Coronavirus pandemic

[Max Rockatansky]

  (5) Talk show hosts need to quit scolding Wyoming for not issuing a statewide stay-at-home order.  Seriously, they already flattened what little curve they ever had.

South Dakota, too, which still doesn't have a statewide order, despite a highly-publicized outbreak in Sioux Falls in the southeast corner of the state. But it does have a state order covering the two counties with about 90% of the state's cases. Meanwhile, the three counties in the northwestern corner of the state have no known cases at all. Many of the other counties in the western half of the state have no known cases or just one or two. One of the exceptions (Pennington County, including Rapid City and ) has only 11 cases (out of over 2000 statewide) and is considering relaxing its local restrictions.

I like the governor's resistance to the statewide order bandwagon, and her focus on where restrictions are most needed and a lighter (not no) touch where they aren't needed so far.

I wish there was similar measures here in California as I was trying to highlight with the differences between the urban counties versus rural. One size fits all doesn't exactly apply when you're talking about states like Wyoming or somewhere as far flung as say Sierra County. 

Interestingly here in California one of the largest rural outbreaks was in Mono County at Mammoth.  The outbreak was caused by non-locals from the Los Angeles Area trying to hunker down at second homes and ski resorts.  As if Mono County needed another reason to despise the Los Angeles Basin after the L.A. Aqueduct.   One of the reasons Mariposa County doesn't have any cases out in the western Sierras was local pressure to close Yosemite which kept tourists away.

Dang I had no Idea there was the Mammoth lakes outbreak though. This has to be one of many unreported cases out there of COVID-19 cases.

It's just that in NorCal all of the attention has been directed at Solano County, CA extending their Shelter in Place orders until May 17th.

https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2020/04/24/solano-county-stay-home-order/
Also the City of San Francisco is considering extending their Shelter in Place orders.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article242129761.html
If you are wondering why some counties in California are either already extending shelter in place or debating Shelter in place orders. Yes the recent protests in Downtown Sacramento demanding California to reopen is one factor here and the spike rumors have been at play here

Interestingly Fresno County doesn't have a specific order but is advising following state directs.  Even stranger the City of Fresno has one and the mayor has even issued threats regarding fines in addition to possible jail time.  The City is also claiming (as of a couple days ago) that nobody has been fined:

https://news.yahoo.com/heres-stay-home-orders-expiring-195815567.html

https://www.co.fresno.ca.us/departments/public-health/covid-19

The Mammoth outbreak was pretty early on and led to a closure of CA 203.  Apparently the confirmed cases is at 24 for Mono County at the moment.  I suspect that figure doesn't count residents from other counties that were confirmed but had primary residences elsewhere. 

Right now the counties in California with 0 confirmed cases are:

Mariposa
Lassen
Modoc
Trinity
Sierra

Los Angeles County presently accounts for almost half of approximately 39,000 confirmed COVID-19 cases in California at the moment and slightly more than half of the almost 1,600 fatalities. 

Referencing Solano County, apparently they are a tick just below 200 cases.  The term "swell"  tends to be misleading IMO if you go from say 200 cases in one day to 230.   That gets thrown around a lot by the Fresno Bee and it's kind of absurd when comparing to what is going on in Los Angeles County. 

[TheGrassGuy]

When do you guys think that the stay at home order will end?

I'll place my bets on mid-July for NJ. Kinda surprised at how Gov. Murphy's been instilling false hope by moving the school reopening date to mid-May instead of just (in the footsteps of 43 other states, mind you) outright shutting them till the fall altogether.

[wanderer2575]

Seen on humorist Dave Barry's blog:

Family Puts Up "˜Jurisdiction Of The Ministry Of Silly Walks' Sign In Front Of Their House, Films 30 Silly Walks By Passersby
https://www.boredpanda.com/yorkshire-silly-walks/?utm_source=mail.google&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=organic

Stuff like this give me a glimmer of hope for the future of humanity.

[ozarkman417]

When do you guys think that the stay at home order will end?

Missouri is going to start loosening restrictions May 4, though local laws override this.

