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Author Topic: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange  (Read 344229 times)

PHLBOS

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2014, 07:07:51 PM »

Instead of rerouting the current I-95 segment as I-195, they should make it I-395 from the new interchange, across the Delaware River then to the NJ 29/I-295/195 interchange.
There's speculation that such a redesignation is likely to happen as noted in a previous post (reposted below):

However, I've read that the "I-195" depicted here may actually become I-395 instead.

Such a change would reduce the number of interchange & mile marker renumbering on the Jersey side.
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Roadrunner75

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2014, 08:33:22 PM »

I keep hearing extension of 195 and now possibly 395.  What's wrong with it simply being 295, looping back around into PA and ending at 276/95? There's no need for a new 3di to further confuse people, and we don't need to change numbers along a single mainline (at 195/NJ29).  It's fine for it to end in a beltway of sorts and connect back into its parent like any other even 3di.

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Stratuscaster

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2014, 09:34:30 PM »

Because then you'll be be traveling south on NORTH I-295. Or vice versa.

Leave it I-195 and it's east/west, which still works with much less confusion.
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hbelkins

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2014, 09:42:28 PM »

Because then you'll be be traveling south on NORTH I-295. Or vice versa.

That doesn't seem to be an issue with any other loops or partial loops. Why would it be an issue here? It could change from N/S to E/W and that would be OK, or it could change back to S/N.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2014, 10:05:59 PM »

Because then you'll be be traveling south on NORTH I-295. Or vice versa.

That doesn't seem to be an issue with any other loops or partial loops. Why would it be an issue here? It could change from N/S to E/W and that would be OK, or it could change back to S/N.

Eh, I would't say it's not an issue. Unless you can somehow prove that no one has ever gone more than halfway around a loop.

The issue with renumbering 95/295 as 195 isn't so much the renumbered stretch, but the needless renumbering of existing 195.
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Roadrunner75

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2014, 11:31:28 PM »

Because then you'll be be traveling south on NORTH I-295. Or vice versa.
That doesn't seem to be an issue with any other loops or partial loops. Why would it be an issue here? It could change from N/S to E/W and that would be OK, or it could change back to S/N.
Eh, I would't say it's not an issue. Unless you can somehow prove that no one has ever gone more than halfway around a loop.
The issue with renumbering 95/295 as 195 isn't so much the renumbered stretch, but the needless renumbering of existing 195.
You would be trading one bit of confusion for another with any option, so thus I'll go with the cheapest - leave 195 alone, continue 295 exit numbering north in NJ to the bridge, and the PA side has to be resigned and exits renumbered anyway no matter what number it becomes.  I don't think the north to south thing is a big deal - it's mostly locals (especially since through traffic can now stay on 95), and it will function like a beltway.  Note that it's not really any different from what already exists today at the US-1 interchange:  295 N already becomes 95 S and vice versa - see here:
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=40.280397,-74.691992&spn=0.000004,0.00327&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.280398,-74.692504&panoid=05hFTG_My5j3tAWqTi3V9w&cbp=12,289.82,,0,-0.96
We're just moving this signage a little further along to the bridge, and changing 95 to 295.

I would say the 195 option has some merit, but the exit renumbering in NJ to me is far worse than 'North-to-South' on 295.  Also, I don't like mainlines of an interstate numbered route forced through a loop ramp and/or single lanes, for which you will get both at 195/295/29.
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hbelkins

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2014, 11:32:47 AM »

Because then you'll be be traveling south on NORTH I-295. Or vice versa.

That doesn't seem to be an issue with any other loops or partial loops. Why would it be an issue here? It could change from N/S to E/W and that would be OK, or it could change back to S/N.

Eh, I would't say it's not an issue. Unless you can somehow prove that no one has ever gone more than halfway around a loop.

The issue with renumbering 95/295 as 195 isn't so much the renumbered stretch, but the needless renumbering of existing 195.

Where is existing 195 going to be renumbered? It currently ends at 295; under this plan 295 is going to be terminated at that exit and the remainder of 295 and then 95 beyond US 1 are going to be renumbered. Unless I missed something.
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bzakharin

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2014, 11:50:12 AM »

Because then you'll be be traveling south on NORTH I-295. Or vice versa.

That doesn't seem to be an issue with any other loops or partial loops. Why would it be an issue here? It could change from N/S to E/W and that would be OK, or it could change back to S/N.

Eh, I would't say it's not an issue. Unless you can somehow prove that no one has ever gone more than halfway around a loop.

The issue with renumbering 95/295 as 195 isn't so much the renumbered stretch, but the needless renumbering of existing 195.

