New York State Thruway

[Rothman]

A further argument for Thruway widening between Exit 21A and 23 became apparent this weekend... as reliable redundancy to free I-90. When the southbound lane drop at Exit 23 starts to back up as it does during busy travel periods, this causes through travelers on I-90 or I-87 SB headed for I-90 EB to opt for free I-90 instead of the Thruway to avoid the congestion. In turn, all that traffic is forced on to the single lane loop ramp from the end of free I-90 back onto to the Berkshire Spur, and that starts to back up because it was not built to handle all the through traffic. As it happened this past Sunday, the backup on free I-90 ended up being worse than the backup at Exit 23, despite being entirely caused by the latter backup. A Thruway widening down to the Berkshire Spur would eliminate both issues and encourage traffic to stay on the Thruway to prevent the loop on I-90 EB from ever becoming an issue (outside of a major incident on the Thruway).

Pfft.  Usually, the "backup" is just due to a semi going around the ramp and then up the grade.  I commuted that route weekly for over a year and then still make frequent trips out yonder.  It really isn't a big deal.

There's no need to widen 21A to 23.

[webny99]

Pfft.  Usually, the "backup" is just due to a semi going around the ramp and then up the grade.  I commuted that route weekly for over a year and then still make frequent trips out yonder.  It really isn't a big deal.

There's no need to widen 21A to 23.

Key word "commuted" throws out that argument. It's not needed for commutes, or during typical commuter hours except for Thursday/Friday afternoons. It's needed for weekend and holiday travel... Friday thru Sunday specifically, plus during summer travel season. During peak travel periods the backups at the lane drop are more persistent than what would be caused by a single truck or group of trucks. But even setting that aside... it's warranted based on overall volumes sustained above 50k in the summer months and the fact that 21A is a way more logical location for a lane drop.


Edited to add: Below is a relevant analysis that I ran last year using 2022 Thruway traffic data:

I wish I could find it now, but there was a discussion a while back about a potential Thruway widening from Exit 21A to 23 and there was some debate as to whether it was busier than Exit 23-24 and whether Exit 23 was an appropriate location for a lane drop. So I ran a detailed comparison of 23-24 (which was widened a few years ago) to 22-23 (which is still four lanes). Results were interesting, shown below.

Day	ADT 22-23	ADT 23-24	Difference
Sun	52475	46253	22-23 +6223
Mon	47963	47846	22-23 +116
Tues	44559	46374	23-24 (-1815)
Wed	45539	47202	23-24 (-1663)
Thurs	50550	50862	23-24 (-312)
Fri	58119	55782	22-23 +2337
Sat	46273	42125	22-23 +4148
TOTAL	49561	48224	22-23 +1337

It's clear that 23-24 has more commuter traffic, while 22-23 has more long-distance/weekend traffic between Albany and NYC. The two counteract to some degree, resulting in 23-24 generally being busier on weekdays and 22-23 being busier Fri-Sun and slightly busier overall. Either way, there's a pretty strong case that 23 is not an ideal location for a SB lane drop (especially Sat-Sun) and that 21A-23 should also be widened.

[kalvado]

A further argument for Thruway widening between Exit 21A and 23 became apparent this weekend... as reliable redundancy to free I-90. When the southbound lane drop at Exit 23 starts to back up as it does during busy travel periods, this causes through travelers on I-90 or I-87 SB headed for I-90 EB to opt for free I-90 instead of the Thruway to avoid the congestion. In turn, all that traffic is forced on to the single lane loop ramp from the end of free I-90 back onto to the Berkshire Spur, and that starts to back up because it was not built to handle all the through traffic. As it happened this past Sunday, the backup on free I-90 ended up being worse than the backup at Exit 23, despite being entirely caused by the latter backup. A Thruway widening down to the Berkshire Spur would eliminate both issues and encourage traffic to stay on the Thruway to prevent the loop on I-90 EB from ever becoming an issue (outside of a major incident on the Thruway).

And honestly speaking, either you have enough capacity to funnel that traffic all the way to NYC approaches, or you're just moving the bottleneck...

