AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: German Autobahns  (Read 67758 times)

Chris

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2245
  • International road enthusiast

  • Age: 31
  • Location: the Netherlands
  • Last Login: Today at 10:00:38 AM
    • Flickr
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #175 on: February 13, 2019, 04:09:54 AM »

Distracted driving is usually cited as the main factor. Speeding is not possible since all trucks in the EU are governed, so they can drive only a few km/h over the speed limit.

Driving in Germany is very monotonous for truck drivers. The speed limit is 80 km/h (50 mph), truck traffic is generally heavy so you are basically always driving in a slow-moving caravan. The surroundings of the Autobahn are often filled with trees, so there isn't much to see either.

Another tricky thing is that truck traffic jams could start several kilometers earlier than that of car traffic. It's not uncommon to see a 3-4 kilometer lineup of stopped trucks on the right lane while car traffic is still free-flowing on the left lanes.

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10022
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Seattle and Tacoma, WA Vancouver, BC | Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:44:40 AM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #176 on: February 13, 2019, 10:09:53 PM »

(^^acknowledged)

Speeding is not possible since all trucks in the EU are governed, so they can drive only a few km/h over the speed limit.

I don't mean speeding over the limit. I mean, speeding when environmental factors dictated that a lower limit would have been more appropriate. In the US, you are generally only hit with this kind of ticket when involved in an accident that could have been avoided if travelling at a lower speed. I suppose the equivalent in Germany would be a truck travelling at 80 in lane 2, next to a line of stopped trucks.
Logged

abefroman329

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3151
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Chicago
  • Last Login: April 29, 2019, 05:55:26 PM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #177 on: February 14, 2019, 10:26:19 AM »

In the US, you are generally only hit with this kind of ticket when involved in an accident that could have been avoided if travelling at a lower speed.
I don't see why tickets couldn't be written for "driving too fast for conditions" when there isn't an actual accident, but maybe that becomes more difficult to prove when there wasn't a negative result of driving too fast for conditions, such as an accident.
Logged

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10022
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Seattle and Tacoma, WA Vancouver, BC | Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:44:40 AM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #178 on: February 14, 2019, 02:38:53 PM »

In the US, you are generally only hit with this kind of ticket when involved in an accident that could have been avoided if travelling at a lower speed.
I don't see why tickets couldn't be written for "driving too fast for conditions" when there isn't an actual accident, but maybe that becomes more difficult to prove when there wasn't a negative result of driving too fast for conditions, such as an accident.

I think that's the idea. Too hard to prove. It's easy to prove if an accident occurs, although the reasoning is still "hindsight 20/20".
Logged

webfil

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 323
  • I thought being taught would be tough, though.

  • Age: 31
  • Location: Matane, QC, Canada
  • Last Login: August 20, 2019, 10:53:41 PM
    • Le livre noir de la vie en Basse-Ville
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2019, 11:41:33 AM »

Having only driven 15-20 hours on the Autobahnen in Germany, I might have unclear memory if this dispositive is existent or not. I know for sure the southern neighbour has ,,Bei Nebel'' speed limits on its Autobahnen, where one must adapt its speed to the number of dots visible on the shoulder through fog clouds. That makes speeding in these bad conditions, at least, pretty easy to prove.


Not talking about the variable speed limits, with motives of lowering that go from CO2 reduction to presence of black ice or jams that impose a strict speed limit, but a somewhat measurable bid to adapt.
Logged

Tito_zz

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: Germany
  • Last Login: August 22, 2019, 01:47:38 PM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #180 on: June 28, 2019, 08:31:11 AM »

Well, we have it when it's wet.
Logged
Just a roadgeek making road signs!
I know road signs of:
D,CH,FL,A,F,USA,RA
Wanna know road signs of:
I,RUS,DK

Ja zur A98! http://www.rhnet.de/a98/image/JA-zur-A98-V4-gross.gif

bing101

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2736
  • Last Login: Today at 10:44:57 AM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #181 on: July 03, 2019, 11:58:11 AM »

Logged

D-Dey65

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2165
  • Age: 53
  • Last Login: August 22, 2019, 10:16:05 PM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #182 on: August 12, 2019, 08:37:29 AM »


The curves in this picture reminds me so much of I-75 at the Pasco-Hernando County line. Add some extra lanes and shoulders, and replace foliage and the bottom of the hill with a bridge over a small creek and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.


