NY 17/"I-86"

[sparker]

It's complete and I-86 shields are used throughout. I've noticed that within the last year, many of the NY 17 shields are either being removed, not replaced during sign replacement projects or are regulated to secondary status.

Question:  are I-86 shields posted on all portions of NY 17 west of I-81/Binghamton, or are there still some substandard sections remaining (near Vestal or Owego?) that are preventing that from happening?

[SGwithADD]

The substandard sections in Vestal remain unchanged.  The last time I was through the area (January 2020), the Broome County stretch between Prospect Mountain and NY 26 (Exit 67) had TO I-86 markers on signposts, with the TO banner looking very permanent (on the same metal posts as the rest of the sign).  Here's an example on GSV.  West of NY 26, the signs simply say I-86/NY 17 (no TO banner).

At that same time, in Tioga County, some, but not all, I-86 shields were still covered.  Not sure if this is still the case.

While none of it seems to have been submitted for approval, it seems that NYSDOT will pursue the I-86 designation through Exit 67 and then leave a gap.  The section from Prospect Mountain east can be signed as I-86, since it will be co-signed with I-81 up to the junction with the Windsor segment of I-86 that's been designated since the early 2000s.

[NJRoadfan]

Future I-86 shields were posted on NY-17 in Orange County way back in 2001. Don't know if they survived after all the construction over the years.

[dgolub]

Future I-86 shields were posted on NY-17 in Orange County way back in 2001. Don't know if they survived after all the construction over the years.

There's at least one right at the beginning.


I'm not sure how many others there are at this point.  They're certainly not pervasive.

[cl94]

There are a handful left between Waverly and Harriman. Not a ton, but they can be found.

[jp the roadgeek]

There are a handful left between Waverly and Harriman. Not a ton, but they can be found.

There's one just west of the onramp from I-84 West next to Crystal Run Galleria in Middletown

[sparker]

There are a handful left between Waverly and Harriman. Not a ton, but they can be found.

There's one just west of the onramp from I-84 West next to Crystal Run Galleria in Middletown

Wow!  An unmitigated I-86 shield in Middletown -- considering the status of anything east of Hale Eddy, that's certainly an oddity.  But I'd expect NYDOT to initially concentrate, now that the Binghamton revamp project is done, on getting the full length west of I-81 up to snuff before even considering "piecemealing" the territory east of there.  Courtesy of traffic feeding from both I-81 from the south and I-88 from the northeast, that's the most commercially viable portion of the whole I-86 statewide corridor.  While it would be nice to get the entire corridor completed, the eastern "half" through the Catskills doesn't have the atmosphere of urgency endemic to the western section, as one can easily get from NYC metro to Binghamton via Delaware Water Gap and Scranton.  But I-81 to I-87 will eventually be built out and completed -- just at a decidedly leisurely pace.  The sporadic I-86 shields seen on that segment will remain so for the time being.     

[webny99]

There are a handful left between Waverly and Harriman. Not a ton, but they can be found.

There's one just west of the onramp from I-84 West next to Crystal Run Galleria in Middletown

Wow!  An unmitigated I-86 shield in Middletown ...

Could be wrong but I thought cl94 was referring to the "Future I-86" signs...

[vdeane]

There are a handful left between Waverly and Harriman. Not a ton, but they can be found.

There's one just west of the onramp from I-84 West next to Crystal Run Galleria in Middletown

Wow!  An unmitigated I-86 shield in Middletown -- considering the status of anything east of Hale Eddy, that's certainly an oddity.  But I'd expect NYDOT to initially concentrate, now that the Binghamton revamp project is done, on getting the full length west of I-81 up to snuff before even considering "piecemealing" the territory east of there.  Courtesy of traffic feeding from both I-81 from the south and I-88 from the northeast, that's the most commercially viable portion of the whole I-86 statewide corridor.  While it would be nice to get the entire corridor completed, the eastern "half" through the Catskills doesn't have the atmosphere of urgency endemic to the western section, as one can easily get from NYC metro to Binghamton via Delaware Water Gap and Scranton.  But I-81 to I-87 will eventually be built out and completed -- just at a decidedly leisurely pace.  The sporadic I-86 shields seen on that segment will remain so for the time being.     

There are actually a lot of I-86 signs in the area.  They're supposed to be covered, but a lot of the covers have fallen off (or, in the case of I-84 guide signs, were never put on).  Given this, it looks like it was intended to become another short disconnected segment, but for some reason it never got pushed through the bureaucracy to happen.

