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Author Topic: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware  (Read 54819 times)

froggie

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #275 on: December 12, 2018, 08:03:21 PM »

Exactly.  Sprjus4 was only looking at the original construction cost and didn't check maintenance and upkeep, repavings (I know of at least one since construction), expansion of the toll plaza, or interest on the original bonds.

Furthermore, Slide 13 on the presentation Mapmikey posted says that the Peak tolls on VA-168 (the current $8 toll) only applies on weekends between mid-May and mid-September...specifically the weekend before Memorial Day weekend to the weekend after Labor Day weekend.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #276 on: December 12, 2018, 08:11:51 PM »

Exactly.  Sprjus4 was only looking at the original construction cost and didn't check maintenance and upkeep, repavings (I know of at least one since construction), expansion of the toll plaza, or interest on the original bonds.

Furthermore, Slide 13 on the presentation Mapmikey posted says that the Peak tolls on VA-168 (the current $8 toll) only applies on weekends between mid-May and mid-September...specifically the weekend before Memorial Day weekend to the weekend after Labor Day weekend.
The highway has only been paved once since its opening, and the toll plaza expansion cost under $5 million. As I've stated above, by 2023, the expressway would've already collected over $80 million in additional revenue. That is plenty enough to fully pay it off, or if not the rest can be picked up by local or state funding. If either aren't options, then the city needs to plan some improvements to the shunpiking route, because currently, as I stated above, there are a lot of traffic issues with the existing route. It would be wrong doing just to leave the daily backups to stay for 32 more years, and to leave the expressway empty.

As for peak tolls, I know it's only in summer months. I guess I forgot to mention it above, but it's still an absurd rate. Many tourists have started using Battlefield Blvd since the tolls went up to $8 to avoid the high costs. The highest it should be is maybe $5 or 6.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #277 on: December 12, 2018, 08:27:36 PM »

I don't think this data takes into account ANY expenses.  See slide 12 at http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/chesapeake_expressway/Oct+2013+Traffic+$!26+Revenue+Report.pdf
Also the amount to repay is not $125M but also whatever debt service came with it...
So far, they've exceeded $30 million in additional revenue that beats the project costs. By 2023, they would've exceeded $200 million in collection, over $80 million total over project costs. That amount of money is more than enough to fully complete repayments, and if it isn't, the rest can be paid off by local or state funding.
One incentive to pay the road off with public funding for the rest, is that the shunpiking route, Battlefield Blvd, is a bottleneck. The costs to repay the rest with public funding would not be significantly high, whatever that number may be, compared to the cost of building the expressway to begin with. If the expressway had its tolls removed, all thru traffic would stay on the highway, instead of backing up 2 miles daily because of one traffic signal. 21,000 VPD currently use Battlefield Blvd while a little under 10,000 VPD use the expressway.
We've had our time with the toll road, it's essentially paid off now, and we need to remove the tolls, fix all of the traffic issues, instead of leaving them for another 32 years.

So if the current average toll is $2 (local discounts are only 75 cents, so that may be high) --
10,000 x 2 x 365 = $7.3 million for current year.  Much lower than the list that you posted.

Debt service is high -- I would have to see the interest rate on the bonds, but similar to the mortgage on a house, the total principal plus interest could be over twice the cost to build the highway.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #278 on: December 12, 2018, 08:30:57 PM »

Exactly.  Sprjus4 was only looking at the original construction cost and didn't check maintenance and upkeep, repavings (I know of at least one since construction), expansion of the toll plaza, or interest on the original bonds.

Furthermore, Slide 13 on the presentation Mapmikey posted says that the Peak tolls on VA-168 (the current $8 toll) only applies on weekends between mid-May and mid-September...specifically the weekend before Memorial Day weekend to the weekend after Labor Day weekend.
The highway has only been paved once since its opening, and the toll plaza expansion cost under $5 million. As I've stated above, by 2023, the expressway would've already collected over $80 million in additional revenue. That is plenty enough to fully pay it off, or if not the rest can be picked up by local or state funding. If either aren't options, then the city needs to plan some improvements to the shunpiking route, because currently, as I stated above, there are a lot of traffic issues with the existing route. It would be wrong doing just to leave the daily backups to stay for 32 more years, and to leave the expressway empty.