[Rothman]

Pfft.  Usually, the "backup" is just due to a semi going around the ramp and then up the grade.  I commuted that route weekly for over a year and then still make frequent trips out yonder.  It really isn't a big deal.

There's no need to widen 21A to 23.

Key word "commuted" throws out that argument. It's not needed for commutes, or during typical commuter hours except for Thursday/Friday afternoons.

Your inability to read throws out yours.

[kalvado]

Pfft.  Usually, the "backup" is just due to a semi going around the ramp and then up the grade.  I commuted that route weekly for over a year and then still make frequent trips out yonder.  It really isn't a big deal.

There's no need to widen 21A to 23.

Key word "commuted" throws out that argument. It's not needed for commutes, or during typical commuter hours except for Thursday/Friday afternoons. It's needed for weekend and holiday travel... Friday thru Sunday specifically, plus during summer travel season. During peak travel periods the backups at the lane drop are more persistent than what would be caused by a single truck or group of trucks. But even setting that aside... it's warranted based on overall volumes sustained above 50k in the summer months and the fact that 21A is a way more logical location for a lane drop.


Edited to add: Below is a relevant analysis that I ran last year using 2022 Thruway traffic data:

I wish I could find it now, but there was a discussion a while back about a potential Thruway widening from Exit 21A to 23 and there was some debate as to whether it was busier than Exit 23-24 and whether Exit 23 was an appropriate location for a lane drop. So I ran a detailed comparison of 23-24 (which was widened a few years ago) to 22-23 (which is still four lanes). Results were interesting, shown below.

Day	ADT 22-23	ADT 23-24	Difference
Sun	52475	46253	22-23 +6223
Mon	47963	47846	22-23 +116
Tues	44559	46374	23-24 (-1815)
Wed	45539	47202	23-24 (-1663)
Thurs	50550	50862	23-24 (-312)
Fri	58119	55782	22-23 +2337
Sat	46273	42125	22-23 +4148
TOTAL	49561	48224	22-23 +1337

It's clear that 23-24 has more commuter traffic, while 22-23 has more long-distance/weekend traffic between Albany and NYC. The two counteract to some degree, resulting in 23-24 generally being busier on weekdays and 22-23 being busier Fri-Sun and slightly busier overall. Either way, there's a pretty strong case that 23 is not an ideal location for a SB lane drop (especially Sat-Sun) and that 21A-23 should also be widened.

Not sure if it was discussed before - but what is the deal with weekend traffic? Does it continue to/from NYC with some drop into Catskills, or part of it is Boston/hudson valley bound?
If traffic is from/to NYC, you would still have a lane drop somewhere as making a 3-lane run all the way down will be pricey.... 

[MASTERNC]

Pfft.  Usually, the "backup" is just due to a semi going around the ramp and then up the grade.  I commuted that route weekly for over a year and then still make frequent trips out yonder.  It really isn't a big deal.

There's no need to widen 21A to 23.

Key word "commuted" throws out that argument. It's not needed for commutes, or during typical commuter hours except for Thursday/Friday afternoons. It's needed for weekend and holiday travel... Friday thru Sunday specifically, plus during summer travel season. During peak travel periods the backups at the lane drop are more persistent than what would be caused by a single truck or group of trucks. But even setting that aside... it's warranted based on overall volumes sustained above 50k in the summer months and the fact that 21A is a way more logical location for a lane drop.


Edited to add: Below is a relevant analysis that I ran last year using 2022 Thruway traffic data:

I wish I could find it now, but there was a discussion a while back about a potential Thruway widening from Exit 21A to 23 and there was some debate as to whether it was busier than Exit 23-24 and whether Exit 23 was an appropriate location for a lane drop. So I ran a detailed comparison of 23-24 (which was widened a few years ago) to 22-23 (which is still four lanes). Results were interesting, shown below.

