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Author Topic: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)  (Read 32562 times)

jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2018, 11:00:14 PM »

There is plenty of local traffic between the Annapolis area and Kent Island, and Baltimore and D.C. area commuters from Kent Island.

I don't know of any bridge in the world of that nature (function of length and height) that has a 10-foot right shoulder.  Deck space on a bridge like that is extremely expensive to build.

DE Rt. 1 over the C&D canal.

Betsy Ross Bridge over the Delaware has an 8 foot shoulder (shoulders provided as bridge now has 6 lanes, not 8)

NJ/PA Turnpike bridge also has 8-10 foot shoulders.

The new Scudder Falls Bridge is being designed with shoulders, I think.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2018, 11:15:47 PM »

I don't know of any bridge in the world of that nature (function of length and height) that has a 10-foot right shoulder.  Deck space on a bridge like that is extremely expensive to build.
DE Rt. 1 over the C&D canal.
Betsy Ross Bridge over the Delaware has an 8 foot shoulder (shoulders provided as bridge now has 6 lanes, not 8)
NJ/PA Turnpike bridge also has 8-10 foot shoulders.

Those not nearly the total length, height, and length of the main span.  The eastern channel span of the CBB is in the length range of those above.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2018, 11:28:47 PM »

NJ/PA Turnpike bridge also has 8-10 foot shoulders.
Actually 12 feet. Same with Newark Bay Bridge. (shoulders provided as bridge now has 4 lanes, not 6)

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #103 on: August 29, 2018, 12:06:46 AM »

Looks like Microsoft confused this bridge with the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/50-roads-you-need-to-cruise-down-before-you-die/ss-BBMwkda?ocid=spartandhp#image=1


The bridges come in at number 4.

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #104 on: August 29, 2018, 09:35:42 AM »

There is plenty of local traffic between the Annapolis area and Kent Island, and Baltimore and D.C. area commuters from Kent Island.

I don't know of any bridge in the world of that nature (function of length and height) that has a 10-foot right shoulder.  Deck space on a bridge like that is extremely expensive to build.

DE Rt. 1 over the C&D canal.

Betsy Ross Bridge over the Delaware has an 8 foot shoulder (shoulders provided as bridge now has 6 lanes, not 8)

NJ/PA Turnpike bridge also has 8-10 foot shoulders.

The new Scudder Falls Bridge is being designed with shoulders, I think.

The new San Francisco Bay Bridge has both left and right shoulders. 

The new Woodrow Wilson Bridge connecting MD-DC-VA has full shoulders.

Don't the new Tappan Zee Bridge and Goethals Bridge also have real shoulders?

I think it is becoming the norm now to build shoulders on major bridges...
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #105 on: August 29, 2018, 09:54:01 AM »

DE Rt. 1 over the C&D canal.
Betsy Ross Bridge over the Delaware has an 8 foot shoulder (shoulders provided as bridge now has 6 lanes, not 8)
NJ/PA Turnpike bridge also has 8-10 foot shoulders.
The new Scudder Falls Bridge is being designed with shoulders, I think.
The new San Francisco Bay Bridge has both left and right shoulders. 
The new Woodrow Wilson Bridge connecting MD-DC-VA has full shoulders.
Don't the new Tappan Zee Bridge and Goethals Bridge also have real shoulders?
I think it is becoming the norm now to build shoulders on major bridges...

Norm?  I don't think so.  The SF and TZ are the only ones approaching the main span of CBB (1,600 feet horiz. and 190 feet vert.)

C&D and Goethals are in the 700-foot span range, WWB about 200.  Betsy Ross and PA/NY Turnpike were built with lanes that were later reverted to shoulders.  Scudder Falls is basically a viaduct.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 09:56:12 AM by Beltway »
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #106 on: August 29, 2018, 03:55:36 PM »

DE Rt. 1 over the C&D canal.
Betsy Ross Bridge over the Delaware has an 8 foot shoulder (shoulders provided as bridge now has 6 lanes, not 8)
NJ/PA Turnpike bridge also has 8-10 foot shoulders.
The new Scudder Falls Bridge is being designed with shoulders, I think.
The new San Francisco Bay Bridge has both left and right shoulders. 
The new Woodrow Wilson Bridge connecting MD-DC-VA has full shoulders.
Don't the new Tappan Zee Bridge and Goethals Bridge also have real shoulders?
I think it is becoming the norm now to build shoulders on major bridges...