The point is that you weren't looking at ANY of those expenses or debt service or interest when you made your claim.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #279 on: December 12, 2018, 08:37:51 PM »

I don't think this data takes into account ANY expenses.  See slide 12 at http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/chesapeake_expressway/Oct+2013+Traffic+$!26+Revenue+Report.pdf
Also the amount to repay is not $125M but also whatever debt service came with it...
So far, they've exceeded $30 million in additional revenue that beats the project costs. By 2023, they would've exceeded $200 million in collection, over $80 million total over project costs. That amount of money is more than enough to fully complete repayments, and if it isn't, the rest can be paid off by local or state funding.
One incentive to pay the road off with public funding for the rest, is that the shunpiking route, Battlefield Blvd, is a bottleneck. The costs to repay the rest with public funding would not be significantly high, whatever that number may be, compared to the cost of building the expressway to begin with. If the expressway had its tolls removed, all thru traffic would stay on the highway, instead of backing up 2 miles daily because of one traffic signal. 21,000 VPD currently use Battlefield Blvd while a little under 10,000 VPD use the expressway.
We've had our time with the toll road, it's essentially paid off now, and we need to remove the tolls, fix all of the traffic issues, instead of leaving them for another 32 years.

So if the current average toll is $2 (local discounts are only 75 cents, so that may be high) --
10,000 x 2 x 365 = $7.3 million for current year.  Much lower than the list that you posted.

Debt service is high -- I would have to see the interest rate on the bonds, but similar to the mortgage on a house, the total principal plus interest could be over twice the cost to build the highway.
The number I'm giving comes directly from City of Chesapeake reports. It makes around $11-12 million per year. One of the factors is the summer peak tolls, those drive in lots of money, approx. $2 million per month in June, July, and August. Keep in mind traffic volumes increase during the summer from 10,000. I don't know what the numbers are for fully paying off the expressway, it would be nice if that information was made public or easily accessible, like these numbers are.

I emailed the Toll Advisory Committee of the Expressway a few months ago regarding traffic issues, and the toll repayments, and was told I would receive a follow up "a few weeks later", however it's been almost 4 months, and I've heard nothing back.
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #280 on: December 12, 2018, 08:58:57 PM »

So if the current average toll is $2 (local discounts are only 75 cents, so that may be high) --
10,000 x 2 x 365 = $7.3 million for current year.  Much lower than the list that you posted.
Debt service is high -- I would have to see the interest rate on the bonds, but similar to the mortgage on a house, the total principal plus interest could be over twice the cost to build the highway.
The number I'm giving comes directly from City of Chesapeake reports. It makes around $11-12 million per year. One of the factors is the summer peak tolls, those drive in lots of money, approx. $2 million per month in June, July, and August. Keep in mind traffic volumes increase during the summer from 10,000. I don't know what the numbers are for fully paying off the expressway, it would be nice if that information was made public or easily accessible, like these numbers are.

Yes, but you gave the average daily traffic figure, IOW the 365 days averaged out.

I emailed the Toll Advisory Committee of the Expressway a few months ago regarding traffic issues, and the toll repayments, and was told I would receive a follow up "a few weeks later", however it's been almost 4 months, and I've heard nothing back.

Contact them again, and if you don't get an answer, again and again on about a 2 or 3-week schedule.  Sometimes you have to be persistent with a government agency.  Use the phone and try to contact a subject matter expert.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 09:03:45 PM by Beltway »
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #281 on: December 12, 2018, 08:59:32 PM »

IMO the "soak everyone crossing the state line" toll scheme the DE uses should be illegal (things like major bridges excepted).  I like how the Thruway does it - allow everyone to enter the state and exit without charge if they decide they don't want to pay.