Day	ADT 22-23	ADT 23-24	Difference
Sun	52475	46253	22-23 +6223
Mon	47963	47846	22-23 +116
Tues	44559	46374	23-24 (-1815)
Wed	45539	47202	23-24 (-1663)
Thurs	50550	50862	23-24 (-312)
Fri	58119	55782	22-23 +2337
Sat	46273	42125	22-23 +4148
TOTAL	49561	48224	22-23 +1337

It's clear that 23-24 has more commuter traffic, while 22-23 has more long-distance/weekend traffic between Albany and NYC. The two counteract to some degree, resulting in 23-24 generally being busier on weekdays and 22-23 being busier Fri-Sun and slightly busier overall. Either way, there's a pretty strong case that 23 is not an ideal location for a SB lane drop (especially Sat-Sun) and that 21A-23 should also be widened.

Not sure if it was discussed before - but what is the deal with weekend traffic? Does it continue to/from NYC with some drop into Catskills, or part of it is Boston/hudson valley bound?
If traffic is from/to NYC, you would still have a lane drop somewhere as making a 3-lane run all the way down will be pricey.... 

I drove down 87 from Albany to I-287 the Saturday after July 4.  It was busy, and there were some pockets with a lot of volume (mostly driven by remnant slowdowns from a cleared accident) but it flowed well at 65 MPH.  It kind of surprised me given this is the main route back to NYC from the north.  The service areas were packed though.

[kalvado]

Pfft.  Usually, the "backup" is just due to a semi going around the ramp and then up the grade.  I commuted that route weekly for over a year and then still make frequent trips out yonder.  It really isn't a big deal.

There's no need to widen 21A to 23.

Key word "commuted" throws out that argument. It's not needed for commutes, or during typical commuter hours except for Thursday/Friday afternoons. It's needed for weekend and holiday travel... Friday thru Sunday specifically, plus during summer travel season. During peak travel periods the backups at the lane drop are more persistent than what would be caused by a single truck or group of trucks. But even setting that aside... it's warranted based on overall volumes sustained above 50k in the summer months and the fact that 21A is a way more logical location for a lane drop.


Edited to add: Below is a relevant analysis that I ran last year using 2022 Thruway traffic data:

I wish I could find it now, but there was a discussion a while back about a potential Thruway widening from Exit 21A to 23 and there was some debate as to whether it was busier than Exit 23-24 and whether Exit 23 was an appropriate location for a lane drop. So I ran a detailed comparison of 23-24 (which was widened a few years ago) to 22-23 (which is still four lanes). Results were interesting, shown below.

Day	ADT 22-23	ADT 23-24	Difference
Sun	52475	46253	22-23 +6223
Mon	47963	47846	22-23 +116
Tues	44559	46374	23-24 (-1815)
Wed	45539	47202	23-24 (-1663)
Thurs	50550	50862	23-24 (-312)
Fri	58119	55782	22-23 +2337
Sat	46273	42125	22-23 +4148
TOTAL	49561	48224	22-23 +1337

It's clear that 23-24 has more commuter traffic, while 22-23 has more long-distance/weekend traffic between Albany and NYC. The two counteract to some degree, resulting in 23-24 generally being busier on weekdays and 22-23 being busier Fri-Sun and slightly busier overall. Either way, there's a pretty strong case that 23 is not an ideal location for a SB lane drop (especially Sat-Sun) and that 21A-23 should also be widened.

Not sure if it was discussed before - but what is the deal with weekend traffic? Does it continue to/from NYC with some drop into Catskills, or part of it is Boston/hudson valley bound?
If traffic is from/to NYC, you would still have a lane drop somewhere as making a 3-lane run all the way down will be pricey.... 

I drove down 87 from Albany to I-287 the Saturday after July 4.  It was busy, and there were some pockets with a lot of volume (mostly driven by remnant slowdowns from a cleared accident) but it flowed well at 65 MPH.  It kind of surprised me given this is the main route back to NYC from the north.  The service areas were packed though.

Once traffic settles with the new road capacity, it does flow. The bottleneck at lane drops ensures flow is limited to the capacity...

[vdeane]

I drove down 87 from Albany to I-287 the Saturday after July 4.  It was busy, and there were some pockets with a lot of volume (mostly driven by remnant slowdowns from a cleared accident) but it flowed well at 65 MPH.  It kind of surprised me given this is the main route back to NYC from the north.  The service areas were packed though.

I imagine Sunday was the peak travel day.  Although yesterday and even today (I swear my morning commute had twice as many cars as usual) seemed to have elevated traffic, so it seems like July 4 being a Thursday caused the travel to still be fairly spread out (although not as much as it would have been if it was on a Wednesday).