[1995hoo]

When do you guys think that the stay at home order will end?

At a million different times, depending on where you are.  States, counties, cities, and even companies will all do it differently.

Arkansas never has, but our governor will allow dental procedures starting May 18. 

Here in Virginia, emergency dental procedures are allowed. My wife went for a root canal this week.

[US 89]

Utah still has five counties without a single reported case: Beaver, Daggett, Piute, Rich, and Wayne. Unsurprisingly, those are five of the six least populous counties of the state, and with the exception of Beaver, all have less than 3000 people.

[hotdogPi]

It's a month old, but it's still funny:

There's a "Corona Antivirus" that you can install that will supposedly protect you from COVID-19. Unsurprisingly, it's a virus.

[kalvado]

When do you guys think that the stay at home order will end?

At a million different times, depending on where you are.  States, counties, cities, and even companies will all do it differently.

Arkansas never has, but our governor will allow dental procedures starting May 18. 

Here in Virginia, emergency dental procedures are allowed. My wife went for a root canal this week.

If emergency root canal would not be allowed, I suspect government would be overturned within a week.

[kphoger]

As for the act of banning religious gatherings...  My father (who is a retired pastor) put it this way:

At a time when people are facing fear, sickness, and death, you're going to keep them away from church?  Can you imagine what our founding fathers would have to say about that?  When do people need church more than when they're facing fear, sickness, and death?

As someone who is religious, but does not attend church: you just to lean into your faith a bit. If you're actually facing sickness, and death, you definitely should not be near other people. That will cause further sickness and death. If your fear is strong, that's totally understandable, but why not simply call your pastor or bishop? Or even hold a Zoom conference. Churches near me have been ordered shut by the State of Washington, but have largely moved to electronic sermons. Maybe we can't touch and hold each other, but for the sake of everyone else (religious or not), that's probably a good thing.

I'd argue that religion is only partly defined by one's personal faith and belief system, but is also–perhaps moreso–defined by one's corporate acts of worship.  It's pretty hard to imagine, for example, the Roman Catholic religion without mass, the taking of Communion, confession and absolution, etc, etc.  Hymns were meant to be sung corporately, the Bible was written to be read publicly, the distribution of the bread and wine at Communion either (depending on your denomination) symbolizes or even carries on Jesus' giving of himself for his followers, and so on and so forth.

I'm reminded of back when my wife and I had a housemate from Saudi Arabia, a student at WSU.  One day in conversation, religious intolerance in that nation came up.  He stated that there is freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia, because religion is about what you personally believe in your heart, and the Saudi government can't stop you believing in your heart whatever you want.  That's ridiculous!  Religion is so much more than that.  It's actions.  It's practice.  It's traditions.  It's sights and sounds and smells and even peculiar vocabulary.  Take all the "extra" stuff away, and what you're left with is not religion.

Calling someone on the phone or seeing them on a screen is just not the same.  A human being with another human being is what it takes to make a real human connection.  Imagine if my wife died suddenly, and I were left to raise three sons without her.  I'd be livid if having a funeral were against the law–not allowed to cry with our brothers and sisters from church;  not allowed to sing songs of sorrow and comfort and joy with others who have lost loved ones;  not allowed to have our pastor and best friends lay their hands on my back and pray for me;  not allowed to have a potluck dinner of dishes prepared by the same ladies my wife cooked for when they were home with newborns or laid up from a recent hospital stay;  not allowed to look right into people's eyes and find no words to fill the silence;  not allowed to begin moving on with life by getting out of the house and having real conversations with other people...

This is literally what people are being deprived of.  My parents just received a dis-invitation to a wedding.  That couple will not get to celebrate what is perhaps the happiest day of their life in church.  No walking down the aisle past family and friends, no bridesmaids looking uncomfortable in their dresses, no lighting of the unity candle, no grinning at the ring bearer grabbing his crotch for the whole congregation to see, no cheering when they kiss, no pastor exhorting the whole congregation to support their marriage, no receiving line full of people to offer sage advice, no big family pictures out on the lawn, no dance, no reception, no rice thrown on their heads as they make their way to the car in the parking lot, none of that.  What they will have lost is a lot more than just a few Sundays in the pew, but a whole day of memories that might have been.

