Florida

[florida]

Thomasvista, what is the Gaines Street project that Tally's doing? Are they adding in parking spots and reducing the road to two lanes (a la Edgewater Drive in Orlando)?

Is FDOT trying to delete ALL of SR 811 in Broward County? Or just a certain section?

[thomasvista]

Thomasvista, what is the Gaines Street project that Tally's doing? Are they adding in parking spots and reducing the road to two lanes (a la Edgewater Drive in Orlando)?

Is FDOT trying to delete ALL of SR 811 in Broward County? Or just a certain section?

Yep, that's exactly what they're doing to Gaines......reducing lanes, adding on street parking to $timulate businesses to move there and create an 18-hour entertainment district. In other words, they're spending big money to try to make Gaines Street become what Midtown Tallahassee became without any intervention. Yeah, if I had a business that catered to an upscale clientele, I'd be the first to move to Gaines Street 

The intent is to transfer all of 811 in Broward. I'm not sure what the rationale behind it is though. I *think* (and this is just an educated guess) that FDOT probably thinks that whenever the FEC project takes off, the cities are going to want to redevelop around it, and since 811 is smack next to the FEC line, the cities will want to do pedestrian-flavored things to it, eliminating its usefulness as a major arterial. I say this because this is the same reason that Olive Ave & Dixie Hwy in WPB was transferred off the system.

Now I'm not in on the latest news and status regarding the FEC project, but I know the people who are. I'm actually rooting for this project, but it's many years off, so I don't know why we're such in a big rush to get rid of 811. Roadway transfers can take time to complete once they're proposed (the Dixie/Olive transfers are not complete, and they started back in 99), so maybe that's why they're starting now with 811, to get a head start before the FEC project is up and running.

[florida]

Thomasvista, what is the Gaines Street project that Tally's doing? Are they adding in parking spots and reducing the road to two lanes (a la Edgewater Drive in Orlando)?

Is FDOT trying to delete ALL of SR 811 in Broward County? Or just a certain section?

Yep, that's exactly what they're doing to Gaines......reducing lanes, adding on street parking to $timulate businesses to move there and create an 18-hour entertainment district. In other words, they're spending big money to try to make Gaines Street become what Midtown Tallahassee became without any intervention. Yeah, if I had a business that catered to an upscale clientele, I'd be the first to move to Gaines Street 

The intent is to transfer all of 811 in Broward. I'm not sure what the rationale behind it is though. I *think* (and this is just an educated guess) that FDOT probably thinks that whenever the FEC project takes off, the cities are going to want to redevelop around it, and since 811 is smack next to the FEC line, the cities will want to do pedestrian-flavored things to it, eliminating its usefulness as a major arterial. I say this because this is the same reason that Olive Ave & Dixie Hwy in WPB was transferred off the system.

Now I'm not in on the latest news and status regarding the FEC project, but I know the people who are. I'm actually rooting for this project, but it's many years off, so I don't know why we're such in a big rush to get rid of 811. Roadway transfers can take time to complete once they're proposed (the Dixie/Olive transfers are not complete, and they started back in 99), so maybe that's why they're starting now with 811, to get a head start before the FEC project is up and running.

Gaine$ $treet $timulation. They will have to beautify it quite a bit to lure anyone there. I wonder iif they'll force that library bar to move.

Thanks for the info about 811. I wasn't sure if they were going to delete it from Sunrise Blvd to Oakland Park Blvd or all of it. If they do redevelopment in the future, I hope they don't sever all the east-west SRs in the process (like SR 820, SR 842 and SR 806).

[thomasvista]

Thanks for the info about 811. I wasn't sure if they were going to delete it from Sunrise Blvd to Oakland Park Blvd or all of it. If they do redevelopment in the future, I hope they don't sever all the east-west SRs in the process (like SR 820, SR 842 and SR 806).

No I seriously doubt that will happen. The e/w state roads would serve the stations, and thus function as SIS connectors, making them more important.

[realjd]

Yep, it's 6-laned from SR 519 to SR 528. Since it'll be the extension, will the whole thing become SR 404 after it's completed? I think some numbers are outside of the grid to differentiate them as more important roads than other roads in the area, so you can identify them easier. SR 404 is a limited access freeway serving Patrick AFB while all the other 5xx numbers in the area are at grade roads. SR 573 is south of SR 60 in Tampa, but it serves MacDill AFB, as opposed to other 6xx routes in the area. SR 112 in Miami is a direct route to MIA.