I saw the old episode of "Modern Marvels" that covered the Autobahn like everyone else, but I also saw something recently on the overall evil of the Third Reich on the "American Heroes Channel," which had an episode about the Autobahn with a few more details. It mentioned the fact that car ownership and culture was practically non-existent in Germany compared to the UK, and ours left both countries in the dust. It also gave more details about the refusal to let the workers use construction machinery at first. The Nazis wanted to make them build it by hand as a propaganda tool to prove the "superiority of the Aryan Worker," but the work was kicking the asses of the Aryan worker. They even had a memorial to employees who were killed for complaining about the conditions.

Logged

SignBridge

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1308
  • Location: Long Island, New York
  • Last Login: August 22, 2019, 09:19:59 PM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #183 on: August 12, 2019, 09:13:44 PM »

That last photo looks a lot like the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut. LOL With those woefully inadequate shoulders it would not even meet U.S. Interstate standards.
Logged

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10022
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Seattle and Tacoma, WA Vancouver, BC | Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:44:40 AM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #184 on: August 13, 2019, 12:29:19 AM »

That last photo looks a lot like the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut. LOL With those woefully inadequate shoulders it would not even meet U.S. Interstate standards.

This is true, and such is brought up quite often when comparing Interstates to Autobahns. But I don't fully understand why us Americans are so proud of our visible standards, when the "invisible" standards are, arguably, more important: deeper pavement depths, gentler slopes, gentler corners, etc; plus, driving rules are far stricter, making simple things like shoulders almost go unused due to how well-maintained the average German car is (or, so it would seem).

I like shoulders as much as the next guy, but all they do is afford the average American driver more room to screw up, which is apparently an inevitability. I'm not saying our standards shouldn't make it easier for idiots to survive, but the German standards are proof that our lane width and shoulder standards are basically airbags, required only because our drivers are just. that. bad.
Logged

J N Winkler

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6313
  • Location: Wichita, Kansas/Oxford, Great Britain
  • Last Login: Today at 11:12:53 AM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #185 on: August 13, 2019, 11:48:23 AM »

This is true, and such is brought up quite often when comparing Interstates to Autobahns. But I don't fully understand why us Americans are so proud of our visible standards, when the "invisible" standards are, arguably, more important: deeper pavement depths, gentler slopes, gentler corners, etc; plus, driving rules are far stricter, making simple things like shoulders almost go unused due to how well-maintained the average German car is (or, so it would seem).

The Germans have historically had much stricter standards for horizontal and vertical alignment, with one exception--during the Nazi period grades of up to 8% (exceptionally 8.5%) were allowed.  The stylized fact is that the Germans also insist on more thorough preparation of the subgrade (dewatering, attainment of a minimum bearing capacity, etc.) before they lay down base and surfacing, but they have had their share of wick drain failures.  Thicker pavement is partly a response to heavy truck traffic--on a mass-distance basis the modal share of trucks in the EU generally is about 80%, versus 30% in the US.

I like shoulders as much as the next guy, but all they do is afford the average American driver more room to screw up, which is apparently an inevitability. I'm not saying our standards shouldn't make it easier for idiots to survive, but the German standards are proof that our lane width and shoulder standards are basically airbags, required only because our drivers are just. that. bad.

For all their (usually quite expensive) training, Germans screw up too, especially at high speeds where there is very little margin for error.  Interurban congestion on the Autobahn network is now so bad that Germans are not noticeably better off than coastal Americans in terms of journey time reliability.  Provision of full paved right shoulders has been the norm since at least the early 1960's and makes possible certain incident management techniques, such as the creation of a Rettungsweg to allow emergency vehicles to reach the scene of an accident by straddling the line dividing the overtaking and driving lanes.
Logged
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

SignBridge

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1308
  • Location: Long Island, New York
  • Last Login: August 22, 2019, 09:19:59 PM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #186 on: August 13, 2019, 08:57:13 PM »

I should have also mentioned that I believe that photo was of a former East German Autobahn. If I remember right, they were built to more primitive standards than the West German ones were.
Logged

Chris

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2245
  • International road enthusiast

  • Age: 31
  • Location: the Netherlands
  • Last Login: Today at 10:00:38 AM
    • Flickr
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #187 on: August 14, 2019, 04:07:25 AM »

