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Author Topic: Illinois notes  (Read 242356 times)

I-39

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1900 on: January 09, 2021, 11:09:16 PM »

Nothing like that leg of 39 . Done between 87 and 90. Also it got the 2 di North before the final freeway design south of Ogelsby decided.

If only they wouldíve waited until design standards changed and did the Bloomington to Decatur segment like that as well.......

I personally think the old design standards for controlled access freeways is what ultimately killed any chance of making US 51 an interstate south of Bloomington.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1901 on: January 09, 2021, 11:51:02 PM »

I had to drive to Bloomington yesterday, and to mix things up a bit I took I-80 to I-39 to get there. On the way, I saw those single span bridges that were mentioned in this thread a while back, and I have to admit, I like them. I don't know how much they cost, but they give a clean uncluttered look to the landscape.


Designed by the late structural engineer, Wei Hsiong. This was a design that he came up with after late IDOT District 3 Engineer Bob Blasius asked if an economical design could be achieved that eliminated the center pier. At each end there are counterweights attached to steel tendons that pull down the beam ends that are inside the vaulted abutments, sort of a fulcrum on each end that counteract the sag in the middle of the span. The whole corridor was inexpensive even by that era's standards, I was told the 51 miles from Oglesby to Normal came in around $350 million.
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Brandon

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1902 on: January 10, 2021, 12:00:26 AM »

I had to drive to Bloomington yesterday, and to mix things up a bit I took I-80 to I-39 to get there. On the way, I saw those single span bridges that were mentioned in this thread a while back, and I have to admit, I like them. I don't know how much they cost, but they give a clean uncluttered look to the landscape.


Designed by the late structural engineer, Wei Hsiong. This was a design that he came up with after late IDOT District 3 Engineer Bob Blasius asked if an economical design could be achieved that eliminated the center pier. At each end there are counterweights attached to steel tendons that pull down the beam ends that are inside the vaulted abutments, sort of a fulcrum on each end that counteract the sag in the middle of the span. The whole corridor was inexpensive even by that era's standards, I was told the 51 miles from Oglesby to Normal came in around $350 million.

They're a great idea, IMHO, and I'm surprised I've never seen them in use anywhere else in the state.
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ilpt4u

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1903 on: January 10, 2021, 12:17:10 AM »

They're a great idea, IMHO, and I'm surprised I've never seen them in use anywhere else in the state.
I could have sworn there is one on I-57 somewhere...next time I take the trip North Iíll keep my eyes open for it. I could very well be wrong, as well

I just feel like Iíve seen one of those bridges over another IL interstate other than just I-39, somewhere
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CtrlAltDel

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1904 on: January 10, 2021, 12:32:36 AM »

I could have sworn there is one on I-57 somewhere...next time I take the trip North I’ll keep my eyes open for it. I could very well be wrong, as well

I just feel like I’ve seen one of those bridges over another IL interstate other than just I-39, somewhere

There's one here. (It was mentioned above in the thread).
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Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

I-39

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1905 on: January 10, 2021, 09:16:48 AM »

I had to drive to Bloomington yesterday, and to mix things up a bit I took I-80 to I-39 to get there. On the way, I saw those single span bridges that were mentioned in this thread a while back, and I have to admit, I like them. I don't know how much they cost, but they give a clean uncluttered look to the landscape.


Designed by the late structural engineer, Wei Hsiong. This was a design that he came up with after late IDOT District 3 Engineer Bob Blasius asked if an economical design could be achieved that eliminated the center pier. At each end there are counterweights attached to steel tendons that pull down the beam ends that are inside the vaulted abutments, sort of a fulcrum on each end that counteract the sag in the middle of the span. The whole corridor was inexpensive even by that era's standards, I was told the 51 miles from Oglesby to Normal came in around $350 million.