Get ready to say bye to the oldest BGS in the area, down there.

You mean the SR-518 sign on I95? That thing is ancient. As for the Pineda Causeway, those SR404 signs along Wickham aren't new. They've been there for years. I haven't ever seen it signed as a county road. They're a weird non-standard state shield though, and I'll bet it wasn't FDOT that put them up. That makes sense that they would use non-standard numbers for important roads. It gets confusing with all the 5xx roads around here! I heard somewhere that they're considering (long term) extending Pineda all the way out to Orlando. It may have been in the OOCEA 50 year plan or something. They're also planning on building a new road along the west edge of Brevard (the St. John's Heritage Parkway) that will circle Palm Bay, run west of I95, connect to an extended Ellis Road (with a new I95 interchange), and end up connecting to the Pineda. The newspaper also has been saying that they're planning on building a new interchange at Grant Rd, but I'm not holding my breath on either of those any time soon.

CR516 (Palm Bay Road) is currently being widened and is a complete mess, and SR507 (Babcock) is being repaved from Palm Bay Road to Malabar Road (SR514) even though the old pavement was in great shape.

[florida]

Yep, it's 6-laned from SR 519 to SR 528. Since it'll be the extension, will the whole thing become SR 404 after it's completed? I think some numbers are outside of the grid to differentiate them as more important roads than other roads in the area, so you can identify them easier. SR 404 is a limited access freeway serving Patrick AFB while all the other 5xx numbers in the area are at grade roads. SR 573 is south of SR 60 in Tampa, but it serves MacDill AFB, as opposed to other 6xx routes in the area. SR 112 in Miami is a direct route to MIA.

Get ready to say bye to the oldest BGS in the area, down there.

You mean the SR-518 sign on I95? That thing is ancient. As for the Pineda Causeway, those SR404 signs along Wickham aren't new. They've been there for years. I haven't ever seen it signed as a county road. They're a weird non-standard state shield though, and I'll bet it wasn't FDOT that put them up. That makes sense that they would use non-standard numbers for important roads. It gets confusing with all the 5xx roads around here! I heard somewhere that they're considering (long term) extending Pineda all the way out to Orlando. It may have been in the OOCEA 50 year plan or something. They're also planning on building a new road along the west edge of Brevard (the St. John's Heritage Parkway) that will circle Palm Bay, run west of I95, connect to an extended Ellis Road (with a new I95 interchange), and end up connecting to the Pineda. The newspaper also has been saying that they're planning on building a new interchange at Grant Rd, but I'm not holding my breath on either of those any time soon.

CR516 (Palm Bay Road) is currently being widened and is a complete mess, and SR507 (Babcock) is being repaved from Palm Bay Road to Malabar Road (SR514) even though the old pavement was in great shape.

Yeah, that's the sign. I wish they would just retrofit it onto an overhead after I-95 is widened. There's one JCT shield left on NB Wickham at the Old Pineda intersection that has a "sharp" image of Florida, but newer semi-normal ones sprang up at the New Pineda intersection, along with a WB reassurance shield after the RR tracks. The latter is contractor-erected because there was no reassurance shield before the realignment and subsequent resurfacing.

The non-standard numbers is just my theory. But, they are also used if a certain numerical bracket has no more usage.

It would be great for a road semi-directly connecting Melbourne Viera and Orlando. There are only four crossings from Brevard County to points westward, and that's supposed to serve 71 north-south miles of residents living there.

Also an exit to break up the 17-mile wilderness would be nice. Would hate to think if a tourist missed the Palm Bay exit only to drive an extra 34 miles to make it up.

[Alex]

Jacksonville road construction shows no sign of ending

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-08-01/story/jacksonville_road_construction_shows_no_sign_of_ending

[mpgarr]

I would sure like for that project to happen--it'd be great to by-pass Starke. I am sure though that some locals would go out there and set up Boiled P-nut stands---got to have me some Boiled P-nuts while I drive along 301!

[rickmastfan67]

Hey guys, I'm curious here, which type of the FL Toll shield is used the most?  The one with the orange shape of FL in the shield, or the black state shape?