Where is existing 195 going to be renumbered? It currently ends at 295; under this plan 295 is going to be terminated at that exit and the remainder of 295 and then 95 beyond US 1 are going to be renumbered. Unless I missed something.
Since I-295 will be renumbered to I-195 north of where it interchanges with I-195 now, the mileage will start at the state line and all existing exits on I-195 will have to be increased by about 16
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vdeane

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2014, 12:56:11 PM »

Let's think of it this way: It's NJ's fault the Somerset Freeway wasn't built.  The least they can do is renumber a road.  There's already plenty of resentment here and probably elsewhere that PA needs to pay for an interchange to fix NJ's problem so that would even it out a bit.

If I-195 is off the table, I prefer I-295 to I-395.  IMO flipping direction at the border (or for more fun, have PA put the directions backwards!) is preferable to having I-195, I-295, and I-395 end at each other due to lazyness.

and the PA side has to be resigned and exits renumbered anyway no matter what number it becomes.
Not if PennDOT pulls an I-276 and has the mileage and exit numbering continue from where I-95 splits off.
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swbrotha100

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2014, 01:04:16 PM »

Whatever I-x95 is used in the renumbering, I don't think it's a huge deal if the exits don't get changed right away, if at all.
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Roadrunner75

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2014, 01:51:20 PM »

and the PA side has to be resigned and exits renumbered anyway no matter what number it becomes.
Not if PennDOT pulls an I-276 and has the mileage and exit numbering continue from where I-95 splits off.
That sounds fine too - if they just resigned it as 295 north of the 276/95 interchange but left the mileage and exit numbers the same to the bridge.  They would just be resigning the route as 295 on the PA side, and then on the NJ side just resigning the first few miles as 295 and renumbering the mileage and handful of exits as a continuation from the south.  Problem solved with the 'budget' option.

On a side note, I seem to remember the 295/95 switch happening a few miles further north of US-1 at one time - I would assume it was signed right where the Somerset Freeway was to split off - and later being moved south to US-1.  Too bad they didn't just leave well enough alone.


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MikeSantNY78

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2014, 02:03:41 PM »

...preferable to having I-195, I-295, and I-395 end at each other due to lazyness.

You mean like this?
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&output=classic&dg=oo
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signalman

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2014, 02:15:27 PM »

You mean like this?
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&output=classic&dg=oo
There's noting there.  Just the "home page" of classis Google Maps.

PHLBOS

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2014, 02:43:21 PM »

On a side note, I seem to remember the 295/95 switch happening a few miles further north of US-1 at one time - I would assume it was signed right where the Somerset Freeway was to split off - and later being moved south to US-1.
That is correct.  Prior to sometime during the mid-1990s; the I-95/295 hand-off was indeed at its original (Somerset Freeway) location.  As a point of reference, Exits 5B-A off I-95 was originally Exits 71A-B off I-295.

Additionally & according to NJDOT's Straight-Line Highway Diagram Book (1985 Edition); the plan for that then 5-mile stretch of I-95 had a supplemental Future I-295 listing with revised exit numbers to the PA State Line listed alongside the current exit numbers.  So at least NJ had plans to originally redesignate I-95 in that area as I-295.

Given that the AASHTO decision to redesignate I-95/295 as a future extension of I-195 only dates back to 2007; it's not fully known why NJDOT changed the I-295 exit numbers between NJ 31 (Exit 4 off I-95) and US 1 over a decade earlier.  It's worth noting that the exit number switch predated the I-195/295/NJ 29 interchange (Exit 60) being fully completed.  For a few years, I-295 South did a left swing onto I-195 East and I-195 West did a right swing onto I-295 North (the latter movement was largely left unaltered when the full interchange was eventually built); so, to a degree, one was indeed had I-195/295 as a continuous highway short-term.

The reasoning behind AASHTO's 2007 change was likely due to having I-295 in NJ run north-south and the PA part (current I-95) running south-north.  While there are examples of 3dis changing directions at state lines (and even in-state along full-loop beltways); those changes typically involve a north-south becoming an east-west road first prior to changing to a reverse south-north route.  Such was not the case in the NJ I-95/295 scenario; plus the NJ-stretch of highway in question was more east-west rather than north-south if one uses the PA State line and the I-195/295/NJ 29 interchange as reference points.

Another issue with I-95/295 becoming an extension of I-195 likely stems from the fact that if such was adopted; one would have the through I-195 Eastbound movements go through a single-lane cloverleaf ramp at the I-295/NJ 29 interchange.  Rather than undergo an unnecessary (& costly) redesign to a completely good interchange to eliminate a through-route going through a cloverleaf ramp; the rumored proposal to redesignate I-95/295 as I-395 (I would've preferred that I-695 be used instead for such a purpose but nonetheless) makes more logical sense and only involves changing the exit numbers/mile markers along I-295 between US 1 and & I-195/NJ 29 on the Jersey side.

and the PA side has to be resigned and exits renumbered anyway no matter what number it becomes.
Not if PennDOT pulls an I-276 and has the mileage and exit numbering continue from where I-95 splits off.
Since the stretch of I-95 north of the future interchange is clearly a north-south route (and most people know it as such) and I-276 is an east-west route; such a change wouldn't likely fly.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 03:04:07 PM by PHLBOS »
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bzakharin

