N.Y.: Black and White and Wallet-Size, Unfit for Faking

[cpzilliacus]

N.Y. Times: Black and White and Wallet-Size, Unfit for Faking

Over the years, the authorities across the nation have tried all manner of tactics to combat fake drivers' licenses. Holograms. Water marks. Even blunt red letters reading "UNDER 21."

Now, however, New York is turning to a new design with a retro look: portraits in black and white.

Beginning in July, the state's drivers who are seeking new licenses will be issued hard polycarbonate cards with photos that appear black and white, replacing the bendable color version, a move toward the monochromatic that is also being tried in several other states.

[SP Cook]

Umm, because no NY underage wannabe drinker would ever think of getting a fake ID from another state.

[cpzilliacus]

Umm, because no NY underage wannabe drinker would ever think of getting a fake ID from another state.

Yet another reason why the drinking age in the United States should be 18 (at least for "on" sales).  Of the many bad laws enacted during the Reagan Administration, succumbing to sob stories from MADD was one of the worst.

[vdeane]

Wonderful, a way to make my image look even worse.  And it's not until 2020 that my licence is up for renewal.  Good thing I was wearing makeup - I'd look even worse if I wasn't.

I wonder how this will work for enhanced licences.  The enhanced logo/banner is done in color.

[empirestate]

Umm, because no NY underage wannabe drinker would ever think of getting a fake ID from another state.

Well, I guess NYS decided it had no authority over other states' IDs, so it left them out of this initiative. 

Wonderful, a way to make my image look even worse.  And it's not until 2020 that my licence is up for renewal.  Good thing I was wearing makeup - I'd look even worse if I wasn't.

Perhaps you've just discovered the most surefire way to spot a fake license: simply ask, "Do you like your license photo?" and if the answer is yes, it's definitely bogus!

I wonder how this will work for enhanced licences.  The enhanced logo/banner is done in color.

Don't see why it would change; per the sample photo, everything else on the card besides the photo–excuse me, "portrait"–is still in color.

[corco]

In fact, if you're getting a fake it's pretty stupid to get one from the state in which you live no matter what as those are more likely to be readily identified as counterfeit.

Arizona licenses are good for forgeries because they're quite simple- the only hitch is that they don't expire until you turn 65, which raises eyebrows in some areas. I bought some tobacco in Arkansas last summer and when I got carded they thought the license was fake because it didn't expire until 2053.

If I live in New York though, I'd get an Idaho license or something because how many people out there would know what one of those even looks like- as long as it's not a terrible forgery and isn't going to be scanned it should be fine. I did check ins at a hotel for two years so I saw a lot of picture IDs from lots of different states, and I couldn't really tell you off the top of my head what any state's ID looks like - I can picture ID/WA/WY/AZ/MT because I've lived in those places and had a license there, and I can visualize what a California ID looks like because I saw a ton of those, but...as far as like a New Mexico license? As long as it had a zia on it somewhere I doubt I'd be able to identify a fake, and I'm sure I've seen at least a hundred different NM licenses.

[Scott5114]

Yeah. You don't even have to try all that hard, since if anyone has seen the far away state's license before, any irregularities can be explained with "Oh, West Virginia must have changed their license since the last time you saw one. I'm familiar with OK/TX/KS and CA, anything else, I wouldn't know the difference unless it was so poor quality as to be obvious.

What I don't get is how does making the portrait black and white make it harder to counterfeit? I'd think it'd do the opposite. Okay, looks like the portrait is gonna be laser-engraved, and that, not the black and white, is what makes it hard to counterfeit. Not that you couldn't overlook it from the way that the article stresses how black and white the image is going to be.

[empirestate]

I used my NYS license to buy beer in Colorado once. It was the previous generation design, a soft, flimsy plastic almost like stiff card paper. That was what made the clerk suspicious, and while I offered him my passport as backup, he insisted on satisfying himself with the authenticity of my license.