[Alex]

The black one is used the most. From what we have seen the OOCEA tends to post the most orange outline shields, though, a few FDOT orange outline stragglers appear, such as this FL 293 Toll shield in Okaloosa County.

[florida]

Black 408 shields have been popping up down here. All the 414 shields are orange, though. 528 is a mix of both.

[lamsalfl]

I prfer the orange ones.  Gives the sign a little more "oomf" kinda like driving on 2-lane roads for a while you are dying to see and rejoice when you finally see a red, white, and blue sign ahead.

[florida]

I'm scouring through the photographic archives, and it seems the first type of signage for the Secondary Routes when they first came out, were yellow(?) diamond shields. The "S" was at the top, and the number was across the middle. Two pictures have confirmed this (one for S-250, the other for S-466A). They were probably used briefly in 1955, until the keys shield was used for them.

[agentsteel53]

can you post the links to these photos?

thanks!

[florida]

I saved the pictures, but will upload them on here, plus a few other goodies. (Of course, giving the link.)

[florida]

These are from http://www.floridamemory.com/PhotographicCollection/

On I-75, Fla 470 is no more.


This one had the tag of SR 700 and US 92.


Business 1 and A1A in St. Augustine


Gulf Breeze 1960, just after SR 399


Clearwater Causeway


After the unveiling of a road sign for an I-75 dedication.


Self-explanatory








SR 44 east at US 17/US 92/SR 40 back when SR 40 was not built between Barberville and Ormond Beach, so it went south on US 17 and east along current SR 44 to New Smyrna Beach.




US 98 east at US 19/27/Alt 27 in Perry. Nice cutouts! No clue on the huge US 98 shields.


SR A1A on Volusia Ave (International Speedway Blvd) at Beach Street, before US 92 was extended to the beachside, and before the old causeway-type extension was built. You had to make a left on Beach, and a right onto Broadway (one block north of Bay Street) to cross the bridge.



In Tallahassee on Perry Highway(?) west at US 319 (think it was before Apalachee Parkway was opened).


North split of US 27/US 319 in Tallahassee.


US 41 and US 129 split off in the early 50s.



Colonial Drive east at Orange Avenue (1955)


SR 50 at US 27


SR 20 east at US 90


Part of the SR 55 sign in Greenville (just before it was numbered US 221).


US 27 at US 98 in Highlands County


The Secondary Route diamond signs (others posted in old signs thread). This one is for S-399 in Gulf Breeze. How calm it was back then.


S-437A in Apopka


S-434


S-373 in 1976.


US 27 in Lake County.


S-101A in Duval County


US 17 and SR 40 duplexing in DeLand....but...SR 11 triplexed with them too?? Maybe SR 11 was signed down to US 92 (Int'l Speedway Blvd)??

[agentsteel53]

amazing stuff.  Especially the white-square shields, which I had never seen an example of previously.  That must've been the standard between the cutouts with FLORIDA/US embossed and number printed on, and the colored 24" shields.

no idea either on that 98 that appears to be colored, but not the usual white/black scheme.  Maybe an earlier color scheme before they finalized everything?

for some of these, I'm almost tempted to shell out the ten bucks for a high-resolution scan.  A nice example of an S- route in a diamond would be good to have, as would some of the cutouts, and at least one white square. 

[florida]

amazing stuff.  Especially the white-square shields, which I had never seen an example of previously.  That must've been the standard between the cutouts with FLORIDA/US embossed and number printed on, and the colored 24" shields.

no idea either on that 98 that appears to be colored, but not the usual white/black scheme.  Maybe an earlier color scheme before they finalized everything?

for some of these, I'm almost tempted to shell out the ten bucks for a high-resolution scan.  A nice example of an S- route in a diamond would be good to have, as would some of the cutouts, and at least one white square. 

The white square shields reminded me of Virginia (didn't they use them there too?). A couple of the photos, with them, it seems they're shaded some color versus the white on the outer edge of the shield.

The 98 shield could also be from when it was extended to Perry and south?

The S-250 diamond was the clearest one available, followed by the S-179A and one other. There is also a photo of S-466A (lots of the photos were looking down the roads) and you can see the back sides of both the US 27 and US 441 cutouts, but I didn't post it since it wasn't that important.