[webny99]

Pfft.  Usually, the "backup" is just due to a semi going around the ramp and then up the grade.  I commuted that route weekly for over a year and then still make frequent trips out yonder.  It really isn't a big deal.

There's no need to widen 21A to 23.

Key word "commuted" throws out that argument. It's not needed for commutes, or during typical commuter hours except for Thursday/Friday afternoons.

Your inability to read throws out yours.

What exactly didn't I read?

[webny99]

Not sure if it was discussed before - but what is the deal with weekend traffic? Does it continue to/from NYC with some drop into Catskills, or part of it is Boston/hudson valley bound?
If traffic is from/to NYC, you would still have a lane drop somewhere as making a 3-lane run all the way down will be pricey....

Volumes drop a bit at 21A but remain above 40K all the way to Harriman. I would personally support a widening to 6 lanes on the entire stretch, but 21A-23 should be the highest priority IMO, not least because it's carrying the I-90 thru traffic as well as I-87 traffic. I-90 traffic exiting at 21A also makes that the most logical point for a southbound lane drop (or perhaps more likely, an exit only lane).

I drove down 87 from Albany to I-287 the Saturday after July 4.  It was busy, and there were some pockets with a lot of volume (mostly driven by remnant slowdowns from a cleared accident) but it flowed well at 65 MPH.  It kind of surprised me given this is the main route back to NYC from the north.  The service areas were packed though.

I imagine Sunday was the peak travel day.  Although yesterday and even today (I swear my morning commute had twice as many cars as usual) seemed to have elevated traffic, so it seems like July 4 being a Thursday caused the travel to still be fairly spread out (although not as much as it would have been if it was on a Wednesday).

Thruway data won't be available for at least 30 days even if one was to request it now through FOIL, but from the continuous counts available for the Northway and what I saw of Google traffic data, Sunday was definitely the peak travel day for I-87 southbound. July 4th tends to be a time when many people take a full week's vacation, so it usually has some impact on traffic on the weekends both before and after, and that does become even more amplified when it occurs midweek.

I'm not surprised by the Thruway moving at 65 mph since NYC area drivers are typically pretty fast, and truck traffic wouldn't have been much of an issue on a holiday weekend. Under free flowing conditions you'd expect faster traffic to move at 80+ mph, so moving at the speed limit is actually relatively slow by Thruway standards.

[Alps]

During peak conditions, Thruway should be 3 lanes from Albany to Harriman. 4 lanes from Harriman to 287. Only 2 through lanes needed at Exit 15, then have I-287 restore 3 lanes. 4 lanes from Garden State Parkway to Tappan Zee.

[webny99]

^Agreed with all of that especially 4 lanes being needed from the Garden State east.

I never thought about only two thru lanes being needed at I-287, but it's probably underrated how much traffic exits to 287/NJ 17 (especially considering 17 is usually the fastest route to Manhattan/Brooklyn), so a 2 thru + 3 exit lane configuration would make sense there.

[Rothman]

During peak conditions, Thruway should be 3 lanes from Albany to Harriman. 4 lanes from Harriman to 287. Only 2 through lanes needed at Exit 15, then have I-287 restore 3 lanes. 4 lanes from Garden State Parkway to Tappan Zee.

So...during non-peak, we remove the lanes.

[Alps]

During peak conditions, Thruway should be 3 lanes from Albany to Harriman. 4 lanes from Harriman to 287. Only 2 through lanes needed at Exit 15, then have I-287 restore 3 lanes. 4 lanes from Garden State Parkway to Tappan Zee.

So...during non-peak, we remove the lanes.

Sure, they can be for bikey-wikeys.