For what it's worth, tomorrow will be my family's seventh week in a row without going to church and without having our weekly "small group" meeting.  Our pastor records a sermon on Thursday afternoons, they air online Sunday mornings, and our family–along with most others from the church–watches them at home.  I usually pick out a couple of songs to play on the guitar and a Bible passage to read, and one of us prays out loud.  But that's just not the same thing.  This morning was the first time we musicians have gotten together at church since mid-March.  We did sound check, camera setup, and all that good stuff in preparation for recording two songs per week to go along with the online sermons.  While it felt great to see my friends again and to play songs of the faith again, it simply isn't the same when there's no one out in the congregation to sing along.  It felt more like making a music video than it did a worship experience, and I'm afraid that will be the case on recording day too.  And I'm also afraid that, for those at home, it will feel more like watching a music video than it will a worship experience.

I realize that this thread isn't supposed to be about religion, but I think it's simply illustrative of what gets taken away from us by mandatory self-isolation.  We lose each other.  What helps keep life moving along is to sit on your friends' couch and talk about work, joke about how your kids drive you nuts, self-diagnose your cars' latest mechanical issues, make fun of whatever political party is on the other side of the fence from you, eat sloppy joes and ice cream, and watch the game.  What keeps us sane is to roll our eyes at other people's kids, chuckle at wondering how that woman managed to squeeze into that dress, bite your tongue when your friend is being controlling with his wife and then mention it to your own wife later that day, and feel old when the college freshmen in front of you in line at Wendy's all have their noses buried in their smartphones.

We're sacrificing life in the name of staying alive.  And I'm about done with it.

[kphoger]

When do you guys think that the stay at home order will end?

At a million different times, depending on where you are.  States, counties, cities, and even companies will all do it differently.

Arkansas never has, but our governor will allow dental procedures starting May 18. 

Heh.  When I first read that, it looked like you were saying Arkansas has never allowed dental procedures.

Actually, come to think of it, that sounds like the beginning of a pretty good joke....

[oscar]

Imagine if my wife died suddenly, and I were left to raise three sons without her.  I'd be livid if having a funeral were against the law–not allowed to cry with our brothers and sisters from church;  not allowed to sing songs of sorrow and comfort and joy with others who have lost loved ones;  not allowed to have our pastor and best friends lay their hands on my back and pray for me;  not allowed to have a potluck dinner of dishes prepared by the same ladies my wife cooked for when they were home with newborns or laid up from a recent hospital stay;  not allowed to look right into people's eyes and find no words to fill the silence;  not allowed to begin moving on with life by getting out of the house and having real conversations with other people...

Fair points. But it can be worse. In Milan and other parts of northern Italy, where some of my relatives are trying to outlast the pandemic, the only attendees at funerals are a priest and the undertaker. Not even immediate family can attend.

[1995hoo]

When do you guys think that the stay at home order will end?

At a million different times, depending on where you are.  States, counties, cities, and even companies will all do it differently.

Arkansas never has, but our governor will allow dental procedures starting May 18. 

Heh.  When I first read that, it looked like you were saying Arkansas has never allowed dental procedures.

Actually, come to think of it, that sounds like the beginning of a pretty good joke....

That's how you know the toothbrush was invented in West Virginia: Anybody else would have called it a "teethbrush."




(I've typed that smiley often enough that my autocorrect now suggests "bigass"!")

[webny99]

Wow...  I've been away for a few weeks, and this thread has 30+ pages of unread posts.  I got through a couple, then gave up.

It certainly seems to be growing at a rate of at least a page a day. It's lost any semblance of control, and I feel like many of the posts I've made here have gotten completely and utterly lost in the shuffle.

As for the act of banning religious gatherings...  My father (who is a retired pastor) put it this way:
At a time when people are facing fear, sickness, and death, you're going to keep them away from church?  Can you imagine what our founding fathers would have to say about that?  When do people need church more than when they're facing fear, sickness, and death?

