Virginia

[sprjus4]

Sure, but you seemed to be arguing that was the only benefit and the lawsuits should find the program unwarranted.

When a work zone was posted at 60 mph for several months suddenly is reduced to 50 mph (with no changes in roadway geometry, lane shifts, etc.) along with cameras installed, it sure makes you question things.

That, along with their $12+ million annually raised from the program, reallyyyyy makes you question things.

Also, why are cameras only posted along US-58 work zones? There's several ongoing throughout the city. But only the major highway in and out of the metro? These speeding "issues" only have recently arisen due to speed limits being lowered well below what they should be.

Right.  Let's see if the courts agree with your assessment.

Well, that's not what the court is looking at. So that's irrelevant.

The fact the cameras are a revenue generating machine, is indeed a fact. They brought in $12.5 million from cameras in FY 2024. That is, in fact, revenue.

[Rothman]

Sure, but you seemed to be arguing that was the only benefit and the lawsuits should find the program unwarranted.

When a work zone was posted at 60 mph for several months suddenly is reduced to 50 mph (with no changes in roadway geometry, lane shifts, etc.) along with cameras installed, it sure makes you question things.

That, along with their $12+ million annually raised from the program, reallyyyyy makes you question things.

Also, why are cameras only posted along US-58 work zones? There's several ongoing throughout the city. But only the major highway in and out of the metro? These speeding "issues" only have recently arisen due to speed limits being lowered well below what they should be.

Right.  Let's see if the courts agree with your assessment.

Well, that's not what the court is looking at. So that's irrelevant.

The fact the cameras are a revenue generating machine, is indeed a fact. They brought in $12.5 million from cameras in FY 2024. That is, in fact, revenue.

At this point, I don't know what your point is.

[Beltway]

Suffolk made $12.5 million in camera revenue in FY 2024 alone. It's a revenue stream. Lowering a speed limit from 60 mph to 50 mph on a freeway because of a jersey barrier, no lane shifts, or any major traffic impact, and then attaching a camera to it with a small "photo enforced" sign hardly noticeable, is about revenue.
Same with their, now complete, 55 mph to 25 mph reduction along US-460 for a median project.

That was a pain in the rear end. That is the route I usually took from Richmond to Centerville for classes. Maybe as low as 35 would be ok, but an urban 25 limit in a semi-rural area?

That $12.5 million sounds rather questionable -- that is about 700 tickets per day.

More data on the Huguenot High School / Forest Hill Avenue school zone speed cameras that I got nailed at a year ago --

They have one VMS for the speed limit each way and about 1/4 mile from the cameras.
Eastbound -- there are 4 entrances between the sign and the cameras.
Westbound -- there are 8 entrances between the sign and the cameras.

Those are the only speed VMS on the segment. Speed limit is 35 normally and 25 when school is in session for I think 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon.

The entrances include a several public roads, several businesses and several driveways.

So this means that someone entering the road from one of those entrances will not see any speed VMS before reaching the cameras.

This is a bogus and corrupt installation because many people will enter the segment and not know about the speed reduction.

I need to confront my city councilperson about this and demand that they either sign it fully or remove the installation.

[Scott5114]

Any per mile metric is flawed given the sheer mileage of toll roads in states like NY, NJ, PA, FL, OH, IN and OK.

Eh, not exactly. Oklahoma has a concept called "cross-pledging" where all of the revenue from all of the toll roads goes to the same pot, and is distributed to pay off whatever bonds are outstanding irrespective of which turnpike was built or improved with them. Meaning that drivers on the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes (which have the highest traffic counts, and have had their construction bonds paid off for decades) are subsidizing the newer (like the Kickapoo) and less-used (like the Cherokee) turnpikes. So in Oklahoma's case, it has a low per-mile cost because it has had so many miles of turnpike for so long.

[Beltway]

Any per mile metric is flawed given the sheer mileage of toll roads in states like NY, NJ, PA, FL, OH, IN and OK.