This may be a dumb question, but when it comes time to replace the bridges in the future, how exactly would they go about reconstructing the bridges compared to a conventional bridge?
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3467

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1906 on: January 10, 2021, 12:18:54 PM »

Most of its re decking so probably the same? The 34 overpass over 67 was done . It was just a redeck. My guess is it will rarely need done on those low volume rural roads.
Also they cut the median size on 39. They used to have a model of 39 at IDOT  HQ.
Basically all the other freeways were under design by then so there really has been a chance to use it. Maybe the Feds will give us 20 billion to build them all.
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ilpt4u

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1907 on: January 10, 2021, 12:39:13 PM »

Also they cut the median size on 39. They used to have a model of 39 at IDOT  HQ.
Basically all the other freeways were under design by then so there really has been a chance to use it. Maybe the Feds will give us 20 billion to build them all.
Iím guessing the one in Kankakee over I-57 is there because I-57 has a fairly narrow median around Kankakee
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I-39

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1908 on: January 10, 2021, 01:47:23 PM »

Also they cut the median size on 39.

This was my point. I-39 north of the Illinois River has a much larger median/interchanges than south of it. The old pre-1980s design standards for interstates/freeways used up a lot more land than is necessary IMO, and probably was a big factor in killing most of the supplemental freeway proposal.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1909 on: January 10, 2021, 02:41:16 PM »

Also they cut the median size on 39.

This was my point. I-39 north of the Illinois River has a much larger median/interchanges than south of it. The old pre-1980s design standards for interstates/freeways used up a lot more land than is necessary IMO, and probably was a big factor in killing most of the supplemental freeway proposal.
I do know that the Illinois Farm Bureau (among others) was instrumental in reducing the median width from 88 feet (the previous standard of the 70s) to 54 feet for the stretch south of Oglesby, to conserve farm land, and the single span bridges were an outgrowth of that initiative. As far as freeway vs. expressway, the cost of farmland was pretty incidental to this or any of the other US 51 corridors, I doubt if IDOT paid more than $1-2k an acre at the time. Interestingly, back in the late 50s a median width of 40 feet was not uncommon for interstates, and much of the original I-80 in Illinois was built with it.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 02:43:27 PM by Rick Powell »
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I-39

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1910 on: January 10, 2021, 03:29:17 PM »

Also they cut the median size on 39.

This was my point. I-39 north of the Illinois River has a much larger median/interchanges than south of it. The old pre-1980s design standards for interstates/freeways used up a lot more land than is necessary IMO, and probably was a big factor in killing most of the supplemental freeway proposal.
I do know that the Illinois Farm Bureau (among others) was instrumental in reducing the median width from 88 feet (the previous standard of the 70s) to 54 feet for the stretch south of Oglesby, to conserve farm land, and the single span bridges were an outgrowth of that initiative. As far as freeway vs. expressway, the cost of farmland was pretty incidental to this or any of the other US 51 corridors, I doubt if IDOT paid more than $1-2k an acre at the time. Interestingly, back in the late 50s a median width of 40 feet was not uncommon for interstates, and much of the original I-80 in Illinois was built with it.

Itís info like this that just makes me scratch my head. Itís no wonder the supplemental freeway system didnít get built very far. Granted, some of the corridors just straight up werenít needed, but others that never got built truly were/are needed (i.e FAP 401/US 20). All thanks to the silly 70s freeway design standards. In the case of FAP 412/US 51, my understanding is the Bloomington to Decatur segment was originally set to be built to interstate standards on a new alignment west of the existing one, but thanks to the excessive 70s design standards, public opposition to the proposed ROW caused IDOT to scale it back to the expressway we see today. But the decision was made prior to the decision on the Oglesby to Normal segment (where there was similar opposition in the 70s) and the change in design standards. Had they waited on Bloomington to Decatur until they figured out what to between Oglesby and Normal, maybe they couldíve built a similar freeway facility and bridges on that segment and I-39 could end in Decatur instead of Normal.
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3467

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1911 on: January 10, 2021, 04:52:06 PM »

It was really the crazy inflation and the rising opposition that slowed it. Then traffic growth slowed and it became the list of expressways I mentioned. But most of those had bypasses and enthusiasm for those faded on low volume roads leaving those few projects I mentioned.
I suspect farmland won't be an issue in a decade.
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I-39

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1912 on: January 10, 2021, 10:18:24 PM »

It was really the crazy inflation and the rising opposition that slowed it. Then traffic growth slowed and it became the list of expressways I mentioned. But most of those had bypasses and enthusiasm for those faded on low volume roads leaving those few projects I mentioned.
I suspect farmland won't be an issue in a decade.