Meanwhile, in PA it seems to be permissible to allow only PA licenses as proof of I.D., since I've seen that requirement listed more than once. Mind you, not only does that exclude out-of-state licenses, but anything else that isn't a drivers license. I have been flatly refused service with my U.S. passport (which I rather resented, since I had purposely brought a bunch of friends with me to that place, as I thought it was nice and deserved extra business).

I have serious doubts as to the legality of this, of course, except insofar as business owners require no reason to refuse service. (I'd prefer no reason to this reason!) But I'd also be very interested to watch the situation unfold as someone was being turned down for their military ID. Denying things to people in the service tends to be looked on unfavorably in most of the country, and PA is no stranger to that sentiment!

[nexus73]

Delay adulthood and it's experiences and all that gets delayed is the growing up.  Back when I was young, teens got drunk and stoned.  A few got some "teen angel" tragic headlines but by and large almost all of us survived the times and grew up.  Heck, even Dick Cheney got hit with two DUI's in 9 months when he was young and he went on to become Veep.  So much for youthful indiscretions! 

Now by delaying the legal drinking age to 21, the mistakes of the teen years just get shifted forward into the 20's in a society that is much more uptight about the small stuff or at least it was small back in the day.  Kids are going to experiment with intoxicants, sex, driving fast and fads.  It's time to recognize human realities and have laws that do so instead of the PC correct crapola that passes for laws these days which only makes criminals out of those who get caught playing the game of growing up. 

Enough of the nanny statist stuff from both the Left and Right!  Does everything under the sun need to be regulated?

Rick

[Duke87]

Meanwhile, in PA it seems to be permissible to allow only PA licenses as proof of I.D., since I've seen that requirement listed more than once. Mind you, not only does that exclude out-of-state licenses, but anything else that isn't a drivers license. I have been flatly refused service with my U.S. passport (which I rather resented, since I had purposely brought a bunch of friends with me to that place, as I thought it was nice and deserved extra business).

There is a bar near my office which will refuse you entry if you try to get in using an expired ID. I know a couple people who've been personally affected by this.

You might ask what these people are doing driving around with expired licenses anyway... well, the reality is, this is New York City, and there are many people who don't own a car and almost never get behind the wheel of one. As such, they don't need to be vigilant about keeping their license current since they're not risking getting in trouble by not doing so.

[Scott5114]

I used my NYS license to buy beer in Colorado once. It was the previous generation design, a soft, flimsy plastic almost like stiff card paper. That was what made the clerk suspicious, and while I offered him my passport as backup, he insisted on satisfying himself with the authenticity of my license.

That seems really dumb, since Kansas uses the exact same type of material!

[vdeane]

Meanwhile, in PA it seems to be permissible to allow only PA licenses as proof of I.D., since I've seen that requirement listed more than once. Mind you, not only does that exclude out-of-state licenses, but anything else that isn't a drivers license. I have been flatly refused service with my U.S. passport (which I rather resented, since I had purposely brought a bunch of friends with me to that place, as I thought it was nice and deserved extra business).

There is a bar near my office which will refuse you entry if you try to get in using an expired ID. I know a couple people who've been personally affected by this.

Is that even legal?  The expiration date refers to the ability to drive with the licence... not its use as ID.  As far as I know, non-driver ID cards typically don't expire at all.  It's not like you're gonna suddenly become 18 by letting your licence expire.

[empirestate]

I used my NYS license to buy beer in Colorado once. It was the previous generation design, a soft, flimsy plastic almost like stiff card paper. That was what made the clerk suspicious, and while I offered him my passport as backup, he insisted on satisfying himself with the authenticity of my license.

That seems really dumb, since Kansas uses the exact same type of material!

Well, being that this was way over in Grand Junction, I doubt he ran across Kansans any more often than New Yorkers.

I forgot to mention: as I recall, he had (or I've definitely seen it used by someone else) a guidebook showing samples of all the different state license and how to authenticate them. That's obviously a helpful idea, and I'm surprised I haven't seen it used in more places, particularly those that do cater to a tourist crowd. But I also think that in the businesses' view, as long as they duly check for IDs, they're covered, whereas the card holder bears full responsibility for presenting a fake document.

