NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway go MUTCD!

[roadman65]

NJDOT believes that most motorists are locals

Most motorists are locals.

Exactly!

[kkt]

NJDOT believes that most motorists are locals

Most motorists are locals.

It's the motorists from out of town who need the signs.

[NJRoadfan]

By the way, is it possible this was designed and installed as part of the Missing Ramps contract, rather than the "big signing contract"?

That sign is new. The Exit 142B sign put up when the ramp was built was mounted on a butterfly gantry in the gore of the I-78 east ramp seen here: http://goo.gl/maps/ni9QL

[roadman65]

Well, NYC is a big place, so bridges are the best way to navigate.  If someone really needs to have signs on the Garden State Parkway for NYC, then at its northern terminus for I-87 SB there is a "New York City" sign.  I know it seems that no one would go that far out of the way, but if they cannot read a map they deserve to go the long way.

I used to work in a resort in Orlando, FL, and we used to have people who would tell me that coming from Miami to Orlando they would use I-95 north to I-4 west instead of the Turnpike or even exiting I-95 at Cocoa for FL 528.  Plus what Jeff and Nicole tell me he encountered as a toll collector and other people I know who were leaving Orlando International Airport to go to Disney and end up in Port Caneveral almost 50 miles away.  Then back when the FL Turnpike was a closed system through Orlando, I would hear people say that accidentally would exit I-4 onto the FL Turnpike and make a u turn after the toll (illegally of course) and then pay the highest toll on the system for making that turn.

People are strange, to say the least.

[Alps]

I am glad you brought up the fact that NJDOT is poor on lane drops.  For years in Elizabeth where the SB right lane exited onto Elizabeth Avenue before the Elizabeth River Viaduct was rebuilt there was no warnings that the lane drop, but a flashing yellow gore light at the point of diversion.

Sigh... US 1/9 south, you mean.

In addition, at I-78 Westbound at I-287 the right lane dropped as well onto I-287 without warning, although overhead there was a "KEEP LEFT" on the I-78 pull through, but still not your standard warning.  When I was there last Summer, I noticed they did restripe the lanes at Exit 29, but no lane control or supplementary signs were posted that I could have saw then.

Seasonal names are not capitalized, oh, and by the way, all of the I-78 and I-287 approaches do now have EXIT ONLY signs on the bottom, retrofit about 5-6 years ago.

[jeffandnicole]

South Jersey is a bit better signing lane drops. The only sign that really irritates me is at Exit 13 on I-295 South, where 130 splits off to the right. Even though there's 4 lanes, the graphical lane sign only shows 3. And while the right-center lane splits for both roadways, the sign indicates the center lane is the one splitting, which leads to a lot of quick last second lane switching.

[Don'tKnowYet]

South Jersey is a bit better signing lane drops. The only sign that really irritates me is at Exit 13 on I-295 South, where 130 splits off to the right. Even though there's 4 lanes, the graphical lane sign only shows 3. And while the right-center lane splits for both roadways, the sign indicates the center lane is the one splitting, which leads to a lot of quick last second lane switching.

Exactly.  My friends and i always thought that Figure 2E-5 in the MUTCD was the FHWA's subliminal message to tell NJDOT to fix it.

[vdeane]

Well, NYC is a big place, so bridges are the best way to navigate.  If someone really needs to have signs on the Garden State Parkway for NYC, then at its northern terminus for I-87 SB there is a "New York City" sign.  I know it seems that no one would go that far out of the way, but if they cannot read a map they deserve to go the long way.

The reason NYC is signed there is because it's the only control city on I-87 south on the Thruway.  Neither NYSDOT or NYSTA will acknowledge the I-87/287 multiplex unless forced (the signage for it is to appease the FHWA only), so you won't see I-287's eastbound control cities appearing west of the Tappan Zee any time soon.

[roadman65]

Per lane diagram signing is appearing on the GSP (Exit 142 B-C northbound shown), so that big signing contract is well underway. No rounded corners on this one either.



The friend who took this picture thought it was confusing. Definitely not one of the popular additions to the 2009 MUTCD. Button copy fans better get out there quick, whatever is left of NJDOT era signing is likely going to vanish quickly.

This type of sign is supposed to replace this type of signing.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/8545450160/in/photostream
US 41 & 301 Southbound in Bradenton, FL.

[roadman65]

Well, NYC is a big place, so bridges are the best way to navigate.  If someone really needs to have signs on the Garden State Parkway for NYC, then at its northern terminus for I-87 SB there is a "New York City" sign.  I know it seems that no one would go that far out of the way, but if they cannot read a map they deserve to go the long way.