Right now as far as I'm aware, there is no push in NYSDOT to further I-86, so I don't see any effort to do that in the foreseeable future, unless it gets slipped in to some stimulus bill or something.  I guess we'll also see if the 17 forward 86 coalition gets any traction; they're more focused on widening the eastern section, but I could see some projects getting dovetailed with such efforts, if they ever move past the study phase.

(personal opinion)

[abqtraveler]

There are a handful left between Waverly and Harriman. Not a ton, but they can be found.

There's one just west of the onramp from I-84 West next to Crystal Run Galleria in Middletown

Wow!  An unmitigated I-86 shield in Middletown -- considering the status of anything east of Hale Eddy, that's certainly an oddity.  But I'd expect NYDOT to initially concentrate, now that the Binghamton revamp project is done, on getting the full length west of I-81 up to snuff before even considering "piecemealing" the territory east of there.  Courtesy of traffic feeding from both I-81 from the south and I-88 from the northeast, that's the most commercially viable portion of the whole I-86 statewide corridor.  While it would be nice to get the entire corridor completed, the eastern "half" through the Catskills doesn't have the atmosphere of urgency endemic to the western section, as one can easily get from NYC metro to Binghamton via Delaware Water Gap and Scranton.  But I-81 to I-87 will eventually be built out and completed -- just at a decidedly leisurely pace.  The sporadic I-86 shields seen on that segment will remain so for the time being.     

There are actually a lot of I-86 signs in the area.  They're supposed to be covered, but a lot of the covers have fallen off (or, in the case of I-84 guide signs, were never put on).  Given this, it looks like it was intended to become another short disconnected segment, but for some reason it never got pushed through the bureaucracy to happen.

Right now as far as I'm aware, there is no push in NYSDOT to further I-86, so I don't see any effort to do that in the foreseeable future, unless it gets slipped in to some stimulus bill or something.  I guess we'll also see if the 17 forward 86 coalition gets any traction; they're more focused on widening the eastern section, but I could see some projects getting dovetailed with such efforts, if they ever move past the study phase.

(personal opinion)

Taking a look at the history of the NY-17/I-86 conversion will shed some light on why it just stalled out midstream. The concept of converting NY-17 to I-86 began during the administration of George Pataki, who was the last governor that wasn't from New York City, and as such embarked on state investments for the remainder of New York outside of New York City, including the I-86 project. Following Pataki, you had Elliott Spitzer, David Patterson, and now Andrew Cuomo, who are all from New York City. All three of these governors have redirected the state government's priorities to New York City and its immediate surroundings at the expense of the remainder of the state. Unfortunately, I-86 got caught up in this, and it'll take a new governor that's not from New York City or Long Island to get the I-86 conversion across the finish line. And then there's the NYS Thruway Authority, which has been fighting NYSDOT on converting NY-17 to I-86 as it would provide a toll-free alternative to the Thruway.

[storm2k]

There are a handful left between Waverly and Harriman. Not a ton, but they can be found.

There's one just west of the onramp from I-84 West next to Crystal Run Galleria in Middletown

Wow!  An unmitigated I-86 shield in Middletown -- considering the status of anything east of Hale Eddy, that's certainly an oddity.  But I'd expect NYDOT to initially concentrate, now that the Binghamton revamp project is done, on getting the full length west of I-81 up to snuff before even considering "piecemealing" the territory east of there.  Courtesy of traffic feeding from both I-81 from the south and I-88 from the northeast, that's the most commercially viable portion of the whole I-86 statewide corridor.  While it would be nice to get the entire corridor completed, the eastern "half" through the Catskills doesn't have the atmosphere of urgency endemic to the western section, as one can easily get from NYC metro to Binghamton via Delaware Water Gap and Scranton.  But I-81 to I-87 will eventually be built out and completed -- just at a decidedly leisurely pace.  The sporadic I-86 shields seen on that segment will remain so for the time being.     

There are actually a lot of I-86 signs in the area.  They're supposed to be covered, but a lot of the covers have fallen off (or, in the case of I-84 guide signs, were never put on).  Given this, it looks like it was intended to become another short disconnected segment, but for some reason it never got pushed through the bureaucracy to happen.