Eh, not exactly. Oklahoma has a concept called "cross-pledging" where all of the revenue from all of the toll roads goes to the same pot, and is distributed to pay off whatever bonds are outstanding irrespective of which turnpike was built or improved with them. Meaning that drivers on the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes (which have the highest traffic counts, and have had their construction bonds paid off for decades) are subsidizing the newer (like the Kickapoo) and less-used (like the Cherokee) turnpikes. So in Oklahoma's case, it has a low per-mile cost because it has had so many miles of turnpike for so long.

The 1950s/1960s turnpikes (Turner, Rogers, Bailey) have just recently been allocated widening projects, after almost none before. So things are changing.

The Turner, Will Rogers, and H.E. Bailey turnpikes in Oklahoma, built in the 1950s/1960s, are part of the ACCESS Oklahoma plan, announced in 2022 by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority. This $8.2 billion initiative includes widening these turnpikes to six lanes, adding interchanges, and upgrading bridges, with $2.5 billion allocated for the Turner alone. Toll increases effective January 2025 fund the projects, with some segments starting in 2024 and continuing over a decade. OTA is funding this $8.2 billion initiative primarily through issuance of new toll revenue bonds, supplemented by toll increases.

The toll for cars (2-axle vehicles) on the Turner Turnpike, traveling the full length from Oklahoma City to Tulsa (approximately 88 miles), as of January 1, 2025, is $5.40 with a PIKEPASS and $10.50 with PlatePay, per the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority (OTA) and turnpikeinfo.com.

They don't take EZPass -- so that is 11.9 cents per mile for someone that doesn't have their Pikepass.

That is not inexpensive -- that is similar to the PA Turnpike and others like them that have 200+ miles of turnpikes.

[sprjus4]

They don't take EZPass -- so that is 11.9 cents per mile for someone that doesn't have their Pikepass.

That is not inexpensive -- that is similar to the PA Turnpike and others like them that have 200+ miles of turnpikes.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike charges 34 cents per mile for pay by plate.

Oklahoma charges 11.9 cents per mile for pay by plate.

Big difference.

[Beltway]

They don't take EZPass -- so that is 11.9 cents per mile for someone that doesn't have their Pikepass.
That is not inexpensive -- that is similar to the PA Turnpike and others like them that have 200+ miles of turnpikes.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike charges 34 cents per mile for pay by plate.
Oklahoma charges 11.9 cents per mile for pay by plate.
Big difference.

Your EZPass will work on nearly every system -- but not OTA.

Actually 16 cents per mile EZPass for the entire 360-mile east-west turnpike -- not that big of a difference -- and they have by my latest data 125 miles of 6-lane widening completed, 18 miles under construction and 81 miles in final design.

States I have used EZPass on -- FL, VA, MD, DE, PA, NJ, NY, WV, OH, IN, IL.

NC has it but I have not used it yet. AFAIK all NE states have it.

[vdeane]

Your EZPass will work on nearly every system -- but not OTA.

The only place E-ZPass works west of the Mississippi - and only barely - is in Minnesota.  There are also a decent number of toll facilities in the South that don't take E-ZPass.  It's the biggest interoperable system in the country, but it's nowhere close to "nearly every system".

While I agree that cameras often have calibration/other issues, I suspect that most opposition to camera-based enforcement is from people who don't follow the law and who don't want a situation where they'd have to be 100% compliant. 

That's the problem -- speed enforcement has never been about being "100% compliant" because that means that 1 mph over is an automatic ticket.

I am a uniformed volunteer for a major city police department (RPD), not a sworn officer but have 8 or 9 core duties that don't require such, so I don't issue traffic summons.  I know from inside knowledge that this department and departments in general don't issue speeding tickets for less than 15 over unless someone at the command level (captain or above) orders it. Of course that doesn't mean that some rookie might not sometimes ignore that; we don't live in a perfect world.

If the limit is 35, then 36 doesn't suddenly become "dangerous." Or necessarily 40 or 45. It is the nature of speed limits that some people will exceed them, and that LE doesn't have the resources to enforce an exact limit so that is why they have that leeway, or at least should have leeway.