Norm?  I don't think so.  The SF and TZ are the only ones approaching the main span of CBB (1,600 feet horiz. and 190 feet vert.)

C&D and Goethals are in the 700-foot span range, WWB about 200.  Betsy Ross and PA/NY Turnpike were built with lanes that were later reverted to shoulders.  Scudder Falls is basically a viaduct.
. Forget the main span. Approaches are also structures. I can tell you from inside the industry that it's becoming more and more common due to the safety benefits, especially on Interstates.

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #107 on: August 29, 2018, 04:10:43 PM »

The SF and TZ are the only ones approaching the main span of CBB (1,600 feet horiz. and 190 feet vert.)
C&D and Goethals are in the 700-foot span range, WWB about 200.  Betsy Ross and PA/NY Turnpike were built with lanes that were later reverted to shoulders.  Scudder Falls is basically a viaduct.
. Forget the main span. Approaches are also structures. I can tell you from inside the industry that it's becoming more and more common due to the safety benefits, especially on Interstates.

A bridge with a long main span usually is very high and very long, as in what clearances and structure length is needed to cross a channel and estuary that handles large ocean going ships.  So the cost of providing extra structure width on bridge like that is substantially higher.
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Scott M. Kozel
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #108 on: August 29, 2018, 06:14:26 PM »

The SF and TZ are the only ones approaching the main span of CBB (1,600 feet horiz. and 190 feet vert.)
C&D and Goethals are in the 700-foot span range, WWB about 200.  Betsy Ross and PA/NY Turnpike were built with lanes that were later reverted to shoulders.  Scudder Falls is basically a viaduct.
. Forget the main span. Approaches are also structures. I can tell you from inside the industry that it's becoming more and more common due to the safety benefits, especially on Interstates.

A bridge with a long main span usually is very high and very long, as in what clearances and structure length is needed to cross a channel and estuary that handles large ocean going ships.  So the cost of providing extra structure width on bridge like that is substantially higher.
Same percentage of additional cost as anywhere else, just a higher cost to take that percentage from. I'm sure the Tappan Zee holds its own on a cost basis.

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #109 on: August 29, 2018, 06:42:22 PM »

There is plenty of local traffic between the Annapolis area and Kent Island, and Baltimore and D.C. area commuters from Kent Island.

I don't know of any bridge in the world of that nature (function of length and height) that has a 10-foot right shoulder.  Deck space on a bridge like that is extremely expensive to build.

DE Rt. 1 over the C&D canal.

Betsy Ross Bridge over the Delaware has an 8 foot shoulder (shoulders provided as bridge now has 6 lanes, not 8)

NJ/PA Turnpike bridge also has 8-10 foot shoulders.

The new Scudder Falls Bridge is being designed with shoulders, I think.

The new San Francisco Bay Bridge has both left and right shoulders. 

The new Woodrow Wilson Bridge connecting MD-DC-VA has full shoulders.

Don't the new Tappan Zee Bridge and Goethals Bridge also have real shoulders?

I think it is becoming the norm now to build shoulders on major bridges...
The Newark Bay Bridge on the NJ Turnpike always had full shoulders.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #110 on: August 29, 2018, 08:09:29 PM »

A bridge with a long main span usually is very high and very long, as in what clearances and structure length is needed to cross a channel and estuary that handles large ocean going ships.  So the cost of providing extra structure width on bridge like that is substantially higher.
Same percentage of additional cost as anywhere else, just a higher cost to take that percentage from. I'm sure the Tappan Zee holds its own on a cost basis.

The I-664 South Trestle and North Approach Bridge together would be about the 4.3 mile length of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge.  Low-level viaducts.  They do have full right shoulders, but I would daresay there is a radical difference in what the extra width cost.