[agentsteel53]

actually could you please post the 27/441?  I want to see what is embossed on them, if I can (it may be too low-res but it's worth a try).  Florida was using cast aluminum shields in the late 1940s, with FLORIDA and US cast in with a square font, and the number printed on, first in square fonts and then in round.  The back of this shield is completely flat:



(Don't believe I've seen a state shield of this type, just two US'es)

They then switched to embossed steel, with round fonts.  The backs of these shields have the reversed design, incuse, as expected for embossing.





then to the 24" shields around 1955: the classic Keys state shields, and the white square US shields.  They went with the colors in 1956.

so it would be nice to see if some of those cutouts were cast or embossed, and with square or round fonts.  At this level of detail, I am not able to discern whether FLORIDA/US is in square or round.  As I've mentioned, I'm tempted to throw down a few bucks for some high-res scans.  One good example of an S-, one good example of a white square, and all the cutouts for further research.

oh, and regarding the difference in shading on the white squares.  The shield itself may have had a layer of reflective sheeting, while the background did not.  Note the 98 cutout has the reflective sheeting only over "US" 98 and the 301 has it only over "FLORIDA" and "US 301".  So they were being economical.  The silver scotchlite tends to show up a bit darker than non-reflective white, except when lit directly for the retroreflective effect to kick in.

One last note: the white squares were used everywhere.  They were in the 1948 MUTCD for freeway and junction use, with the state/US cutout to be used only as reassurance.  I have a white square US 12 sitting on my floor that is from Indiana, and if I thought about it carefully I could name examples from at least 10 other states.  South Dakota comes to mind.  Missouri.  Virginia as you mentioned.  West Virginia.  Massachusetts.  Oklahoma.  etc.

[florida]

Found some other pictures, including two clearer photos of the diamond shields. Regarding other photos I have posted, the US 90 BGS, the US 27/SR 60 overheads and the County Line Road button copy BGS have no confirmed dates on them. The S-373 picture is from the Tallahassee Fire Dept.

S-229


S-127


This is Charles Barron's picture from 1960.


US 1 at the Bahia Honda Bridge.


SR 30A at US 98 in Bay County, somewhere around Phillips Inlet and the Hathaway Bridge.


SR 100 at US 301 in Starke with a white shield US 301 sign.


FHP is helping out Lois Giddens (this is under General Collection...no author)


This is Carolyn Rae Sandgren (listed under Department of Commerce...no author). This is also before the 1946 renumbering.

[florida]

Couldn't find the S-466A picture, I might not have saved it, but here is one from SR 18 with US 41/441 cutouts facing away.

[agentsteel53]

the 41/441 is alas too small for me to make a determination.

as for "before 1946's renumbering"???  that can't be right!  those are 1948 FHWA fonts.  Also those look like 24x24 shields.  that must be 1955 or after.

which of course fails to explain why FL-1 is signed there.  Verrrry interesting.

[florida]

They were dated 1946....it's a huge mystery 

Maybe they could not get around to completely renumbering the routes until 1949...or at least mid 1948.

[agentsteel53]

those 24" shields may very well date back to 1948.  The MUTCD did specify big white squares for intersections.  Doesn't explain, though, why Florida would choose to emboss its smaller shields.  Using up the last batch of cast-aluminum blanks makes sense, but to make up new embossed blanks with the new round fonts does not.

I cannot tell if the 16" Keys shield below the square-font US 90 is flat or embossed ... no shadows to indicate embossing but there are no shadows on the 90 either, which I am quite sure has at least the FLORIDA and US embossed or cast.

what's also interesting is that the 24" keys shield is a different style.  More keys, smaller size. 

I think the only person that really knows when these photos were taken is Carolyn Rae Sandgren!  Maybe she knows how old she was, and thus what year the photos are from.  1948 or maybe 1949 seems to be the most reasonable option.

[FLRoads]

Awesome a$$ pictures!!! I spent like 20 minutes drooling over all these sweet old pictures of how Florida roads and shields used to look. It is quite a shame that both aspects are long gone, for the most part. Luckily we still have some reminders of Florida's past, but those are few and far between.

By the way, I instantly recognized where that S-434 picture was taken, since I lived right near there when I lived in Orlando!! That picture was taken at the intersection with current Ronald Reagan Parkway (Seminole County 427).