So if someone drives it from PA to NYC, and don't want to pay the toll, that they will let them get away with that?
I specifically excluded major bridges (and meant to include tunnels; I've since edited my post) for exactly this scenario.  In that case, the toll is for the crossing, not just to "soak the strangers".  That's why I referenced the Thruway.  Entering from PA heading to Buffalo, you pass exit 61, and only THEN do you get to the toll barrier at the end of the ticket system.  It's the same crossing from MA, leaving NYC, and when crossing from NJ on I-287.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 09:01:52 PM by vdeane »
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #282 on: December 12, 2018, 09:02:40 PM »

So if someone drives it from PA to NYC, and don't want to pay the toll, that they will let them get away with that?
I specifically excluded major bridges (and meant to include tunnels; I've since edited my post) for exactly this scenario.  In that case, the toll is for the crossing, not just to "soak the strangers".  That's why I referenced the Thruway.  Entering from PA heading to Buffalo, you pass exit 61, and only THEN do you get to the toll barrier at the end of the ticket system.  It's the same crossing from MA, leaving NYC, and when crossing from NJ on I-287.

OK, how about PA to Albany?
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #283 on: December 12, 2018, 09:06:58 PM »

So if someone drives it from PA to NYC, and don't want to pay the toll, that they will let them get away with that?
I specifically excluded major bridges (and meant to include tunnels; I've since edited my post) for exactly this scenario.  In that case, the toll is for the crossing, not just to "soak the strangers".  That's why I referenced the Thruway.  Entering from PA heading to Buffalo, you pass exit 61, and only THEN do you get to the toll barrier at the end of the ticket system.  It's the same crossing from MA, leaving NYC, and when crossing from NJ on I-287.

OK, how about PA to Albany?
Easy enough: if coming from Erie, exit at exit 61 and take US 20 or NY 5; if entering from anywhere else, you were already in NY for a while before encountering the Thruway.  The Thruway also doesn't weight tolls towards the end of the system like Delaware does, either.  $3 to go the 2 miles from MD to the first interchange and then $1 to go the entire rest of US 301 (a lot more than 2 miles) is complete BS.
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Mapmikey

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #284 on: December 12, 2018, 09:10:23 PM »

I don't think this data takes into account ANY expenses.  See slide 12 at http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/chesapeake_expressway/Oct+2013+Traffic+$!26+Revenue+Report.pdf
Also the amount to repay is not $125M but also whatever debt service came with it...
So far, they've exceeded $30 million in additional revenue that beats the project costs. By 2023, they would've exceeded $200 million in collection, over $80 million total over project costs. That amount of money is more than enough to fully complete repayments, and if it isn't, the rest can be paid off by local or state funding.
One incentive to pay the road off with public funding for the rest, is that the shunpiking route, Battlefield Blvd, is a bottleneck. The costs to repay the rest with public funding would not be significantly high, whatever that number may be, compared to the cost of building the expressway to begin with. If the expressway had its tolls removed, all thru traffic would stay on the highway, instead of backing up 2 miles daily because of one traffic signal. 21,000 VPD currently use Battlefield Blvd while a little under 10,000 VPD use the expressway.
We've had our time with the toll road, it's essentially paid off now, and we need to remove the tolls, fix all of the traffic issues, instead of leaving them for another 32 years.

So if the current average toll is $2 (local discounts are only 75 cents, so that may be high) --
10,000 x 2 x 365 = $7.3 million for current year.  Much lower than the list that you posted.

Debt service is high -- I would have to see the interest rate on the bonds, but similar to the mortgage on a house, the total principal plus interest could be over twice the cost to build the highway.
The number I'm giving comes directly from City of Chesapeake reports. It makes around $11-12 million per year. One of the factors is the summer peak tolls, those drive in lots of money, approx. $2 million per month in June, July, and August. Keep in mind traffic volumes increase during the summer from 10,000. I don't know what the numbers are for fully paying off the expressway, it would be nice if that information was made public or easily accessible, like these numbers are.

I emailed the Toll Advisory Committee of the Expressway a few months ago regarding traffic issues, and the toll repayments, and was told I would receive a follow up "a few weeks later", however it's been almost 4 months, and I've heard nothing back.


Again they do not NET $11-12M per year.  Those reports only disclose the amount of $ they collected in tolls and not how much has to be spent on running the toll system, maintaining the road, etc. which leaves them a smaller amount to contribute to principle + debt, plus I assume they are allowed to have some profit for their trouble.