Per how this shoulder discussion started with respect to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge.  Whether building a third bridge or building a new bridge with enough lanes to replace the existing bridges, including full shoulders is a tough call.  If they can afford to add 10 feet of shoulder they might just decide to add 2 more feet and use it as another lane.  Another person wrote, "be replaced with a 6-lane bridge with full shoulders".  If they could afford that then they might reason having 8 lanes with 2 foot shoulders on basically the same deck width.
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Scott M. Kozel
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #111 on: August 29, 2018, 08:18:48 PM »

The Newark Bay Bridge on the NJ Turnpike always had full shoulders.

Wasn't that originally a 6-lane bridge and then later on two of the lanes were reverted to full shoulders?

In any event, Wikipedia says this about the NJTP Newark Bay Bridge --

During certain hours, especially morning rush hour, the eastbound shoulder of the Turnpike Extension (including the bridge) is opened for normal traffic (by green arrows above, instead of red Xs), for a total of 5 lanes (3 eastbound, 2 westbound).
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Scott M. Kozel
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #112 on: August 29, 2018, 08:43:45 PM »

The Newark Bay Bridge on the NJ Turnpike always had full shoulders.

Wasn't that originally a 6-lane bridge and then later on two of the lanes were reverted to full shoulders?

In any event, Wikipedia says this about the NJTP Newark Bay Bridge --

During certain hours, especially morning rush hour, the eastbound shoulder of the Turnpike Extension (including the bridge) is opened for normal traffic (by green arrows above, instead of red Xs), for a total of 5 lanes (3 eastbound, 2 westbound).
You are correct - it started at 6 lanes and went to 4. The rush hour thing is over because the Pulaski Skyway reopened, so it's back to 2/2 only.

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #113 on: August 29, 2018, 09:03:45 PM »

When it had 6 lanes it had to be a long while back.  As far as I remember, when I lived there anyway, it was always 4 lanes from Exit 14 to 14C and the free part to the Holland Tunnel ( Jersey Avenue).  However, it was not until either right before I moved to FL in 1990 or after I moved here to FL and visited home, I noticed that there was full shoulders which struck me odd as most bridges of that type feature none usually.
I am guessing it was once 3/3 and then dropped to 2/2  at 14A at one time.  Though even the Passaic River Eastern Spur and Hackensack River Eastern Spur were originally 2/2 with the piers underneath the structure to show that.  When they did the work on it I remember it was long after the Western Spur opened as well.  So it is odd that the extension had one more travel lane each way than the mainline it stems from as originally even the 3/3/3/3 were at 2/2 when the Turnpike first opened.

However, stranger things on roads have happened. 
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #114 on: August 29, 2018, 11:51:30 PM »

Isn't the extra shoulder width on the new Tappan Zee Bridge already possibly spoken for with respect to adding railroad to the bridge?

One alternative would be to build a third span between the two and that would carry a 2-track railroad. 

Another alternative would add one track to the inside of each of the two new bridges, and the buffer space for the track would probably consume most or nearly all of the left and right shoulders after the 4 lanes were shifted to the right.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #115 on: August 30, 2018, 08:54:54 AM »

When it had 6 lanes it had to be a long while back.  As far as I remember, when I lived there anyway, it was always 4 lanes from Exit 14 to 14C and the free part to the Holland Tunnel ( Jersey Avenue).  However, it was not until either right before I moved to FL in 1990 or after I moved here to FL and visited home, I noticed that there was full shoulders which struck me odd as most bridges of that type feature none usually.
I am guessing it was once 3/3 and then dropped to 2/2  at 14A at one time.  Though even the Passaic River Eastern Spur and Hackensack River Eastern Spur were originally 2/2 with the piers underneath the structure to show that.  When they did the work on it I remember it was long after the Western Spur opened as well.  So it is odd that the extension had one more travel lane each way than the mainline it stems from as originally even the 3/3/3/3 were at 2/2 when the Turnpike first opened.