Outside of the Chicagoland area, I think the only supplemental freeways that should have been built to interstate grade for their entire length were US 20/FAP 401 and US 51/FAP 412. Everything else couldíve gotten away with four lane expressway or even less, especially in western Illinois.
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edwaleni

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1913 on: January 10, 2021, 10:43:26 PM »

Also they cut the median size on 39.

This was my point. I-39 north of the Illinois River has a much larger median/interchanges than south of it. The old pre-1980s design standards for interstates/freeways used up a lot more land than is necessary IMO, and probably was a big factor in killing most of the supplemental freeway proposal.
I do know that the Illinois Farm Bureau (among others) was instrumental in reducing the median width from 88 feet (the previous standard of the 70s) to 54 feet for the stretch south of Oglesby, to conserve farm land, and the single span bridges were an outgrowth of that initiative. As far as freeway vs. expressway, the cost of farmland was pretty incidental to this or any of the other US 51 corridors, I doubt if IDOT paid more than $1-2k an acre at the time. Interestingly, back in the late 50s a median width of 40 feet was not uncommon for interstates, and much of the original I-80 in Illinois was built with it.

I was the one that brought up this fascinating bridge design (I am a bridge nut) several years ago and you informed me on the background. I still think this is a fascinating design and one definitely built with safety in mind by removing the center pier.

But today I have seen some newer designs that use either pre-stressed concrete or steel to match the same amount of coverage without a center pier. So these are perfect for their purpose, an inexpensive way to support rural mobility around limited access.

I hope he won some award for this.

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edwaleni

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1914 on: January 10, 2021, 11:07:10 PM »

Also they cut the median size on 39. They used to have a model of 39 at IDOT  HQ.
Basically all the other freeways were under design by then so there really has been a chance to use it. Maybe the Feds will give us 20 billion to build them all.
Iím guessing the one in Kankakee over I-57 is there because I-57 has a fairly narrow median around Kankakee

Yep. That ROW was built out in 1953! Different standards.
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mgk920

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1915 on: January 12, 2021, 01:07:50 PM »

Heck, I often wonder why the narrow ROW standards that are S.O.P. for motorways in Europe (very, very, very few of them don't have narrow/barrier medians) are not more common here in North America.

Mike
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JREwing78

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1916 on: January 12, 2021, 09:00:35 PM »

Heck, I often wonder why the narrow ROW standards that are S.O.P. for motorways in Europe (very, very, very few of them don't have narrow/barrier medians) are not more common here in North America.

Land is cheaper in most areas than median barriers?
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Rick Powell

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1917 on: January 12, 2021, 11:55:23 PM »

Heck, I often wonder why the narrow ROW standards that are S.O.P. for motorways in Europe (very, very, very few of them don't have narrow/barrier medians) are not more common here in North America.

Land is cheaper in most areas than median barriers?

You could buy about 500 feet of 80' median right-of-way (roughly an acre's worth) for $1,000 to $2,000 back in the day in rural areas. 500 feet of concrete barrier would probably set you back $5,000 or more in the 70s. However, if you have a lot of overhead bridges, the extra length of the bridges will more than offset the cost savings of wide median vs. concrete barrier. Also, if the roadway or shoulders are pitched inward at the barrier, there are extra costs for inlets and pipes to drain it. So it depends.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 11:59:41 PM by Rick Powell »
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Revive 755

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1918 on: January 15, 2021, 09:31:03 PM »