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2014, 02:53:37 PM »

Not if PennDOT pulls an I-276 and has the mileage and exit numbering continue from where I-95 splits off.
But I-276 uses the PA Turnpike's exit numbering/mileage, so it's the same road, whereas I-195 (or whatever it ends up being) is not part of a larger entity that includes I-95 (at least conceptually; it may technically be the "through" route), so there is no logical reason not to reset the mileage and exit numbers.
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akotchi

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2014, 02:55:44 PM »

The "extension" of I-95 in Mercer County occurred in 1993, and was done to avoid having I-95 and I-295 begin/end at a random place between interchanges.  U.S. 1 was the nearest major interchange, and represented a logical point to distinguish the north-south general trajectories of I-95 (yes, the easterly few miles are east-west) on the west side of Trenton and I-295 on the east side of Trenton.

I would continue that philosophy and only renumber the I-95 portion as I-x95.  I-195 and I-295 would remain as they are now.
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NE2

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2014, 03:00:26 PM »

The "extension" of I-95 in Mercer County occurred in 1993, and was done to avoid having I-95 and I-295 begin/end at a random place between interchanges.  U.S. 1 was the nearest major interchange, and represented a logical point to distinguish the north-south general trajectories of I-95 (yes, the easterly few miles are east-west) on the west side of Trenton and I-295 on the east side of Trenton.

I would continue that philosophy and only renumber the I-95 portion as I-x95.  I-195 and I-295 would remain as they are now.
There is precedent, with I-280 becoming I-680 at US 101.
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hubcity

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2014, 03:29:09 PM »

When they elect me emperor, it'd work this way:

- I-695 starts and continues north from the Turnpike/95 intersection. It's signed east/west.
- I-695 continues across the state line, past US 1 and NJ 33, ending at the current 195/295 intersection. East/west signing continues to there.
- I-195 continues west from there via current NJ 29, thence across a newly-constructed bridge over untold numbers of environmentally sensitive wetlands, and comes to an end at I-695, so you'd have to renumber I-195 exits anyway.

I'll get my coat.
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hbelkins

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2014, 03:57:54 PM »

Since I-295 will be renumbered to I-195 north of where it interchanges with I-195 now, the mileage will start at the state line and all existing exits on I-195 will have to be increased by about 16

Oh, you mean renumbering the exits and not the road itself.

Didn't seem to be an issue with I-69 in Indiana.
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BrianP

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2014, 03:59:11 PM »

I would continue that philosophy and only renumber the I-95 portion as I-x95.  I-195 and I-295 would remain as they are now.
Seconded. And it should be a n/s route since it looks like it covers more distance north/south than east/west.
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SteveG1988

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2014, 04:20:36 PM »

Here is a question, how much traffic would be diverted from the Scudders Falls bridge by this?
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NE2

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2014, 05:23:53 PM »

Here is a question, how much traffic would be diverted from the Scudders Falls bridge by this?
Probably not much. Maybe some people going from northeast of Philly to the New Brunswick area that currently take I-95 to US 1 will switch, but otherwise there's not much overlap.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2014, 05:53:01 PM »

Appearently we've all forgotten that 95 was never completed thru DC, and that has become Maryland & Virginia's problem to fix.

While there are numerous roads that have been remembered, it's not an easy or preferred solution when there are other options available. No doubt if you were faced with spending thousands of dollars for your business to update information, you wouldn't be happy. Think of Six Flags for example:  every single advertisement has their directions on it. They have an advertisement budget in the millions. And they had nothing to do with 95 getting cancelled either.  Regardless, Jersey isn't a person anyway, and the people responsible for the cancellation aren't responsible for anything regarding the route numbering today. So it's a bit silly to say make everyone's life inconvenienced because of a decision made in the 80's.
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PHLBOS

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2014, 06:18:21 PM »

Appearently we've all forgotten that 95 was never completed thru DC, and that has become Maryland & Virginia's problem to fix.
I don't believe anyone here has forgotten such; however, unlike the I-95 gap in NJ, the I-95 connections to the Beltway (I-495) already existed when the decision not to build I-95 in DC (and the abutting communities in MD as well) was made.  Such made the route changes/redesignations come sooner rather than later.

Additionally, even if I-95 in DC had been fully built as planned; the I-95/395/495 interchange in VA still would have needed to be eventually overhauled/redone.
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hbelkins

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Re: I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2014, 09:02:25 PM »

Appearently we've all forgotten that 95 was never completed thru DC, and that has become Maryland & Virginia's problem to fix.

But you already had I-495 so it was easy to route I-95 over it.

Just like it would have been far too simple to route I-95 across the Del Mem Br and up the Turnpike all the way to the G Washington Br.
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