Sure it would be great if the City had tens of millions available to buy out the road but I'm guessing they do not...
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #285 on: December 12, 2018, 09:49:11 PM »

Again they do not NET $11-12M per year.  Those reports only disclose the amount of $ they collected in tolls and not how much has to be spent on running the toll system, maintaining the road, etc. which leaves them a smaller amount to contribute to principle + debt, plus I assume they are allowed to have some profit for their trouble.
Sure it would be great if the City had tens of millions available to buy out the road but I'm guessing they do not...

The Chesapeake Expressway is no longer a stand-alone toll facility.  The $430 million Dominion Boulevard project completed in 2017 is now part of a pooled-funding toll system called the Chesapeake Transportation System.

"The toll rate increased on May 1, 2011 for the first time since the opening of the Expressway.  The City routinely reviews and analyzes the Optimum Toll Rate to meet the requirements of the Bond Indenture.  The toll increase is necessary in order to meet financial obligations.  The Chesapeake Expressway is part of the Chesapeake Transportation System along with the improved Dominion Boulevard corridor.  On July 10, 2012, the Chesapeake City Council approved the initial toll schedule for the Chesapeake Transportation System.

http://www.chesapeakeexpressway.com/FAQs.htm
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #286 on: December 12, 2018, 11:04:03 PM »

Again they do not NET $11-12M per year.  Those reports only disclose the amount of $ they collected in tolls and not how much has to be spent on running the toll system, maintaining the road, etc. which leaves them a smaller amount to contribute to principle + debt, plus I assume they are allowed to have some profit for their trouble.
Sure it would be great if the City had tens of millions available to buy out the road but I'm guessing they do not...

The Chesapeake Expressway is no longer a stand-alone toll facility.  The $430 million Dominion Boulevard project completed in 2017 is now part of a pooled-funding toll system called the Chesapeake Transportation System.

"The toll rate increased on May 1, 2011 for the first time since the opening of the Expressway.  The City routinely reviews and analyzes the Optimum Toll Rate to meet the requirements of the Bond Indenture.  The toll increase is necessary in order to meet financial obligations.  The Chesapeake Expressway is part of the Chesapeake Transportation System along with the improved Dominion Boulevard corridor.  On July 10, 2012, the Chesapeake City Council approved the initial toll schedule for the Chesapeake Transportation System.

http://www.chesapeakeexpressway.com/FAQs.htm
Yeah, I'm aware of that. This is where it's interesting though - if you take the current revenue amounts from both Dominion and Chesapeake Expressway (approx $10-11 million each per year), combined with the $150 million already collected on the Expressway, it adds up to approx $820 million collected between 2001 and 2051 on both facilities. That also doesn't factor yearly increases on Dominion, which would easily bring that number to $840 million or more.

Both projects combined (construction only) cost $461 million total. Dominion Blvd cost $345 million, and Expressway was $116 million. With these numbers, that would mean maintenance, operations, repayments, etc. would cost $360 million or more. That's where I feel like some unnecessary revenue is being generated, and that it really wouldn't cost that much. Once both projects are fully paid off, the tolls should be removed. I think the city is in the wrong by setting a "fixed" date, so if it's paid off before then, they get to bring in extra cash until 2051. And even then, it's up to council to remove it - they could opt to keep both as a cash cow for the city. It should be automatically removed as soon as both projects and additional costs are paid off.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #287 on: December 12, 2018, 11:08:50 PM »

I don't think this data takes into account ANY expenses.  See slide 12 at http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/chesapeake_expressway/Oct+2013+Traffic+$!26+Revenue+Report.pdf
Also the amount to repay is not $125M but also whatever debt service came with it...
So far, they've exceeded $30 million in additional revenue that beats the project costs. By 2023, they would've exceeded $200 million in collection, over $80 million total over project costs. That amount of money is more than enough to fully complete repayments, and if it isn't, the rest can be paid off by local or state funding.
One incentive to pay the road off with public funding for the rest, is that the shunpiking route, Battlefield Blvd, is a bottleneck. The costs to repay the rest with public funding would not be significantly high, whatever that number may be, compared to the cost of building the expressway to begin with. If the expressway had its tolls removed, all thru traffic would stay on the highway, instead of backing up 2 miles daily because of one traffic signal. 21,000 VPD currently use Battlefield Blvd while a little under 10,000 VPD use the expressway.
We've had our time with the toll road, it's essentially paid off now, and we need to remove the tolls, fix all of the traffic issues, instead of leaving them for another 32 years.