We're sacrificing life in the name of staying alive.  And I'm about done with it.

I guess I don't take the "in person" stuff that you've mentioned in this post and others quite as hard. Partly because I'm an introvert, partly because I'm not exactly lacking company in my current circumstances, and partly because, as others have already mentioned, church services can be held online, just like (almost) anything else these days.

As far as what you say as to church being needed now more than ever, that's something that I personally agree with, and I think it's clear, or at least should be, that what's happening now is part of the progression outlined in the Book of Revelation. I think this a really interesting topic, but given the forum guidelines, is probably something that should be taken to PM if we want to discuss in detail.

[Max Rockatansky]

Imagine if my wife died suddenly, and I were left to raise three sons without her.  I'd be livid if having a funeral were against the law–not allowed to cry with our brothers and sisters from church;  not allowed to sing songs of sorrow and comfort and joy with others who have lost loved ones;  not allowed to have our pastor and best friends lay their hands on my back and pray for me;  not allowed to have a potluck dinner of dishes prepared by the same ladies my wife cooked for when they were home with newborns or laid up from a recent hospital stay;  not allowed to look right into people's eyes and find no words to fill the silence;  not allowed to begin moving on with life by getting out of the house and having real conversations with other people...

Fair points. But it can be worse. In Milan and other parts of northern Italy, where some of my relatives are trying to outlast the pandemic, the only attendees at funerals are a priest and the undertaker. Not even immediate family can attend.

Italy has been a cesspool or awfulness pretty much through the entire outbreak there.  Most of the people drawing comparisons to the Great Plague of London usually have brought up Italy. 

[Roadgeekteen]

As for the act of banning religious gatherings...  My father (who is a retired pastor) put it this way:

At a time when people are facing fear, sickness, and death, you're going to keep them away from church?  Can you imagine what our founding fathers would have to say about that?  When do people need church more than when they're facing fear, sickness, and death?

As someone who is religious, but does not attend church: you just to lean into your faith a bit. If you're actually facing sickness, and death, you definitely should not be near other people. That will cause further sickness and death. If your fear is strong, that's totally understandable, but why not simply call your pastor or bishop? Or even hold a Zoom conference. Churches near me have been ordered shut by the State of Washington, but have largely moved to electronic sermons. Maybe we can't touch and hold each other, but for the sake of everyone else (religious or not), that's probably a good thing.

I'd argue that religion is only partly defined by one's personal faith and belief system, but is also–perhaps moreso–defined by one's corporate acts of worship.  It's pretty hard to imagine, for example, the Roman Catholic religion without mass, the taking of Communion, confession and absolution, etc, etc.  Hymns were meant to be sung corporately, the Bible was written to be read publicly, the distribution of the bread and wine at Communion either (depending on your denomination) symbolizes or even carries on Jesus' giving of himself for his followers, and so on and so forth.

I'm reminded of back when my wife and I had a housemate from Saudi Arabia, a student at WSU.  One day in conversation, religious intolerance in that nation came up.  He stated that there is freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia, because religion is about what you personally believe in your heart, and the Saudi government can't stop you believing in your heart whatever you want.  That's ridiculous!  Religion is so much more than that.  It's actions.  It's practice.  It's traditions.  It's sights and sounds and smells and even peculiar vocabulary.  Take all the "extra" stuff away, and what you're left with is not religion.

Calling someone on the phone or seeing them on a screen is just not the same.  A human being with another human being is what it takes to make a real human connection.  Imagine if my wife died suddenly, and I were left to raise three sons without her.  I'd be livid if having a funeral were against the law–not allowed to cry with our brothers and sisters from church;  not allowed to sing songs of sorrow and comfort and joy with others who have lost loved ones;  not allowed to have our pastor and best friends lay their hands on my back and pray for me;  not allowed to have a potluck dinner of dishes prepared by the same ladies my wife cooked for when they were home with newborns or laid up from a recent hospital stay;  not allowed to look right into people's eyes and find no words to fill the silence;  not allowed to begin moving on with life by getting out of the house and having real conversations with other people...