However, stranger things on roads have happened.

The Newark Bay Bridge and Hudson County extension went from 3/3 to 2/2 with shoulders in 1960 per NJTP Annual Report.

The two major bridges on the eastern spur were originally 3/3 with no shoulders, and then widened in 1973/74 to include shoulders.  Please see my thread "Old NJ Turnpike Photos" for evidence...
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #116 on: August 30, 2018, 01:22:29 PM »

The bridge on I-295 (West Beltway) over the St. Johns River also has full (or nearly full - the left might be a couple feet short) shoulders.

Isn't the extra shoulder width on the new Tappan Zee Bridge already possibly spoken for with respect to adding railroad to the bridge?

One alternative would be to build a third span between the two and that would carry a 2-track railroad. 

Another alternative would add one track to the inside of each of the two new bridges, and the buffer space for the track would probably consume most or nearly all of the left and right shoulders after the 4 lanes were shifted to the right.
I would hope they wouldn't take the shoulder.  Those shoulders are needed - a major problem with the old bridge (and until they finish the new ones) is disabled vehicles/accidents blocking travel lanes and causing multi-hour delays because there's nowhere to pull over.  The project site doesn't specify where any future rail would go, just that the bridge has the "structural capacity" for it.

It also notes dedicated bus lanes, but whether those are shared with shoulders or not isn't specified, and both are implied in various parts of the FAQ.  If not, one could possibly add rail there.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #117 on: August 30, 2018, 04:01:47 PM »

The bridge on I-295 (West Beltway) over the St. Johns River also has full (or nearly full - the left might be a couple feet short) shoulders.

Mostly low-level trestles with a navigational span with 150 feet of horizontal clearance and 65 feet of vertical clearance.  Intracoastal Waterway (ICW) clearances.
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/BookletChart/11492_BookletChart.pdf

Again not in the league of the kind of bridges we are talking about that handle the large ocean going ships.

I would hope they wouldn't take the shoulder.  Those shoulders are needed - a major problem with the old bridge (and until they finish the new ones) is disabled vehicles/accidents blocking travel lanes and causing multi-hour delays because there's nowhere to pull over.  The project site doesn't specify where any future rail would go, just that the bridge has the "structural capacity" for it.
It also notes dedicated bus lanes, but whether those are shared with shoulders or not isn't specified, and both are implied in various parts of the FAQ.  If not, one could possibly add rail there.

Building the third span utilizing the existing towers for the rail lines is obviously the ideal, but expensive.  When "push comes to shove" most agencies would be tempted to use what is already built.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #118 on: August 30, 2018, 05:42:34 PM »

Wasn't the idea for the new Tappan Zee to put the rail line underneath the vehicle deck?  I recall reading that being the case, but can't find it now.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #119 on: August 30, 2018, 07:10:03 PM »

When it had 6 lanes it had to be a long while back.  As far as I remember, when I lived there anyway, it was always 4 lanes from Exit 14 to 14C and the free part to the Holland Tunnel ( Jersey Avenue).  However, it was not until either right before I moved to FL in 1990 or after I moved here to FL and visited home, I noticed that there was full shoulders which struck me odd as most bridges of that type feature none usually.
I am guessing it was once 3/3 and then dropped to 2/2  at 14A at one time.  Though even the Passaic River Eastern Spur and Hackensack River Eastern Spur were originally 2/2 with the piers underneath the structure to show that.  When they did the work on it I remember it was long after the Western Spur opened as well.  So it is odd that the extension had one more travel lane each way than the mainline it stems from as originally even the 3/3/3/3 were at 2/2 when the Turnpike first opened.

However, stranger things on roads have happened.

The Newark Bay Bridge and Hudson County extension went from 3/3 to 2/2 with shoulders in 1960 per NJTP Annual Report.