So if the current average toll is $2 (local discounts are only 75 cents, so that may be high) --
10,000 x 2 x 365 = $7.3 million for current year.  Much lower than the list that you posted.

Debt service is high -- I would have to see the interest rate on the bonds, but similar to the mortgage on a house, the total principal plus interest could be over twice the cost to build the highway.
The number I'm giving comes directly from City of Chesapeake reports. It makes around $11-12 million per year. One of the factors is the summer peak tolls, those drive in lots of money, approx. $2 million per month in June, July, and August. Keep in mind traffic volumes increase during the summer from 10,000. I don't know what the numbers are for fully paying off the expressway, it would be nice if that information was made public or easily accessible, like these numbers are.

I emailed the Toll Advisory Committee of the Expressway a few months ago regarding traffic issues, and the toll repayments, and was told I would receive a follow up "a few weeks later", however it's been almost 4 months, and I've heard nothing back.


Again they do not NET $11-12M per year.  Those reports only disclose the amount of $ they collected in tolls and not how much has to be spent on running the toll system, maintaining the road, etc. which leaves them a smaller amount to contribute to principle + debt, plus I assume they are allowed to have some profit for their trouble.

Sure it would be great if the City had tens of millions available to buy out the road but I'm guessing they do not...
All of the money collected by the tolls go into repaying bonds and loans, and maintenance, etc. None of the money is not used. My questioning is why it would cost over $360 million in maintenance and costs in the end.

IMO, the bonds should've only paid for construction costs, and maintenance should be dealt with like any other highway - through public funding. Tolls should only be an alternative way to fund the highways construction when traditional funds lack. Maintenance should be a completely separate issue.

But I guess we're stuck with what we have. What I really want to know is what is left to pay off on the Expressway from the money they have as of now.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #288 on: December 12, 2018, 11:49:43 PM »

Yeah, I'm aware of that. This is where it's interesting though - if you take the current revenue amounts from both Dominion and Chesapeake Expressway (approx $10-11 million each per year), combined with the $150 million already collected on the Expressway, it adds up to approx $820 million collected between 2001 and 2051 on both facilities. That also doesn't factor yearly increases on Dominion, which would easily bring that number to $840 million or more.
Both projects combined (construction only) cost $461 million total. Dominion Blvd cost $345 million, and Expressway was $116 million. With these numbers, that would mean maintenance, operations, repayments, etc. would cost $360 million or more. That's where I feel like some unnecessary revenue is being generated, and that it really wouldn't cost that much. Once both projects are fully paid off, the tolls should be removed. I think the city is in the wrong by setting a "fixed" date, so if it's paid off before then, they get to bring in extra cash until 2051. And even then, it's up to council to remove it - they could opt to keep both as a cash cow for the city. It should be automatically removed as soon as both projects and additional costs are paid off.

If the construction-only cost is $461 million total, then find the figures for preliminary engineering, construction engineering, and right-of-way acquisition, that could easily add another 15-20%.

Even assuming those figures, it you do a 30-year amortization at 5% interest, the total cost of the debt service is about 2.5 times the original principal, or about $1.15 billion.  If they are aiming at 2051 then that looks reasonable, and if they are paid off say 5 years earlier then they can entertain removing the tolls or reducing them to a much lower level.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #289 on: December 12, 2018, 11:50:03 PM »

You're missing the point. You can bail at the first exit (and sometimes later) without paying a toll (to the Thruway) at any of the four state line crossings on the Thruway system.

But Delaware could just as easily put the I-95 toll between 896 and 273, and it would actually be harder to bypass than the current location.
... you just take 273 to 4 instead of 896.