[bmitchelf]

A further argument for Thruway widening between Exit 21A and 23 became apparent this weekend... as reliable redundancy to free I-90. When the southbound lane drop at Exit 23 starts to back up as it does during busy travel periods, this causes through travelers on I-90 or I-87 SB headed for I-90 EB to opt for free I-90 instead of the Thruway to avoid the congestion. In turn, all that traffic is forced on to the single lane loop ramp from the end of free I-90 back onto to the Berkshire Spur, and that starts to back up because it was not built to handle all the through traffic. As it happened this past Sunday, the backup on free I-90 ended up being worse than the backup at Exit 23, despite being entirely caused by the latter backup. A Thruway widening down to the Berkshire Spur would eliminate both issues and encourage traffic to stay on the Thruway to prevent the loop on I-90 EB from ever becoming an issue (outside of a major incident on the Thruway).

Pfft.  Usually, the "backup" is just due to a semi going around the ramp and then up the grade.  I commuted that route weekly for over a year and then still make frequent trips out yonder.  It really isn't a big deal.

There's no need to widen 21A to 23.

I wonder if they were doing it over, would they do a left hand turn from the bridge to the on-ramp rather than a cloverleaf? If it's one lane, probably should have left it as a climbing lane up the hill, too.

[Mr. Matté]

I'm going to take a wild stab and say Sloatsburg is still closed.

[vdeane]

I'm going to take a wild stab and say Sloatsburg is still closed.

Plattekill, I take it?  Yeah, I imagine it's getting hammered these days with both Sloatsburg and Malden closed.  At least Sloatsburg is supposed to reopen this quarter.

[74/171FAN]

Very unique signage at the beginning of this video watching it 13 years later. 

[James]

Ok, some semi-hot takes about NYS Thruway lane expansions:

-Exit 57 (NY-75) to Exit 55 (US-219): 6 lanes

-Exit 55 to Exit 49 (NY-78): 8 lanes
(6 thru-lanes when at the NY-400, I-190, Walden Ave, NY-33, and I-290 interchanges; also remove both Exit 52A - William St. and Exit 50A - Cleveland Dr. for better thru-traffic flow)

-Exit 49 to Exit 47 (I-490/Le Roy): 6 lanes

-Exit 45 (I-490/Victor) to Exit 25A (I-88): 6 lanes

-Exit 25A to Exit 21A (Berkshire Connector): 8 lanes

-Exit 21A to Exit 16 (NY-17/Future 1-86): 6 lanes

-Exit 16 to I-95: 8 lanes

-Exit B1 (I-90/Albany) to I-84 in MA: 6 lanes (and then 8 lanes until Boston)

When I-90 WB traffic exits for Buffalo, a decent amount is passing thru Buffalo on their way to Toronto and Michigan. Thus, I think a 6-lane I-90* from Buffalo to New England will be needed in the coming decades. 

*(except for a brief 4-lane break between the significantly improved I-490 interchanges for Rochester)

But I think for west of Buffalo till I-86 in PA, 4 lanes does suffice (but then it should be 6 lanes from I-86 till Cleveland). 

[webny99]

Ok, some semi-hot takes about NYS Thruway lane expansions:
...

-Exit 49 to Exit 47 (I-490/Le Roy): 6 lanes

-Exit 45 (I-490/Victor) to Exit 25A (I-88): 6 lanes

...

When I-90 WB traffic exits for Buffalo, a decent amount is passing thru Buffalo on their way to Toronto and Michigan. Thus, I think a 6-lane I-90* from Buffalo to New England will be needed in the coming decades. 

*(except for a brief 4-lane break between the significantly improved I-490 interchanges for Rochester)
 

Interestingly enough, traffic volumes on the stretch near Rochester are actually higher than they are east of Utica, particularly between Utica and Amsterdam. Traffic volumes east of Albany are also fairly low. And, would the I-490 interchanges be rebuilt/redesigned as part of your proposal? Because they sure aren't great now and haven't been significantly improved in decades to my knowledge (other than arguably the toll booth removal).

As for traffic heading to the GTA and Michigan, don't underestimate how much of a deterrent the border crossing is, especially for Buffalo-Detroit which is only about 90 minutes longer through the states to begin with, and border wait times can easily exceed that on peak travel days.

[Rothman]

Fictional.

[pj3970]

Ok, some semi-hot takes about NYS Thruway lane expansions:
...

-Exit 49 to Exit 47 (I-490/Le Roy): 6 lanes

-Exit 45 (I-490/Victor) to Exit 25A (I-88): 6 lanes

...