The two major bridges on the eastern spur were originally 3/3 with no shoulders, and then widened in 1973/74 to include shoulders.  Please see my thread "Old NJ Turnpike Photos" for evidence...
They did what FDOT did on the I-4 bridge over CR 532 in Osceola County, FL.  It was 2/2 no shoulders, but two different overpasses due to the wide median there.  Then if you go underneath, you see the two straight piers next to the original capped piers of the original two lanes.  Now there is another inside pier that is T shaped to allow for the current third lane to the highway as I-4 was widened to 3/3 back in 2000 or so.  Of course now it will be widened again in the Beyond the Ultimate Project which will most likely replace all those bridges as a DDI is planned for there in addition to FDOT lately wasting money in many places and gong for full replacement just to add another lane or two to it.  However the DDI would not work under the current structure as I will admit that interchange does need one badly due to many left turns taking place at on and off peak hours.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #120 on: August 30, 2018, 09:05:07 PM »

Wasn't the idea for the new Tappan Zee to put the rail line underneath the vehicle deck?  I recall reading that being the case, but can't find it now.

I recall reading that somewhere too, but no idea where, or when.  Given the way the bridge looks, I'm not sure where it would fit, unless it would be dangling from the supports somehow.  There certainly isn't anything for a second deck to rest on with what's there now or the renderings of the finished project (this looks like the one I have in my cubicle).
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #121 on: August 31, 2018, 12:31:44 AM »

Wasn't the idea for the new Tappan Zee to put the rail line underneath the vehicle deck?  I recall reading that being the case, but can't find it now.

My understanding is that the rail would go between the two bridges, with a connecting concrete beam going across between each set of piers to tie the two structures together. The extra width on each deck is for a bus lane - once that is added, they will have normal shoulders instead of giant left shoulders.

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #122 on: September 05, 2018, 11:45:25 AM »

I keep thinking this thread should've had a poll asking whether or not anyone here is afraid to drive on the bridge. Last night I watched that old YouTube video from Inside Edition on how it's supposedly the scariest bridge in America.

You people know the stories of the few times I've driven on this bridge, right? How the first time I tried it, I was more afraid of being pulled over by the cops on my way to crossing the bridge rather than the bridge itself?



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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #123 on: September 05, 2018, 01:35:22 PM »

I keep thinking this thread should've had a poll asking whether or not anyone here is afraid to drive on the bridge. Last night I watched that old YouTube video from Inside Edition on how it's supposedly the scariest bridge in America.

You people know the stories of the few times I've driven on this bridge, right? How the first time I tried it, I was more afraid of being pulled over by the cops on my way to crossing the bridge rather than the bridge itself?

IMO, the thing that makes some drivers think it is a "scary" bridge is that when they approach the toll plaza (eastbound only on the Western Shore at Sandy Point) the size of the both spans is very vividly on display, and some people that might not be bothered by crossing similar large bridges (George Washington Bridge, Verrazano Narrows, Delaware Memorial, Golden Gate and others) are unnerved by what they see.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #124 on: September 05, 2018, 01:45:29 PM »

I keep thinking this thread should've had a poll asking whether or not anyone here is afraid to drive on the bridge. Last night I watched that old YouTube video from Inside Edition on how it's supposedly the scariest bridge in America.

You people know the stories of the few times I've driven on this bridge, right? How the first time I tried it, I was more afraid of being pulled over by the cops on my way to crossing the bridge rather than the bridge itself?

IMO, the thing that makes some drivers think it is a "scary" bridge is that when they approach the toll plaza (eastbound only on the Western Shore at Sandy Point) the size of the both spans is very vividly on display, and some people that might not be bothered by crossing similar large bridges (George Washington Bridge, Verrazano Narrows, Delaware Memorial, Golden Gate and others) are unnerved by what they see.

Some people also don't like driving in the lane next to the edge of the bridge. On the 2 lane bridge, they have no option.  On the other bridges mentioned, there's 4+ lanes. 

I recall a story my mom said many years ago when she worked in a school.   The Principal was riding along in a school bus on a field trip and was afraid of heights.  He directed the bus driver to drive in the closed middle lane of the Commodore Barry Bridge (before it had the zipper barrier).  The bus subsequently was stopped by the police and the driver issued a ticket.
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