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #290 on: December 13, 2018, 06:49:59 AM »

Here is some more potential information on the Chesapeake Expressway (first conceived in 1968!).  Start on pdf page 68 at http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/meetings/minutes_pdf/CTB-12-1996-01.pdf

This document has some information on the financing - http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/chesapeake_expressway/pdf/2010-10-Chesapeake_Expressway_Report.pdf which states that as of 2008 the outstanding principal balance from the 3 loans was still about $90M.

The last part of this document talks about the financing of the Dominion Blvd part and how both facilities are combined to service all their repayment obligations - http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/local_assistance/UCI/July2012/Innovative_Project_Financing_Chesapeake_Presentation_Sorey_7-12-12.pdf
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #291 on: December 13, 2018, 07:20:56 AM »

Here is some more potential information on the Chesapeake Expressway (first conceived in 1968!).  Start on pdf page 68 at http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/meetings/minutes_pdf/CTB-12-1996-01.pdf

Although per my research location approval in 1972 for the Great Bridge Bypass and the Oak Grove Connector, and from the south end of the Great Bridge Bypass to the North Carolina border, the approved concept was for dualization of the existing VA-168 by building a parallel roadway, resulting in a four-lane divided noncontrolled-access highway, and a couple sections would have been realigned.  The relocated limited access highway plan was approved in 1989, for the segment south of the Great Bridge Bypass.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #292 on: December 13, 2018, 05:24:41 PM »

Yeah, I'm aware of that. This is where it's interesting though - if you take the current revenue amounts from both Dominion and Chesapeake Expressway (approx $10-11 million each per year), combined with the $150 million already collected on the Expressway, it adds up to approx $820 million collected between 2001 and 2051 on both facilities. That also doesn't factor yearly increases on Dominion, which would easily bring that number to $840 million or more.
Both projects combined (construction only) cost $461 million total. Dominion Blvd cost $345 million, and Expressway was $116 million. With these numbers, that would mean maintenance, operations, repayments, etc. would cost $360 million or more. That's where I feel like some unnecessary revenue is being generated, and that it really wouldn't cost that much. Once both projects are fully paid off, the tolls should be removed. I think the city is in the wrong by setting a "fixed" date, so if it's paid off before then, they get to bring in extra cash until 2051. And even then, it's up to council to remove it - they could opt to keep both as a cash cow for the city. It should be automatically removed as soon as both projects and additional costs are paid off.


If the construction-only cost is $461 million total, then find the figures for preliminary engineering, construction engineering, and right-of-way acquisition, that could easily add another 15-20%.

Even assuming those figures, it you do a 30-year amortization at 5% interest, the total cost of the debt service is about 2.5 times the original principal, or about $1.15 billion.  If they are aiming at 2051 then that looks reasonable, and if they are paid off say 5 years earlier then they can entertain removing the tolls or reducing them to a much lower level.
Here is some more potential information on the Chesapeake Expressway (first conceived in 1968!).  Start on pdf page 68 at http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/meetings/minutes_pdf/CTB-12-1996-01.pdf

This document has some information on the financing - http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/chesapeake_expressway/pdf/2010-10-Chesapeake_Expressway_Report.pdf which states that as of 2008 the outstanding principal balance from the 3 loans was still about $90M.

The last part of this document talks about the financing of the Dominion Blvd part and how both facilities are combined to service all their repayment obligations - http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/local_assistance/UCI/July2012/Innovative_Project_Financing_Chesapeake_Presentation_Sorey_7-12-12.pdf
I currently do not have information on the Expressway, but as for Dominion Blvd, the city provides a good description of all the funds. (http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/government/city-departments/departments/Public-Works-Department/chesapeake-transportation-system/bridges-dominion-blvd-improvements/project-facts.htm)

For the project alone (which includes R/W acquisition, engineering, construction) it cost $345.2 million. For interest, debt service, and other fees, that only costs the city an additional $34.9 million. They also owe $19.3 million for refinancing of Chesapeake Expressway bonds. In total, the entire package costs $399.4 million.

As for who funded what, state and local funds paid $88.9 million, while bonds and loans paid for the other $310.4 million.

In total, for Dominion Blvd alone, the city owes back $345.3 million (which is similar to the costs of construction alone, thanks to public funding picking up the rest), which is collected in tolls.
---
Assuming Dominion Boulevard' interest and debt service is $34.9 million, the Expressway's should be lower, as the bonds and loans for it was less money.