Meanwhile, in PA it seems to be permissible to allow only PA licenses as proof of I.D., since I've seen that requirement listed more than once. Mind you, not only does that exclude out-of-state licenses, but anything else that isn't a drivers license. I have been flatly refused service with my U.S. passport (which I rather resented, since I had purposely brought a bunch of friends with me to that place, as I thought it was nice and deserved extra business).

There is a bar near my office which will refuse you entry if you try to get in using an expired ID. I know a couple people who've been personally affected by this.

Is that even legal?  The expiration date refers to the ability to drive with the licence... not its use as ID.  As far as I know, non-driver ID cards typically don't expire at all.  It's not like you're gonna suddenly become 18 by letting your licence expire.

It's probably legal insofar as "valid identification" is required, the problem being not that you didn't provide the required information, but that you didn't provide it in the prescribed fashion. In the same way, they might refuse to accept a notarized affidavit from your mother confirming your birth date, because it isn't a recognized form of ID.

As for my PA examples, I'm fairly certain it has more to do with controlling the nature of their clientele than any legalities of ID documents. One of the places I've seen the PA-licenses-only rule was in Easton, on the NJ border, where you can fully imagine a lot of cross-border traffic of New Jerseyans wanting to exploit PA's take-out beer laws (drink your face off at the bar until 2am, then stumble home with 12 more bottles to go).

[agentsteel53]

what is the advantage of having a black-and-white portrait over a color one?

[djsinco]

I feel blessed by having been born in 1958. Too young for the draft, was able to go to bars at 15 (NJ had no photo on their DL in those days, and I was tall for my age.) Then, able to legally drink at 18, and the age was raised to 21 after I was over 21. The funny part is, now that I am old, I hardly ever drink. It makes me too tired.

[Mr_Northside]

There is a bar near my office which will refuse you entry if you try to get in using an expired ID. I know a couple people who've been personally affected by this.

Is that even legal?  The expiration date refers to the ability to drive with the licence... not its use as ID.  As far as I know, non-driver ID cards typically don't expire at all.  It's not like you're gonna suddenly become 18 by letting your licence expire.

I experienced this first-hand years ago.  It seems in PA, a license expiration date is the day after your birthday (in 4-year intervals).  I went out to Indiana (PA) to hang out with some friends for my birthday, and around 1:15am or so, went to get a 12-pack to take back to their apartment, and low-and-behold my ID had just expired at midnight.  He did sell me the beer eventually, but had to over-ride the ID-scanning machine.
I didn't realize it was going to expire.  I never got a renewal form, and it was my first license (got it at 18), so I wasn't used to the idea of them expiring, so it was a weird experience to be able to get into bars fine most of the evening, but almost get shut down then, despite actually being over 21.

[lordsutch]

My Virginia license was black and white, laser engraved, as are the photos on my passport card and NEXUS card.  I believe there is some research that suggests that people actually do a better job of recognizing whether a monochrome picture is of the person in front of them than a color one, assuming they look at it at all.  (I'd imagine in a color picture people are mostly looking at skin tone and hair color, with the latter being pretty much unreliable for 50% of the population, while in a monochrome picture you'd have to look more closely at facial structure.)

[Scott5114]

what is the advantage of having a black-and-white portrait over a color one?

The article doesn't directly explain this, since the author is apparently fixated on the photo being black-and-white and mentions it several times, and only obliquely explains why. There is no advantage to having a black-and-white portrait. The advantage is that the portrait is being laser-engraved into the license, so it ends up with a distinct look and feel that is presumably very much like an incuse version of intaglio printing from a dollar bill. A side effect of this process is that the portrait has to be in black and white.

Is that even legal?  The expiration date refers to the ability to drive with the licence... not its use as ID.  As far as I know, non-driver ID cards typically don't expire at all.  It's not like you're gonna suddenly become 18 by letting your licence expire.

The expiration date does also apply to its use as a form of ID. The card is no longer valid after the expiration date, and so most places will not allow you to use it as an ID. The reason for this is to force people to keep up to date with driver license upgrades, keep their address and photo current, and remove damaged IDs from circulation. This is to keep the person using the ID to verify its bearer's identity from having to squint at a photo that was taken 20 years prior and try to judge if it's the same person, or to read the information through the motor oil marks that someone's gotten all over it, or to try to determine if a chintzy laminated piece of cardstock issued in 1966 is counterfeit or not.