The reason NYC is signed there is because it's the only control city on I-87 south on the Thruway.  Neither NYSDOT or NYSTA will acknowledge the I-87/287 multiplex unless forced (the signage for it is to appease the FHWA only), so you won't see I-287's eastbound control cities appearing west of the Tappan Zee any time soon.

Actually the Palisades Interstate Parkway does use White Plains as the control for Southbound I-87 & Eastbound I-287 a point along I-287.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Nanuet,+NY&hl=en&ll=41.095669,-73.990967&spn=0.004115,0.010568&sll=27.698638,-83.804601&sspn=9.892242,21.643066&oq=nanu&t=h&hnear=Nanuet,+Rockland,+New+York&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.095852,-73.990987&panoid=Rz_moNxx6yI2O-Rg9P8R7w&cbp=12,1.09,,0,0

[SignBridge]

Hmmm...........that sign on the Palisades Pkwy. should also show that I-87 goes south, instead of showing east for both 87/287.

Re: the earlier post alluding to fig. 2E-5 in the MUTCD, I can't believe the Manual would show some town nobody ever heard of (Deepwater, NJ) as a control city on an Interstate. I would use Wilmington, De. at that 295/130 split. BTW, that picture only shows 3 lanes, not 4.

[roadman65]

Hmmm...........that sign on the Palisades Pkwy. should also show that I-87 goes south, instead of showing east for both 87/287.

Re: the earlier post alluding to fig. 2E-5 in the MUTCD, I can't believe the Manual would show some town nobody ever heard of (Deepwater, NJ) as a control city on an Interstate. I would use Wilmington, De. at that 295/130 split. BTW, that picture only shows 3 lanes, not 4.

Or better yet, why is Ewing used for I-295 Northbound instead of Trenton? Look at the mileage signs.  First of all I-295 does not even go there as well as Trenton is NB I-295 control city anyhow.

[SignBridge]

Agreed, NJDOT does seem to orient the signs more to local communities, than bigger towns and cities. This is contrary to national FHWA policy. MUTCD Section 2E.02.01 (Support) states that the sign system is primarily for the benefit of drivers not familiar with the route or area. Hence the use of well known control cities. NJDOT appears to defeat that purpose. Between this issue and the lane-drop problem, you wonder what cloud NJDOT's engineers are on.

P.S. Penna. is no better. They sign U.S.1 in the Langhorne vicinity as Morrisville instead of Trenton, NJ. It's like these state DOT's don't see past the state line.

[NJRoadfan]

Hmmm...........that sign on the Palisades Pkwy. should also show that I-87 goes south, instead of showing east for both 87/287.

Re: the earlier post alluding to fig. 2E-5 in the MUTCD, I can't believe the Manual would show some town nobody ever heard of (Deepwater, NJ) as a control city on an Interstate. I would use Wilmington, De. at that 295/130 split. BTW, that picture only shows 3 lanes, not 4.

The old Exit 13 sign at that location per-reconstruction had the proper lane layout, plus it didn't have the bubble US shields it has now.



I seem to recall seeing I-295 South with Deepwater as a control city at one time.

[NJRoadfan]

Or better yet, why is Ewing used for I-295 Northbound instead of Trenton? Look at the mileage signs.  First of all I-295 does not even go there as well as Trenton is NB I-295 control city anyhow.

Northbound BGSes all say Trenton. Mileage signs are a tad weird in NJ. They usually show the true terminus of the highway as the most distant point. For example, while NJ-23 south is often signed as "Newark", the mileage signs will show its true end in Verona. I-295 was truncated back to US-1, so Ewing is likely from the days I-95 vanished between Exits 4 and 5.

[SignBridge]

Roadfan, the routes and destinations on the sign in your photo are much more effective than those shown in the Manual.

As we've seen on this board real-world signing problems are often more complex than the examples in the MUTCD. So yes, sometimes engineering judgement and innovative design might be more effective than following the technical rule.

[vdeane]

Well, NYC is a big place, so bridges are the best way to navigate.  If someone really needs to have signs on the Garden State Parkway for NYC, then at its northern terminus for I-87 SB there is a "New York City" sign.  I know it seems that no one would go that far out of the way, but if they cannot read a map they deserve to go the long way.

The reason NYC is signed there is because it's the only control city on I-87 south on the Thruway.  Neither NYSDOT or NYSTA will acknowledge the I-87/287 multiplex unless forced (the signage for it is to appease the FHWA only), so you won't see I-287's eastbound control cities appearing west of the Tappan Zee any time soon.

Actually the Palisades Interstate Parkway does use White Plains as the control for Southbound I-87 & Eastbound I-287 a point along I-287.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Nanuet,+NY&hl=en&ll=41.095669,-73.990967&spn=0.004115,0.010568&sll=27.698638,-83.804601&sspn=9.892242,21.643066&oq=nanu&t=h&hnear=Nanuet,+Rockland,+New+York&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.095852,-73.990987&panoid=Rz_moNxx6yI2O-Rg9P8R7w&cbp=12,1.09,,0,0

Looks like NYSDOT is friendlier to I-287 than NYSTA (which controls the NY portion of the Garden State Parkway).