IDOT is seeking is seeking input on potential alternative configurations for the Business Loop 55/Veterans Parkway intersection with IL 9/Empire Street in Normal.

https://www.veteransparkwayoutreach.com/alternate-configurations

The options are:

1) No build
2) Full CFI
3) SPUI (Veterans over and free flowing in the picture)
4) DDI (Veterans under and free flowing in the picture)
5) Echelon (NB and WB on the upper level)
6) Throughabout (Veterans goes through)
7) Center Turn Overpass
8) A large conventional intersection - NB has a triple left, three throughs, and a dual right; WB and EB also have dual rights, may be other movements with triple lefts.
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edwaleni

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1919 on: January 16, 2021, 01:19:01 PM »

IDOT is seeking is seeking input on potential alternative configurations for the Business Loop 55/Veterans Parkway intersection with IL 9/Empire Street in Normal.

https://www.veteransparkwayoutreach.com/alternate-configurations

The options are:

1) No build
2) Full CFI
3) SPUI (Veterans over and free flowing in the picture)
4) DDI (Veterans under and free flowing in the picture)
5) Echelon (NB and WB on the upper level)
6) Throughabout (Veterans goes through)
7) Center Turn Overpass
8) A large conventional intersection - NB has a triple left, three throughs, and a dual right; WB and EB also have dual rights, may be other movements with triple lefts.

Since there is no retail like gas stations, strip malls etc. involved, I would vote for a full SPUI.

The enlarged roundabout is a huge non-starter. Accident central.
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Crash_It

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1920 on: January 16, 2021, 11:00:45 PM »

IDOT is seeking is seeking input on potential alternative configurations for the Business Loop 55/Veterans Parkway intersection with IL 9/Empire Street in Normal.

https://www.veteransparkwayoutreach.com/alternate-configurations

The options are:

1) No build
2) Full CFI
3) SPUI (Veterans over and free flowing in the picture)
4) DDI (Veterans under and free flowing in the picture)
5) Echelon (NB and WB on the upper level)
6) Throughabout (Veterans goes through)
7) Center Turn Overpass
8) A large conventional intersection - NB has a triple left, three throughs, and a dual right; WB and EB also have dual rights, may be other movements with triple lefts.

Since there is no retail like gas stations, strip malls etc. involved, I would vote for a full SPUI.

The enlarged roundabout is a huge non-starter. Accident central.


I would opt for a DDI, those are fun to drive through
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Rick Powell

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1921 on: January 17, 2021, 04:09:17 PM »

Since there is no retail like gas stations, strip malls etc. involved, I would vote for a full SPUI.
That's where I put my vote, although I would have liked to had some info other than aesthetics to go off of (intersection delay, level of service, crash estimates, etc.)
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kphoger

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1922 on: January 18, 2021, 10:50:50 AM »

I would opt for a DDI, those are fun to drive through

I really hope they don't make their decision based on "fun to drive"...
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skluth

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1923 on: January 18, 2021, 08:00:44 PM »

It's been years since I drove through there, mostly just to see what the old bypass looked like while they were rebuilding I-55/I-74 west of Bloomington. I voted for the SPUI because it looks like the busiest left turns look like they could be on the same left turn and I don't know how much through traffic is on IL 9 (which is less affected by a SPUI than a DDI). Besides, I love SPUIs and think they are best solution for most busy diamond situations if they can be built.
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ixnay

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Re: Illinois notes
« Reply #1924 on: February 09, 2021, 04:34:19 PM »

Outside Mossville, northeast of Peoria, IL 6 ends at a stub "in the middle of nowhere".  (Ramps connect that freeway to IL 29 which follows Upper Peoria Lake.

Does anybody know the story of where IL 6 was intended to go?

ixnay

P.S.  I noticed this IL 6 quirk when accessing https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article249108050.html (an article about a riot at an indoor trampoline park in Peoria's north suburbs), then Google Mapping the address, then switching to Google Sat and sliding the map around via the mouse.

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