This is literally what people are being deprived of.  My parents just received a dis-invitation to a wedding.  That couple will not get to celebrate what is perhaps the happiest day of their life in church.  No walking down the aisle past family and friends, no bridesmaids looking uncomfortable in their dresses, no lighting of the unity candle, no grinning at the ring bearer grabbing his crotch for the whole congregation to see, no cheering when they kiss, no pastor exhorting the whole congregation to support their marriage, no receiving line full of people to offer sage advice, no big family pictures out on the lawn, no dance, no reception, no rice thrown on their heads as they make their way to the car in the parking lot, none of that.  What they will have lost is a lot more than just a few Sundays in the pew, but a whole day of memories that might have been.

For what it's worth, tomorrow will be my family's seventh week in a row without going to church and without having our weekly "small group" meeting.  Our pastor records a sermon on Thursday afternoons, they air online Sunday mornings, and our family–along with most others from the church–watches them at home.  I usually pick out a couple of songs to play on the guitar and a Bible passage to read, and one of us prays out loud.  But that's just not the same thing.  This morning was the first time we musicians have gotten together at church since mid-March.  We did sound check, camera setup, and all that good stuff in preparation for recording two songs per week to go along with the online sermons.  While it felt great to see my friends again and to play songs of the faith again, it simply isn't the same when there's no one out in the congregation to sing along.  It felt more like making a music video than it did a worship experience, and I'm afraid that will be the case on recording day too.  And I'm also afraid that, for those at home, it will feel more like watching a music video than it will a worship experience.

I realize that this thread isn't supposed to be about religion, but I think it's simply illustrative of what gets taken away from us by mandatory self-isolation.  We lose each other.  What helps keep life moving along is to sit on your friends' couch and talk about work, joke about how your kids drive you nuts, self-diagnose your cars' latest mechanical issues, make fun of whatever political party is on the other side of the fence from you, eat sloppy joes and ice cream, and watch the game.  What keeps us sane is to roll our eyes at other people's kids, chuckle at wondering how that woman managed to squeeze into that dress, bite your tongue when your friend is being controlling with his wife and then mention it to your own wife later that day, and feel old when the college freshmen in front of you in line at Wendy's all have their noses buried in their smartphones.

We're sacrificing life in the name of staying alive.  And I'm about done with it.

It's a really tough situation, I will admit. My church is going online too, and it's kinda not the same. Hopefully we can see other humans in person again.

[Max Rockatansky]

To hit on a certain point kphoger made:

"We're sacrificing life in the name of staying alive.  And I'm about done with it."

I guess that's what frustrates me and at times makes me angry about the current situation at hand.  I've seen scenarios play out in my immediate life where people have thought that they have "all the time in the world" to wait around for things to get better...sadly it did not turn out to be the case for many.  Truth is that none of really have any notion of when our time is up and in the manner said life will end.  To that end, the longer things like "shelter in place," "stay at home," "quarantine," or whatever you want to call goes on the less worthwhile life is becoming. 

I for one am not okay with living just to exist, and especially existing for no real purpose.  What frustrates me is that there are many out there in the world who seem that think stuff like staying at home like we are now is "normal" or "acceptable" when it comes with no clearly definition on when those restrictions will let up.  It leaves me questioning if things will get better any time soon?...and what will be missed because of it?

I got lucky, my wedding was last year.  I couldn't fathom having that day ruined because some governor told me that that I needed to stay at home because I might be spreading a virus that probably has a less than 1% chance of killing those it infects.  I look back at my parents and see what they had to struggle through at the ends of their lives with disease after doctors told them that "staying home" and "sticking to the plan" was the best course of action.  I can't imagine that either of them if they were alive today would look at the situation at hand and agree that staying home for an undefined amount of time was the right way to live.  The spart that angers me most is that people who follow the rules proscribed by whatever local health board end up being vilified by "the community" for making reasonable arguments for why things should begin to loose up (that's not an implication that some more "notable" actions and/or statements people have made are reasonable).