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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #293 on: December 13, 2018, 08:07:27 PM »

For the project alone (which includes R/W acquisition, engineering, construction) it cost $345.2 million. For interest, debt service, and other fees, that only costs the city an additional $34.9 million. They also owe $19.3 million for refinancing of Chesapeake Expressway bonds. In total, the entire package costs $399.4 million.
As for who funded what, state and local funds paid $88.9 million, while bonds and loans paid for the other $310.4 million.
In total, for Dominion Blvd alone, the city owes back $345.3 million (which is similar to the costs of construction alone, thanks to public funding picking up the rest), which is collected in tolls.

Those are upfront costs of the project funding package.  That does not include the bond interest costs over the next 34 years.  Principal plus interest (need to find the rate but we can assume not less than 5%) will make that at least 2.5 times that of the project funding package.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #294 on: December 13, 2018, 08:17:25 PM »

For the project alone (which includes R/W acquisition, engineering, construction) it cost $345.2 million. For interest, debt service, and other fees, that only costs the city an additional $34.9 million. They also owe $19.3 million for refinancing of Chesapeake Expressway bonds. In total, the entire package costs $399.4 million.
As for who funded what, state and local funds paid $88.9 million, while bonds and loans paid for the other $310.4 million.
In total, for Dominion Blvd alone, the city owes back $345.3 million (which is similar to the costs of construction alone, thanks to public funding picking up the rest), which is collected in tolls.

Those are upfront costs of the project funding package.  That does not include the bond interest costs over the next 34 years.  Principal plus interest (need to find the rate but we can assume not less than 5%) will make that at least 2.5 times that of the project funding package.


Slide 15 at http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/local_assistance/UCI/July2012/Innovative_Project_Financing_Chesapeake_Presentation_Sorey_7-12-12.pdf suggests one of the large loans for the Dominion Blvd project was 3.3%
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #295 on: December 13, 2018, 08:33:03 PM »

Those are upfront costs of the project funding package.  That does not include the bond interest costs over the next 34 years.  Principal plus interest (need to find the rate but we can assume not less than 5%) will make that at least 2.5 times that of the project funding package.
Slide 15 at http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/local_assistance/UCI/July2012/Innovative_Project_Financing_Chesapeake_Presentation_Sorey_7-12-12.pdf suggests one of the large loans for the Dominion Blvd project was 3.3%

That is the VTIB Loan.  We need to find the interest rate for the Senior Toll Revenue Bonds, they are probably higher given that VTIB is a government entity.

At that rate over 34 years the interest will be 67% of the principal.

One million dollar loan would cost a total of $1,671,956.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 08:37:59 PM by Beltway »
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #296 on: December 13, 2018, 10:09:21 PM »

Those are upfront costs of the project funding package.  That does not include the bond interest costs over the next 34 years.  Principal plus interest (need to find the rate but we can assume not less than 5%) will make that at least 2.5 times that of the project funding package.
Slide 15 at http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/local_assistance/UCI/July2012/Innovative_Project_Financing_Chesapeake_Presentation_Sorey_7-12-12.pdf suggests one of the large loans for the Dominion Blvd project was 3.3%

That is the VTIB Loan.  We need to find the interest rate for the Senior Toll Revenue Bonds, they are probably higher given that VTIB is a government entity.

At that rate over 34 years the interest will be 67% of the principal.

One million dollar loan would cost a total of $1,671,956.



The interest rate on the Senior Toll Bonds is 4.599%.  See http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/Dominion/Dominion+Financial+Close+Release.pdf
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #297 on: December 13, 2018, 11:12:01 PM »

The interest rate on the Senior Toll Bonds is 4.599%.  See http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/Dominion/Dominion+Financial+Close+Release.pdf

Good info!!

"The City of Chesapeake closed today on $150.7 million Chesapeake Transportation System (CTS) Senior Toll Road Revenue Bonds and a $152 million subordinate loan provided by the Virginia Transportation Infrastructure Bank (VTIB) to provide funding, together with other federal and state funding sources, for the Dominion Boulevard Improvement Project.
 