Right now as far as I'm aware, there is no push in NYSDOT to further I-86, so I don't see any effort to do that in the foreseeable future, unless it gets slipped in to some stimulus bill or something.  I guess we'll also see if the 17 forward 86 coalition gets any traction; they're more focused on widening the eastern section, but I could see some projects getting dovetailed with such efforts, if they ever move past the study phase.

(personal opinion)

Taking a look at the history of the NY-17/I-86 conversion will shed some light on why it just stalled out midstream. The concept of converting NY-17 to I-86 began during the administration of George Pataki, who was the last governor that wasn't from New York City, and as such embarked on state investments for the remainder of New York outside of New York City, including the I-86 project. Following Pataki, you had Elliott Spitzer, David Patterson, and now Andrew Cuomo, who are all from New York City. All three of these governors have redirected the state government's priorities to New York City and its immediate surroundings at the expense of the remainder of the state. Unfortunately, I-86 got caught up in this, and it'll take a new governor that's not from New York City or Long Island to get the I-86 conversion across the finish line. And then there's the NYS Thruway Authority, which has been fighting NYSDOT on converting NY-17 to I-86 as it would provide a toll-free alternative to the Thruway.

Or it could be that they've realized that there isn't enough benefit gained from the millions of dollars in projects that would be required to convert the remaining non-compliant sections to interstate standards just so they can hang that red, white, and blue shield, and that the existing roadway handles the traffic requirements without too much issue and without a ton of safety concerns. Combine that with scarcity of funds and a long backlog of projects that need to be attended to all over the state, and we can easily see why they've made this choice without turning it into a false NYC vs the rest of the state argument that doesn't hold a ton of water.

[sprjus4]

And then there's the NYS Thruway Authority, which has been fighting NYSDOT on converting NY-17 to I-86 as it would provide a toll-free alternative to the Thruway.

Considering NY-17 is already a full freeway, with a 3 mile gap of arterial in the middle, seems like a moot point. Upgrading it would only modernize the facility and bring it up to full interstate standards, but nothing performance wise would change. The speed limit would still be 65 mph, it would still be the same distance, etc. The blue-and-red shield may attract some motorists, but the vast majority would already know it's a freeway and a shorter, faster alternative to the Thruway.

Besides, parts of I-80, I-380, I-81, I-390, and existing parts of I-86 already provide interstate highway toll free alternatives that are also shorter and faster than Thruway. A GPS or Google Maps won't even recommend I-87 to I-90 as an option, but rather parts of the aforementioned routes.

The bottom line is, the Thruway is not the best route for traveling between end points. It's practically used as two independent highways, and the interstate designations given reflect this. The I-87 portion is for north-south traffic between New York City, Albany, then onto Canada and Montreal, and the I-90 portion is for east-west traffic between Ohio & points west, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, then onto Massachusetts and Boston. The Thruway isn't going to lose large numbers with the completion of I-86, and if anything, diverted traffic would mean a less congested facility, though of course financially would mean slightly less revenue.

[Henry]

A comparable situation exists with NY's neighbors to the south. When I-80 was completed across PA, motorists could use this as a toll-free alternative to the Turnpike. And while it went nowhere near the three largest cities (Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Philadelphia) like the Turnpike did, it was shorter and faster than its counterpart to the south, especially for OH-NJ/NY traffic. And I seriously doubt that the PTC was complaining about the lost revenue that came with taking the straight shot alternative back then.

[sprjus4]

A comparable situation exists with NY's neighbors to the south. When I-80 was completed across PA, motorists could use this as a toll-free alternative to the Turnpike. And while it went nowhere near the three largest cities (Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Philadelphia) like the Turnpike did, it was shorter and faster than its counterpart to the south, especially for OH-NJ/NY traffic. And I seriously doubt that the PTC was complaining about the lost revenue that came with taking the straight shot alternative back then.

Then I-68 got built across the Maryland panhandle.

[Ketchup99]

A comparable situation exists with NY's neighbors to the south. When I-80 was completed across PA, motorists could use this as a toll-free alternative to the Turnpike. And while it went nowhere near the three largest cities (Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Philadelphia) like the Turnpike did, it was shorter and faster than its counterpart to the south, especially for OH-NJ/NY traffic. And I seriously doubt that the PTC was complaining about the lost revenue that came with taking the straight shot alternative back then.

If I'm right about the history, the PTC was up in arms opposing the Keystone Shortway's construction.