This has done nothing to convince me that you don't just want to be able to speed without getting a ticket.  If anything, it has only convinced me that such is indeed the case even more.  Now, I'd allow a small (5 mph?) buffer to account for different systems being calibrated differently and for the fact that even cruise control isn't perfect about keeping the exact same speed, but I'd also tell people not to count on them as a way to try to speed and get out of a ticket.

[sprjus4]

Virginia law only allows speed camera tickets to be issued for speeds 11 mph or more than the posted speed limit.

[vdeane]

Virginia law only allows speed camera tickets to be issued for speeds 11 mph or more than the posted speed limit.

That seems to be common a lot of places.  Reasonable given the current paradigm, although not compatible with my "raise the limits but make them real limits" dream.  It's a shame that the "set the limit very low but have a big tolerance because 'everyone will just go faster'" system is so popular; I'd much rather not have to worry about whatever the local tolerance is or whether I'd be treated any differently for not being from the area, but the only way to guarantee that is to always follow the limit exactly, and the current system makes that unreasonable.

[Beltway]

If the limit is 35, then 36 doesn't suddenly become "dangerous." Or necessarily 40 or 45. It is the nature of speed limits that some people will exceed them, and that LE doesn't have the resources to enforce an exact limit so that is why they have that leeway, or at least should have leeway.

This has done nothing to convince me that you don't just want to be able to speed without getting a ticket.  If anything, it has only convinced me that such is indeed the case even more.  Now, I'd allow a small (5 mph?) buffer to account for different systems being calibrated differently and for the fact that even cruise control isn't perfect about keeping the exact same speed, but I'd also tell people not to count on them as a way to try to speed and get out of a ticket.

Swing and a miss.

I have driven 1.3 million miles in 55 years and I have gotten one speeding ticket issued by an officer, that was about 5 years ago, and it was an unlucky confluence. And I have never owned a radar detector.

Now in the last few years I have gotten photo speed tickets, one in New Market MD and the aforementioned one a couple miles from my house. Both states have a margin, 12 mph in Maryland and 11 mph in Virginia. Sounds good?

Well, how about a "one warning per year policy"?

How about you are going 40 in a 35 (very common) and you are distracted and miss the VMS that says 25?

My instance on Forest Hill Avenue involved a minor traffic jam where I was stopped for a couple minutes between the VMS and the camera, and when it cleared I forgot about the limit reduction. It is not common to have a scheme like this with speed VMS and a no warning policy.

There is no mechanism in place to explain that to an official and get the ticket cancelled or at least have that considered.

Did you see this in my post yesterday?  This is a CORRUPT system.

More data on the Huguenot High School / Forest Hill Avenue school zone speed cameras that I got nailed at a year ago --

They have one VMS for the speed limit each way and about 1/4 mile from the cameras.
Eastbound -- there are 4 entrances between the sign and the cameras.
Westbound -- there are 8 entrances between the sign and the cameras.

Those are the only speed VMS on the segment. Speed limit is 35 normally and 25 when school is in session for I think 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon.

The entrances include a several public roads, several businesses and several driveways.

So this means that someone entering the road from one of those entrances will not see any speed VMS before reaching the cameras.

This is a bogus and corrupt installation because many people will enter the segment and not know about the speed reduction.

I need to confront my city councilperson about this and demand that they either sign it fully or remove the installation.

[vdeane]

How about you are going 40 in a 35 (very common) and you are distracted and miss the VMS that says 25?

My instance on Forest Hill Avenue involved a minor traffic jam where I was stopped for a couple minutes between the VMS and the camera, and when it cleared I forgot about the limit reduction. It is not common to have a scheme like this with speed VMS and a no warning policy.

Sounds to me like the problem is only using a VMS to do a work zone speed reduction, not the camera.  In NY all work zone speed limits are signed like this with speed limit reduction signs in advance.

[Beltway]

Your EZPass will work on nearly every system -- but not OTA.

The only place E-ZPass works west of the Mississippi - and only barely - is in Minnesota.  There are also a decent number of toll facilities in the South that don't take E-ZPass.  It's the biggest interoperable system in the country, but it's nowhere close to "nearly every system".