That said, part of my job is as a safety manager (which I find ironic).  To that end, I do understand the need for the restrictions that ended up happened.  I do understand uncertainty scares peoples, it causes things like panic and a break down of rational actions.  I do understand the need to not suddenly just "lift restrictions," but I can't sit back and say what is going on now is "life" or acceptable in the long term.  Hopefully things start loosening up soon or at least some measure of actual assurance starts to get out there.  Right now, I see a lot of hopelessness that is only going to get worse the longer things go on.  I can't help but wonder if in the end will more damage will be done by restrictions taking the potential joys of life away from so many...I guess we'll all find out sooner or later.

[bandit957]

To hit on a certain point kphoger made:

"We're sacrificing life in the name of staying alive.  And I'm about done with it."

I guess that's what frustrates me and at times makes me angry about the current situation at hand.  I've seen scenarios play out in my immediate life where people have thought that they have "all the time in the world" to wait around for things to get better...sadly it did not turn out to be the case for many.  Truth is that none of really have any notion of when our time is up and in the manner said life will end.  To that end, the longer things like "shelter in place," "stay at home," "quarantine," or whatever you want to call goes on the less worthwhile life is becoming. 

I for one am not okay with living just to exist, and especially existing for no real purpose.  What frustrates me is that there are many out there in the world who seem that think stuff like staying at home like we are now is "normal" or "acceptable" when it comes with no clearly definition on when those restrictions will let up.  It leaves me questioning if things will get better any time soon?...and what will be missed because of it?

I got lucky, my wedding was last year.  I couldn't fathom having that day ruined because some governor told me that that I needed to stay at home because I might be spreading a virus that probably has a less than 1% chance of killing those it infects.  I look back at my parents and see what they had to struggle through at the ends of their lives with disease after doctors told them that "staying home" and "sticking to the plan" was the best course of action.  I can't imagine that either of them if they were alive today would look at the situation at hand and agree that staying home for an undefined amount of time was the right way to live.  The spart that angers me most is that people who follow the rules proscribed by whatever local health board end up being vilified by "the community" for making reasonable arguments for why things should begin to loose up (that's not an implication that some more "notable" actions and/or statements people have made are reasonable).

That said, part of my job is as a safety manager (which I find ironic).  To that end, I do understand the need for the restrictions that ended up happened.  I do understand uncertainty scares peoples, it causes things like panic and a break down of rational actions.  I do understand the need to not suddenly just "lift restrictions," but I can't sit back and say what is going on now is "life" or acceptable in the long term.  Hopefully things start loosening up soon or at least some measure of actual assurance starts to get out there.  Right now, I see a lot of hopelessness that is only going to get worse the longer things go on.  I can't help but wonder if in the end will more damage will be done by restrictions taking the potential joys of life away from so many...I guess we'll all find out sooner or later.

And all we have to show for the lockdowns is more and more deaths. The lockdowns were sold to us as a cure-all, and that turned out to be bogus.

[Max Rockatansky]

To hit on a certain point kphoger made:

"We're sacrificing life in the name of staying alive.  And I'm about done with it."

I guess that's what frustrates me and at times makes me angry about the current situation at hand.  I've seen scenarios play out in my immediate life where people have thought that they have "all the time in the world" to wait around for things to get better...sadly it did not turn out to be the case for many.  Truth is that none of really have any notion of when our time is up and in the manner said life will end.  To that end, the longer things like "shelter in place," "stay at home," "quarantine," or whatever you want to call goes on the less worthwhile life is becoming. 

I for one am not okay with living just to exist, and especially existing for no real purpose.  What frustrates me is that there are many out there in the world who seem that think stuff like staying at home like we are now is "normal" or "acceptable" when it comes with no clearly definition on when those restrictions will let up.  It leaves me questioning if things will get better any time soon?...and what will be missed because of it?