[Rothman]

The lack of finishing I-86 is definitely not partisan.  Despite Moynihan and others subsequently pushing it, the collapse of funding about 15 years ago and lack of benefit (NYSDOT Commissioners became more and more skeptical of the effort, from my personal perspective), there is simply little significant political will to finish the job given the high cost of the remaining work (which I posted in here at one time -- one or two projects have been done, but there are still quite a few left -- more than you'd think due to FHWA's ever-stricter adherence to their policies and specs).

[storm2k]

The lack of finishing I-86 is definitely not partisan.  Despite Moynihan and others subsequently pushing it, the collapse of funding about 15 years ago and lack of benefit (NYSDOT Commissioners became more and more skeptical of the effort, from my personal perspective), there is simply little significant political will to finish the job given the high cost of the remaining work (which I posted in here at one time -- one or two projects have been done, but there are still quite a few left -- more than you'd think due to FHWA's ever-stricter adherence to their policies and specs).

Yeah, I've always figured that if NYSDOT could get some of the sections that don't strictly meet standards but are "close enough" grandfathered in, then they'd figure out how to do the Hale Eddy section and hang that 86 shield everywhere. But it really does seem like the money they'd need for the upgrades is better spent elsewhere in the state.

[machias]

Turn maintenance of the Hale Eddy section over to NYSDOT region 2. They'll slap some "TO (86)"  shields up on it, take down any exit numbers, and call it a day. Done.

[DJ Particle]

And then there's the NYS Thruway Authority, which has been fighting NYSDOT on converting NY-17 to I-86 as it would provide a toll-free alternative to the Thruway.

Considering NY-17 is already a full freeway, with a 3 mile gap of arterial in the middle, seems like a moot point. Upgrading it would only modernize the facility and bring it up to full interstate standards, but nothing performance wise would change. The speed limit would still be 65 mph, it would still be the same distance, etc. The blue-and-red shield may attract some motorists, but the vast majority would already know it's a freeway and a shorter, faster alternative to the Thruway.

This.  The "we can't have a free alternative" ship sailed decades ago.  Even before the I-86 designation, the NY-17 freeway/expressway was mostly around for decades.

Even in the 1990s, with the Parksville, Corning, and Horseheads improvements still yet to be made, and the 20+ mile Super 2 in the west...  NY/PA-17 was already the "shunpike" preferred route across the state.

It's at the point where I'm already calling the entire thing "I-86", because why resist fate?

[sprjus4]

It's at the point where I'm already calling the entire thing "I-86", because why resist fate?

Might as well be... Many segments could be reasonable posted as I-86 if they meet basic interstate standards (10 foot paved right shoulder, 4 foot paved left shoulder, 12 foot lanes, 65 mph, etc.).

[Rothman]

Talk to FHWA in Albany.  They're the ones that require the segments to connect to another Interstate.

[artmalk]

If I'm right about the history, the PTC was up in arms opposing the Keystone Shortway's construction.
[/quote]

I'm sure the PTC didn't like PADOT's snarky name, the Keystone Shortway!  I'm sure the PTC was thinking, "OK, we know it's shorter but do you have to tell everybody that?"

[empirestate]

This.  The "we can't have a free alternative" ship sailed decades ago.  Even before the I-86 designation, the NY-17 freeway/expressway was mostly around for decades.

Even in the 1990s, with the Parksville, Corning, and Horseheads improvements still yet to be made, and the 20+ mile Super 2 in the west...  NY/PA-17 was already the "shunpike" preferred route across the state.

It's at the point where I'm already calling the entire thing "I-86", because why resist fate?

Indeed; the competition between the routes followed by the Thruway and by NY 17 made sense in the railroad days, but don't really apply with modern motor travel and highway engineering. The challenges posed by the geography of the southern tier route have been met by technological advancement.

That being said, the Thruway isn't always as much worse a route as it seems; between the Hudson Valley and Syracuse it only costs you 2-3 minutes over the NY 17/I-81 route, according to the machine in my pocket.

[sprjus4]

Talk to FHWA in Albany.  They're the ones that require the segments to connect to another Interstate.

I'm referring to segments that do connect to other interstates.

[sparker]

Talk to FHWA in Albany.  They're the ones that require the segments to connect to another Interstate.

I'm referring to segments that do connect to other interstates.

At this point, doing the spot fixes west of Binghamton to get that section fully up to spec would reasonably be the first priority; the remainder, except for Hale Eddy -- which may take some time and likely a handful of waiver requests -- can be done as funding allows.   And since everything "out west" does connect quite readily to other Interstates (81, 90, 390) that particular issue is moot.