given that every other BR has a concurrent different-numbered state route or frontage road for the state-maintained portions.
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roadfro

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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2022, 08:43:47 PM »

Bumping this topic -- Back when I lived in Reno in 2006 through 2013, and when I had visited starting a few years prior, there were still "US 395" postmile markers at 395B's major intersections -- Moana, Plumb, both McCarrans, Neil, etc. There might have even been some standalone postmiles north of McCarran. Are any of those still present?

This is fun. As of this week, SB at Meadowood has a US 395 postmile. NB at McCarran has a postmile with the route number whited out. Possible there are others I haven't caught yet.

Yeah, there's a few old US 395 mile markers out along Virginia Street in Reno, nearly all old sticker style mileposts affixed to traffic signals mast poles at major intersections. All pretty much are leftovers from the old days of US 395 being on Virginia Street. Not sure when the "US 395" route info was covered up on most of them, but I think it was in the early 2010s—and a while after the adjacent section of the route was removed from state maintenance. These sticker mileposts are disappearing though, any time traffic signal masts are replaced.

I'd have to take a look, but I don't think there are currently any standalone mileposts along the SR 430 section north of North McCarran. I can only ever remember seeing the sticker style on Virginia Street since I've been living here.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the business route is never the primary designation in Nevada. If it's state maintained, there's an underlying SR and if it's local, good luck on if it's signed or not. 395B in Carson is signed pretty well as is 80 BL in West Wendover and both are locally-maintained, but signs along the Reno/Sparks 80 BL are few and far between.

Just reread this and wanted to comment on one exception: The recently-created US 93 Business in Boulder City is fully state-maintained, and does not have an underlying state route number. It is in the NDOT SMH book as "US 93B".

I mean, I'd call "93B" a state route number, it just happens to match the business route. See also: how the alternates are officially "US XXA", but (usually) signed as "ALT US XX". It is interesting, though, given that every other BR has a concurrent different-numbered state route or frontage road for the state-maintained portions.

Boulder City's US 93 Business being cataloged as "US 93B" isn't the same kind of situation as, say US 95 Business in Las Vegas, which also carries the SR 599 designation and is cataloged as such. By contrast, every US Alternate route in Nevada is classified as a US highway and cataloged in the SMH book as "US xxA".

NDOT could have assigned US 93 Business a 3-digit state route number when they moved the US 93 mainline—several numbers in the low 500's would have fit in the 1976 numbering scheme (and part of that route may have carried SR 500 and/or SR 501 for a time). But NDOT consciously chose not to and just used the US route designation as the number for whatever reason. There's a few things like this where NDOT is not always consistent...
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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2022, 01:11:56 PM »

I went out to Virginia City yesterday to observe the Outhouse Races, and upon my return to Reno stumbled upon another interesting wrinkle with the US 395 Business situation.

There is currently a northbound US 395 Business shield near the south end—it's at an unexpected location: Virginia St between the SR 341/SR 431 junction and the southernmost I-580 interchange (Street View from June 2022). And, interestingly, it's been there since at least September 2011 (street view, paired with the then-accurate SR 430 shield instead), but wasn't there in May 2009.

This is interesting, because it is on the opposite side of the freeway from where the previously-discussed semi-erroneous "end" sign is. One would expect the business route would end at the interchange, but also there is no way for the northbound freeway traffic to join the northbound business route at said interchange...



EDIT:

Took a look at the AASHTO Numbering database. In 2001, NDOT applied for an extension of US 395 Business south from Virginia Street's intersection with Del Monte Lane (Neil Road) to the US 395 & SR 431 interchange, which was approved at AASHTO's spring meeting.

The 2001 application appears to be the most recent consideration of Reno's US 395 Business route by AASHTO—everything else related to US 395 in the database since then is related to construction of the Carson City Freeway or the I-580 extension from Mt Rose Hwy to Washoe Valley. So as far as AASHTO is concerned, US 395 Business in Reno still exists.

And US 395 Business actually officially overlaps SR 431 between I-580/US 395 and US 395 Alt. Which means the northbound sign I saw yesterday is fine, and the southbound "end" sign is incorrectly placed.

(As an aside, it's interesting that application requested to extend US 395 Business from Del Monte Lane. The previous southern end, as approved through AASHTO action in 1982, was ~0.8 miles north of there at the half interchange with I-580/US 395 [now exit 31]. Piecing together the applications, you could almost assume there's technically a gap in the business route—but more likely, it was either a big oversight or an intervening extension application is not archived in the database.)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 02:04:17 PM by roadfro »
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Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadfro

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Re: Status of US 395 Business in Reno
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2022, 10:14:13 AM »

Two-way vehicular travel on Virginia Street in downtown Reno should be restored by October 21st.

Virginia Street will be closed in both directions through Oct. 21 Reno Gazette Journal, 10/11/2022
Quote
Virginia Street from First through Fifth streets will be closed through Friday, Oct. 21 as city staff remove temporary micromobility barriers and re-stripe the road for two-way traffic.
<...>
The city of Reno and Regional Transportation Commission will now analyze the [Micromobility Pilot Project] program's results, including over 1,000 survey responses from the public, with the goal of providing a final report in spring of 2023.
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Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

 


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