I got lucky, my wedding was last year.  I couldn't fathom having that day ruined because some governor told me that that I needed to stay at home because I might be spreading a virus that probably has a less than 1% chance of killing those it infects.  I look back at my parents and see what they had to struggle through at the ends of their lives with disease after doctors told them that "staying home" and "sticking to the plan" was the best course of action.  I can't imagine that either of them if they were alive today would look at the situation at hand and agree that staying home for an undefined amount of time was the right way to live.  The spart that angers me most is that people who follow the rules proscribed by whatever local health board end up being vilified by "the community" for making reasonable arguments for why things should begin to loose up (that's not an implication that some more "notable" actions and/or statements people have made are reasonable).

That said, part of my job is as a safety manager (which I find ironic).  To that end, I do understand the need for the restrictions that ended up happened.  I do understand uncertainty scares peoples, it causes things like panic and a break down of rational actions.  I do understand the need to not suddenly just "lift restrictions," but I can't sit back and say what is going on now is "life" or acceptable in the long term.  Hopefully things start loosening up soon or at least some measure of actual assurance starts to get out there.  Right now, I see a lot of hopelessness that is only going to get worse the longer things go on.  I can't help but wonder if in the end will more damage will be done by restrictions taking the potential joys of life away from so many...I guess we'll all find out sooner or later.

And all we have to show for the lockdowns is more and more deaths. The lockdowns were sold to us as a cure-all, and that turned out to be bogus.

For what it's worth I don't think many public officials have sold it that way.  They way I've always seen it stated the goal was/is to not have the hospitals overwhelmed with sick.  It's mostly regular people who seem to think that all these measures had the goal of outright stopping the illness and death.  Yeah, isolation probably saved some given the hospitals haven't been overwhelmed.  But if things don't start open up the isolation will have start to have economic effects that will damage lives that can't be undone...for some that's already happened. 

[Roadgeekteen]

To hit on a certain point kphoger made:

"We're sacrificing life in the name of staying alive.  And I'm about done with it."

I guess that's what frustrates me and at times makes me angry about the current situation at hand.  I've seen scenarios play out in my immediate life where people have thought that they have "all the time in the world" to wait around for things to get better...sadly it did not turn out to be the case for many.  Truth is that none of really have any notion of when our time is up and in the manner said life will end.  To that end, the longer things like "shelter in place," "stay at home," "quarantine," or whatever you want to call goes on the less worthwhile life is becoming. 

I for one am not okay with living just to exist, and especially existing for no real purpose.  What frustrates me is that there are many out there in the world who seem that think stuff like staying at home like we are now is "normal" or "acceptable" when it comes with no clearly definition on when those restrictions will let up.  It leaves me questioning if things will get better any time soon?...and what will be missed because of it?

I got lucky, my wedding was last year.  I couldn't fathom having that day ruined because some governor told me that that I needed to stay at home because I might be spreading a virus that probably has a less than 1% chance of killing those it infects.  I look back at my parents and see what they had to struggle through at the ends of their lives with disease after doctors told them that "staying home" and "sticking to the plan" was the best course of action.  I can't imagine that either of them if they were alive today would look at the situation at hand and agree that staying home for an undefined amount of time was the right way to live.  The spart that angers me most is that people who follow the rules proscribed by whatever local health board end up being vilified by "the community" for making reasonable arguments for why things should begin to loose up (that's not an implication that some more "notable" actions and/or statements people have made are reasonable).

That said, part of my job is as a safety manager (which I find ironic).  To that end, I do understand the need for the restrictions that ended up happened.  I do understand uncertainty scares peoples, it causes things like panic and a break down of rational actions.  I do understand the need to not suddenly just "lift restrictions," but I can't sit back and say what is going on now is "life" or acceptable in the long term.  Hopefully things start loosening up soon or at least some measure of actual assurance starts to get out there.  Right now, I see a lot of hopelessness that is only going to get worse the longer things go on.  I can't help but wonder if in the end will more damage will be done by restrictions taking the potential joys of life away from so many...I guess we'll all find out sooner or later.

And all we have to show for the lockdowns is more and more deaths. The lockdowns were sold to us as a cure-all, and that turned out to be bogus.

It's to flatten the curve, not eradicate the virus. We'll have to wait for a vaccine for the later.