Where in the South? Virginia, NC and Florida AFAIK allow it on all.

Other than a few minor toll bridges, where else are there toll roads in the South?

[vdeane]

Your EZPass will work on nearly every system -- but not OTA.

The only place E-ZPass works west of the Mississippi - and only barely - is in Minnesota.  There are also a decent number of toll facilities in the South that don't take E-ZPass.  It's the biggest interoperable system in the country, but it's nowhere close to "nearly every system".

Where in the South? Virginia, NC and Florida AFAIK allow it on all.

Other than a few minor toll bridges, where else are there toll roads in the South?

I-185 only takes PalmettoPass.  There are a handful of out of the way toll roads in Alabama that only take FreedomPass (not sure what I-10 will use once that project happens).  And Louisiana has GeauxPass.

[Beltway]

How about you are going 40 in a 35 (very common) and you are distracted and miss the VMS that says 25?
My instance on Forest Hill Avenue involved a minor traffic jam where I was stopped for a couple minutes between the VMS and the camera, and when it cleared I forgot about the limit reduction. It is not common to have a scheme like this with speed VMS and a no warning policy.

Sounds to me like the problem is only using a VMS to do a work zone speed reduction, not the camera.  In NY all work zone speed limits are signed like this with speed limit reduction signs in advance.

I can't find a good picture online, and they may vary widely in VA for all I know, but I can describe it --

LED numbers in the sign illuminate when it is 25, and the sign is dark outside of the hours.

[Beltway]

Where in the South? Virginia, NC and Florida AFAIK allow it on all.
Other than a few minor toll bridges, where else are there toll roads in the South?

I-185 only takes PalmettoPass.  There are a handful of out of the way toll roads in Alabama that only take FreedomPass (not sure what I-10 will use once that project happens).  And Louisiana has GeauxPass.

That -is- a handful.

Even North Carolina currently has about 65 miles of toll roads across three major facilities.

[Rothman]

How about you are going 40 in a 35 (very common) and you are distracted and miss the VMS that says 25?

My instance on Forest Hill Avenue involved a minor traffic jam where I was stopped for a couple minutes between the VMS and the camera, and when it cleared I forgot about the limit reduction. It is not common to have a scheme like this with speed VMS and a no warning policy.

Sounds to me like the problem is only using a VMS to do a work zone speed reduction, not the camera.  In NY all work zone speed limits are signed like this with speed limit reduction signs in advance.

NYSDOT also puts out specific advance warning signage that a camera is upcoming in the work zone when the unit is present  If you slow down at the warning sign, no ticket for you.

[Beltway]

How about you are going 40 in a 35 (very common) and you are distracted and miss the VMS that says 25?
My instance on Forest Hill Avenue involved a minor traffic jam where I was stopped for a couple minutes between the VMS and the camera, and when it cleared I forgot about the limit reduction. It is not common to have a scheme like this with speed VMS and a no warning policy.

Sounds to me like the problem is only using a VMS to do a work zone speed reduction, not the camera.  In NY all work zone speed limits are signed like this with speed limit reduction signs in advance.

NYSDOT also puts out specific advance warning signage that a camera is upcoming in the work zone when the unit is present  If you slow down at the warning sign, no ticket for you.

That is how it is laid out on the I-64 GAP Widening project that was the original subject.

Richmond in at least one instance does not.

But this still doesn't obviate multiple other issues with camera enforcement.

[sprjus4]

Richmond in at least one instance does not.

If there's a speed camera that does not provide ample warning, then it is illegal. Any ticket is invalid, I would take that to court and fight it.

[Rothman]

Richmond in at least one instance does not.

If there's a speed camera that does not provide ample warning, then it is illegal. Any ticket is invalid, I would take that to court and fight it.

.

Sine NY's warnings are codified into law, I wonder how that would work out in VA.  Might end up being, "Doesn't matter if there was a specific warning or not, you knew what the speed limit was."

Of course, I prefer NY's way of doing things...