That photo was taken between Bad Hersfeld and Eisenach, which is in former West Germany. It was built in the 1940s as a Reichsautobahn but not upgraded much until the 2010s. There was an inner German border checkpoint until 1990, so there wasn't much traffic using it. This section has recently been improved (curvature, shoulders), but not widened to six lanes as A4 in former East Germany has, because future A44 to Kassel is supposed to siphon off traffic from A4. However the completion of A44 is very much delayed.

mgk920

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 3395
  • Location: Appleton, WI USA
  • Last Login: Today at 11:44:16 AM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #188 on: August 14, 2019, 11:09:21 AM »

That photo was taken between Bad Hersfeld and Eisenach, which is in former West Germany. It was built in the 1940s as a Reichsautobahn but not upgraded much until the 2010s. There was an inner German border checkpoint until 1990, so there wasn't much traffic using it. This section has recently been improved (curvature, shoulders), but not widened to six lanes as A4 in former East Germany has, because future A44 to Kassel is supposed to siphon off traffic from A4. However the completion of A44 is very much delayed.

Agreed, it was a pre-War route (BTW, Eisenach was in the East).  I mentioned upthread about ten years ago that the A4 crossed the former Iron Curtain border three times in quick succession on that section, the westernmost two of those crossings were cut off by the 'Wall' and traffic had to detour around it via local surface roads while the easternmost one is where the 'transit' checkpoint was located, just east of Herleshausen.  That was the last city in the 'West' along the A4.  Restoring the A4 over that section was one of the first priorities of the German Federal Transport Ministry after the reunification (October, 1990), while the checkpoint itself is now a pair of service plazas and a Cold War museum.

It is fascinating to explore that entire Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain border area on Google aerial photos.  (Man, I wish that Germany would get over its lingering 'Stasi' privacy fears and let the Streetview camera cars back in - the Wall fell nearly 30 years ago already!  :banghead: )

An aside, I've always thought that the 'no mans land' strip on the former innerdeutsche/Iron Curtain border would make an amazing historic, scenic and recreational linear park, complete with a pedestrian/bicycle pathway running down its length.  Perusing those aerial images tells me that the vast majority of it is still intact and a few parts of the no-mans land strip of the Wall in Berlin are in fact being used as such.

Mike
Logged

vdeane

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10205
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Latham, NY
  • Last Login: August 22, 2019, 08:29:46 PM
    • New York State Roads
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #189 on: August 14, 2019, 01:51:13 PM »

It is fascinating to explore that entire Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain border area on Google aerial photos.  (Man, I wish that Germany would get over its lingering 'Stasi' privacy fears and let the Streetview camera cars back in - the Wall fell nearly 30 years ago already!  :banghead: )
It's legal now, but Google decided not to go back for a while.  That said, this may be changing, as Google's street view page identifies locations in the country where they'll be driving this year.
http://techland.time.com/2011/04/11/alas-there-will-be-no-more-google-street-view-in-germany/
https://www.google.com/streetview/explore/
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10022
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Seattle and Tacoma, WA Vancouver, BC | Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:44:40 AM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #190 on: August 14, 2019, 08:34:28 PM »

It is fascinating to explore that entire Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain border area on Google aerial photos.  (Man, I wish that Germany would get over its lingering 'Stasi' privacy fears and let the Streetview camera cars back in - the Wall fell nearly 30 years ago already!  :banghead: )
It's legal now, but Google decided not to go back for a while.  That said, this may be changing, as Google's street view page identifies locations in the country where they'll be driving this year.
http://techland.time.com/2011/04/11/alas-there-will-be-no-more-google-street-view-in-germany/
https://www.google.com/streetview/explore/

That's great news! I always wondered if they'd go back. Had not heard that any laws changed. Can't find anything on Google about that fact either, though.
Logged

vdeane

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10205
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Latham, NY
  • Last Login: August 22, 2019, 08:29:46 PM
    • New York State Roads
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #191 on: August 14, 2019, 08:48:53 PM »

It was actually a ruling from a judge (from first link of previous post):
Quote
A recent court decision has made street photography legal, so Google has no current reason to pull away.
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 10022
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Seattle and Tacoma, WA Vancouver, BC | Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:44:40 AM
Re: German Autobahns
« Reply #192 on: August 14, 2019, 11:17:38 PM »

It was actually a ruling from a judge (from first link of previous post):
Quote
A recent court decision has made street photography legal, so Google has no current reason to pull away.

I saw that link. I thought you were implying that the ruling was more recent. There were further legal challenges. Perhaps they've been wrapped up...

https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/23/germanys-complicated-relationship-with-google-street-view/
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.