[bandit957]

It's to flatten the curve, not eradicate the virus. We'll have to wait for a vaccine for the later.

The curve never got very flat. I'm sure actual cases are declining now, but the curve was very steep.

[vdeane]

As far as what you say as to church being needed now more than ever, that's something that I personally agree with, and I think it's clear, or at least should be, that what's happening now is part of the progression outlined in the Book of Revelation. I think this a really interesting topic, but given the forum guidelines, is probably something that should be taken to PM if we want to discuss in detail.

Yeah, it's freaky.  There are even locusts in East Africa right now.  It's made me do a lot of self-reflection on my religious/political beliefs and wonder what's next.

For what it's worth I don't think many public officials have sold it that way.  They way I've always seen it stated the goal was/is to not have the hospitals overwhelmed with sick.  It's mostly regular people who seem to think that all these measures had the goal of outright stopping the illness and death.  Yeah, isolation probably saved some given the hospitals haven't been overwhelmed.  But if things don't start open up the isolation will have start to have economic effects that will damage lives that can't be undone...for some that's already happened. 

There seem to be many people that think strictly in a binary - "either X can happen, or it can't", and they seem to have a hard time when it's not possible to stop all X but people propose policies to reduce it.

[Bruce]

Or even hold a Zoom conference.

Or, for the less tech-savvy, a drive-in service with the church using a low-power radio transmitter so churchgoers can listen on their car radios. Drive-in services have been hassled by some local authorities, but hopefully the Attorney General's forceful intervention in those cases will stop that nonsense.

Not a complete substitute for services with hugs and other personal contact (like what I'm accustomed to), but it will help the church keep its members alive until this all blows over.

Several churches in Western Washington have moved to drive-in sermons and it's had little opposition. But there's churches in Eastern Washington where reckless indoor sermons are being held and have to be broken up (but the county sheriffs are not complying).

I should note that a single church choir practice in Mount Vernon, WA resulted in a superspreader event that killed 2 people and infected 45 others (or more). The community at large does not need superspreader events.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Hawaii is effectively deporting visitors who violate quarantine and can't afford a ticket out.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox40.com/news/national-and-world-news/the-hawaii-tourism-authority-is-now-paying-for-visitors-to-leave/amp/

[Scott5114]

If the quarantine makes you feel like life is not worth living, that means you are not making use of the time properly.

I've been pretty fortunate to be able to nominally retain my job, but stay home and still get paid regularly, so I don't have to stress about money. That's not a luxury everyone has. But since I'm at home, I've been having 36 extra hours a week to spend on my priorities instead of the priorities of some tie-wearing dipshit. Even though I can't go out to restaurants or hang out with friends in person, I've actually gotten to socialize with them more through using technology like Discord group chats, since we don't have to work around each others' work schedules now.

I learned how to install light fixtures on my house. I set up the pool for the summer. I've been catching up on things with my small business that I let slip for lack of time and energy. I've been less stressed so I'm not getting on my wife's nerves as often.

If instead of treating it like you're in jail, you treat it as you getting a break from the daily grind of life, it's really not so bad. I've been happier over the last couple of months than I have been in years.

[oscar]

Hawaii is effectively deporting visitors who violate quarantine and can't afford a ticket out.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox40.com/news/national-and-world-news/the-hawaii-tourism-authority-is-now-paying-for-visitors-to-leave/amp/

Yeah, I wonder how many of those people who bought cheap air tickets, expecting a nice "corona vacation", knew before they left the mainland that they were in for fourteen days stuck indoors as soon as they arrived (and even after they emerged from quarantine, getting the "stink eye" and even slashed tires from the locals). Not that I have much sympathy for them, but I wonder how well the quarantine policy was publicized, before these stories started coming out.

Hawaii normally gets a lot of tourist traffic from Japan and elsewhere in Asia, so it's not just the mainland U.S. that it's worried about. It still is a bit unexpected that Hawaii, which basically makes its living off high levels of "non-essential travel", would so drastically cut off the tourism trade.