Hmmm...........that sign on the Palisades Pkwy. should also show that I-87 goes south, instead of showing east for both 87/287.

Re: the earlier post alluding to fig. 2E-5 in the MUTCD, I can't believe the Manual would show some town nobody ever heard of (Deepwater, NJ) as a control city on an Interstate. I would use Wilmington, De. at that 295/130 split. BTW, that picture only shows 3 lanes, not 4.

I've noticed that region 8 doesn't seem to like signing multiple directions in a multiplex.  I-587 is even north-south officially since NY 28 is officially north-south (even though it's signed east-west at either end).

[Roadsguy]

P.S. Penna. is no better. They sign U.S.1 in the Langhorne vicinity as Morrisville instead of Trenton, NJ. It's like these state DOT's don't see past the state line.

Isn't it signed as Trenton north (east) of 95? 95's control city from Philly north is Trenton, and I think it shifts to US 1, but I know for sure that signs south of 95 say Morrisville, which is weird.

EDIT: Nope, the Trenton control city just disappears at US 1 and turns into Princeton, with Morrisville remaining US 1's NB control city...

[Brandon]

Per lane diagram signing is appearing on the GSP (Exit 142 B-C northbound shown), so that big signing contract is well underway. No rounded corners on this one either.



The friend who took this picture thought it was confusing. Definitely not one of the popular additions to the 2009 MUTCD. Button copy fans better get out there quick, whatever is left of NJDOT era signing is likely going to vanish quickly.

It looks like the type of signage you see in Ontario.

[SignBridge]

Thanks Roadsguy. I see that you're somewhat youthful, compared to some of us on this board. Welcome to inconsistent real-life where things often aren't like the textbook. LOL

[roadman65]

Someone mentioned that the recent 80 to 63 widening included mileage signs on the southbound GSP in Beachwood for Long Beach Island and Atlantic City.  I was wondering if we are going to see more mileage signs and finally control cities on the Parkway and side roads instead of the "G.S. Parkway" like on I-78 for its signs?

I also know that  the NJ Turnpike is using control cities south of Exit 5 on pull through instead of the "THRU TRAFFIC NEXT EXIT XX MILES" that have been the norm for over 40 years.  Are they going to put them back on the ramps that exchanged them for "TURNPIKE NORTH" and "TURNPIKE SOUTH" like at Exits 8A and 11?

Also about Ewing for mileage control on I-295, all those signs were erected in the 90's long after I-295 truncated to Lawrence.  I believe at the time NJDOT expected that FHWA would grant the request to extend I-295 into PA when the I-95 and PA Turnpike interchange is to be completed.  In fact north of Bordentown there is a mileage sign for both Ewing and Yardley, so it would appear that the assumption that the endpoint of the roads (like with NJ 23) is to be the farthest control point on newer NJDOT signs.

[jeffandnicole]

Hmmm...........that sign on the Palisades Pkwy. should also show that I-87 goes south, instead of showing east for both 87/287.

Re: the earlier post alluding to fig. 2E-5 in the MUTCD, I can't believe the Manual would show some town nobody ever heard of (Deepwater, NJ) as a control city on an Interstate. I would use Wilmington, De. at that 295/130 split. BTW, that picture only shows 3 lanes, not 4.

The old Exit 13 sign at that location per-reconstruction had the proper lane layout, plus it didn't have the bubble US shields it has now.



I seem to recall seeing I-295 South with Deepwater as a control city at one time.

Yep, that was the old - and correct - sign. Not even sure why they needed to replace it in the first place.

[_Simon]

There has to be someone responsible for this that we can beat the shit out of confront bribe talk to.  How many signage engineers does the turnpike authority have and do we know them? 

[kphoger]

NJDOT believes that most motorists are locals

Most motorists are locals.

It's the motorists from out of town who need the signs.

Exactly!

If someone really needs to have signs on the Garden State Parkway for NYC, then at its northern terminus for I-87 SB there is a "New York City" sign.  I know it seems that no one would go that far out of the way, but if they cannot read a map they deserve to go the long way.

I'm pretty sure that destination legend is intended for people who haven't already plotted their route out by number on the map.  If we all did that, then nobody would ever need destination legend, just route numbers.

[SignBridge]

Let me get this straight...........the diagrammatic sign pictured above is the old sign? Well..........what destinations are on the new sign? Is it the one in the MUTCD showing Deepwater and Bridgeport, but no bridges ?