The Bonds are secured solely by the net revenues of the CTS and are not backed by the City’s full faith and credit or other resources.  The bonds, rated “BBB” by Standard & Poor’s and Fitch Ratings, were substantially oversubscribed for by investors, resulting in a favorable all-in net interest rate of 4.599%.
 
The $151.9 million VTIB Loan, which bears interest at 3.33%, is secured solely by a subordinate lien on CTS net revenues and is not backed by the City’s full faith and credit or other resources." 
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #298 on: December 13, 2018, 11:23:34 PM »

For the project alone (which includes R/W acquisition, engineering, construction) it cost $345.2 million. For interest, debt service, and other fees, that only costs the city an additional $34.9 million. They also owe $19.3 million for refinancing of Chesapeake Expressway bonds. In total, the entire package costs $399.4 million.
As for who funded what, state and local funds paid $88.9 million, while bonds and loans paid for the other $310.4 million.
In total, for Dominion Blvd alone, the city owes back $345.3 million (which is similar to the costs of construction alone, thanks to public funding picking up the rest), which is collected in tolls.

Those are upfront costs of the project funding package.  That does not include the bond interest costs over the next 34 years.  Principal plus interest (need to find the rate but we can assume not less than 5%) will make that at least 2.5 times that of the project funding package.
Those are upfront costs of the project funding package.  That does not include the bond interest costs over the next 34 years.  Principal plus interest (need to find the rate but we can assume not less than 5%) will make that at least 2.5 times that of the project funding package.
Slide 15 at http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/local_assistance/UCI/July2012/Innovative_Project_Financing_Chesapeake_Presentation_Sorey_7-12-12.pdf suggests one of the large loans for the Dominion Blvd project was 3.3%

That is the VTIB Loan.  We need to find the interest rate for the Senior Toll Revenue Bonds, they are probably higher given that VTIB is a government entity.

At that rate over 34 years the interest will be 67% of the principal.

One million dollar loan would cost a total of $1,671,956.


If you figure the VTIB loan is $151.9 million, 3.3% of that is $5,012,700 per year. As for the Senior Toll Revenue Bonds, that's 4.59%, or $7,275,150 per year. That's all about $12,287,850 million per year in repayments.

Total costs to repay specifically on Dominion Blvd would be around $763,086,900 (probably some more if you consider operation and maintenance costs) in 34 years, and that includes yearly interest payments, plus upfront costs of $345.3 million.

If you consider 4% on the expressway (an estimate), that could be near $300 million total for that facility.

I guess if you do consider all these factors, the 2051 termination date seems reasonable. I still don't understand why these facilities were tolled to begin with - the claim is that there wasn't enough transportation funding available, however it seems they've been throwing out projects like candy, $500 million there, $3 billion there, etc... I don't understand why these projects south I-64 were cut off from any major transportation funding, when it clearly could've been funded.

I find it funny how the state was going to invest hundreds of millions into a 460 toll road for 10,000 VPD, and when the state lost $250 million, they seemed to recover pretty fine. Dominion Blvd & 168, which if were not tolled, would carry almost up to 40,000 VPD in near future years, and would've been a way better investment.

The way transportation money is being allocated doesn't make any sense. Makes me wonder sometimes how North Carolina only has 2 tolls roads, one costing near a billion, and the other over 2 billion, and have low tolls for 20 mile distances. Everything else is publicly funded there.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 11:26:46 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #299 on: December 13, 2018, 11:44:49 PM »

The City of Chesapeake wanted these projects built, took them on as local projects, designed them as they pleased within basic VDOT standards, and funded them as they pleased.  BTW the Oak Grove Connector and the Great Bridge Bypass were built by the state as toll-free highways, as was relocated US-17 south of Dominion Blvd.

Go to an amortization program, there are many online.

$152 million at 4.6% for 34 years   = $300,892,552
$151 million at 3.33% for 34 years = $252,465,394

North Carolina is a very high taxed state, figure about 30 to 40% more each for state general taxes, income taxes, local taxes and road user taxes.  Not somewhere I want to live.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 11:47:10 PM by Beltway »
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