I work at a casino, and if we have a jackpot winner present expired ID, they have the option to be paid now with taxes taken out (to limit our liability because we cannot legally verify their identity) or to be paid the full amount when they can come back with valid ID. Most people choose the latter option. Per IRS regs, we do not accept forms of ID with no nominal expiration date. There are, somehow, a few Oklahoma IDs floating around out there with an expiration date of "Indefinite", though I don't know by what process someone is entitled to get such a thing. 

[agentsteel53]

There are, somehow, a few Oklahoma IDs floating around out there with an expiration date of "Indefinite", though I don't know by what process someone is entitled to get such a thing.

insert your own Alanland joke here.

a quick google search shows that there are military IDs with expiration of "indef", which are issued to retired officers over age 65, but nothing about Oklahoma state IDs.

http://www.oklahomafrontline.com/shared_stories/retiree-id-cards-now-have-expiration-dates/

closest I can find to mentioning Oklahoma.

[J N Winkler]

I suspect the nonexpiring Oklahoma state IDs Scott is talking about were issued under legislation that has since been repealed.

[empirestate]

what is the advantage of having a black-and-white portrait over a color one?

The article doesn't directly explain this, since the author is apparently fixated on the photo being black-and-white and mentions it several times, and only obliquely explains why. There is no advantage to having a black-and-white portrait. The advantage is that the portrait is being laser-engraved into the license, so it ends up with a distinct look and feel that is presumably very much like an incuse version of intaglio printing from a dollar bill. A side effect of this process is that the portrait has to be in black and white.

Actors' headshots were conventionally taken in B/W, and that persisted for many years after color film was widely available. For a while, the only color headshots you'd see were from those who used it as a way to stand out; finally, probably not more than 10 years ago or so, the full switch over to color finally occurred (except inside your playbill).

B/W was preferred, among other reasons, because it was more expressive and looked more like the subject. After all, if you don't look like your picture, you don't get the job!

The expiration date does also apply to its use as a form of ID. The card is no longer valid after the expiration date, and so most places will not allow you to use it as an ID.

Exactly; expiration date is used as a condition for the use of an ID; obviously, it doesn't change the veracity of the other information on it. So if you're asked to prove your name, age, etc., by using a current ID, then an expired one would not qualify. However, if you're asked to prove your name, age, etc., by no specified means, then an expired ID would still work. For example, you can use certain expired documents to get a NYS drivers license (albeit at a lower point value), because they still do prove what they're used to prove, like date of birth, which obviously doesn't change over time.

[SteveG1988]

I wonder, do border towns in PA refuse tobacco sales to 18 year old NJ residents? there are a few places that you can walk between the states without much hassle (trenton comes to mind) or take a train (Philly). Since the legal age to buy in NJ is 19, would not suprise me if delaware river area stores have an agreement or something to not sell.

[NJRoadfan]

I wonder, do border towns in PA refuse tobacco sales to 18 year old NJ residents? there are a few places that you can walk between the states without much hassle (trenton comes to mind) or take a train (Philly). Since the legal age to buy in NJ is 19, would not suprise me if delaware river area stores have an agreement or something to not sell.

There is no such agreement. PA stores are not bound to NJ law and certainly aren't going to turn away legal customers.

Back in the day, the best states for fake IDs were NJ and Maine. Both used to have easy to clone ID types. Heck, the fake ones used to look better then the real state issued cards! I think some states will issue ID to out of state folks for purchasing alcohol, MA was one of them.

http://www.massrmv.com/rmv/license/13liqID.htm

[Scott5114]

I have seen a Vermont drivers license bearing an Oklahoma mailing address. No idea how that works.

[cpzilliacus]

I have seen a Vermont drivers license bearing an Oklahoma mailing address. No idea how that works.

Active-duty military person maintaining Vermont official residency while serving at a post in Oklahoma?