When I-90 WB traffic exits for Buffalo, a decent amount is passing thru Buffalo on their way to Toronto and Michigan. Thus, I think a 6-lane I-90* from Buffalo to New England will be needed in the coming decades. 

*(except for a brief 4-lane break between the significantly improved I-490 interchanges for Rochester)
 

Interestingly enough, traffic volumes on the stretch near Rochester are actually higher than they are east of Utica, particularly between Utica and Amsterdam. Traffic volumes east of Albany are also fairly low. And, would the I-490 interchanges be rebuilt/redesigned as part of your proposal? Because they sure aren't great now and haven't been significantly improved in decades to my knowledge (other than arguably the toll booth removal).

As for traffic heading to the GTA and Michigan, don't underestimate how much of a deterrent the border crossing is, especially for Buffalo-Detroit which is only about 90 minutes longer through the states to begin with, and border wait times can easily exceed that on peak travel days.

Well, the section between Utica and Amsterdam does have 2 alternatives for car traffic, one on each side of the Erie Canal and Mohawk River...NY 5 on the north side and NY 5S on the south side...however those 2 routes are really not suitable for truck traffic, especially NY 5S, although I do remember when NY 5S was used when the Schoharie River bridge collapsed on the Thruway, so with some work it possibly could be made useable for trucks, except for Ft. Plain and Canajoharie.

[thenetwork]

But I think for west of Buffalo till I-86 in PA, 4 lanes does suffice (but then it should be 6 lanes from I-86 till Cleveland). 

....Aaaannd 65 MPH across ALL of PA on I-90. 

[vdeane]

Ok, some semi-hot takes about NYS Thruway lane expansions:

-Exit 57 (NY-75) to Exit 55 (US-219): 6 lanes

-Exit 55 to Exit 49 (NY-78): 8 lanes
(6 thru-lanes when at the NY-400, I-190, Walden Ave, NY-33, and I-290 interchanges; also remove both Exit 52A - William St. and Exit 50A - Cleveland Dr. for better thru-traffic flow)

-Exit 49 to Exit 47 (I-490/Le Roy): 6 lanes

-Exit 45 (I-490/Victor) to Exit 25A (I-88): 6 lanes

-Exit 25A to Exit 21A (Berkshire Connector): 8 lanes

-Exit 21A to Exit 16 (NY-17/Future 1-86): 6 lanes

-Exit 16 to I-95: 8 lanes

-Exit B1 (I-90/Albany) to I-84 in MA: 6 lanes (and then 8 lanes until Boston)

When I-90 WB traffic exits for Buffalo, a decent amount is passing thru Buffalo on their way to Toronto and Michigan. Thus, I think a 6-lane I-90* from Buffalo to New England will be needed in the coming decades. 

*(except for a brief 4-lane break between the significantly improved I-490 interchanges for Rochester)

But I think for west of Buffalo till I-86 in PA, 4 lanes does suffice (but then it should be 6 lanes from I-86 till Cleveland). 

That's excessive.  Traffic light east of 33 and west of 27/28.  14A-15 and south of 8 also works fine as-is, as does the Berkshire Spur.  25-25A and 23-24 are also fine.

And yeah, I'm not sure NY-Michigan via Canada is as common as one would think, especially for people who don't live in either Michigan or Buffalo.  US customs looked at me like I had three heads when I did that on my way to the Michigan City meet (my overnight was in Port Huron, and I only disclosed my travels further west when they wanted more details on my trip itinerary).

But I think for west of Buffalo till I-86 in PA, 4 lanes does suffice (but then it should be 6 lanes from I-86 till Cleveland). 

....Aaaannd 65 MPH across ALL of PA on I-90. 

And 70 west of I-79 to Ohio.

[froggie]

And yeah, I'm not sure NY-Michigan via Canada is as common as one would think, especially for people who don't live in either Michigan or Buffalo.  US customs looked at me like I had three heads when I did that on my way to the Michigan City meet (my overnight was in Port Huron, and I only disclosed my travels further west when they wanted more details on my trip itinerary).

I suspect it might be more common than you're thinking however.  And I had no problems at Customs the two times I've done it (admittedly pre-COVID).