Traffic signal

[jeffandnicole]

Two overhead signals each for a single thru lane and a single left turn. This is overkill and a messy install.

2 signals per movement.  Gets that accomplished. Signals may not be 8 feet apart which is the only issue, but a minor one.

[Amtrakprod]

Two overhead signals each for a single thru lane and a single left turn. This is overkill and a messy install.

Would've been great if they just moved one of the left turn signals onto the left sided pole


iPhone

[mrsman]

Two overhead signals each for a single thru lane and a single left turn. This is overkill and a messy install.

Agreed.  Use of some sidemounted signals would declutter this install.

[paulthemapguy]

Two overhead signals each for a single thru lane and a single left turn. This is overkill and a messy install.

Agreed.  Use of some sidemounted signals would declutter this install.

I like how this is designed.  If you're going to have a mast arm that long, you might as well use it for both of your signals intended for one movement.  A usage of sidemounted signals would put them too far off to the side, given the length of the mast arm; unless you put them on the channelizing islands housing the crosswalk signals.

[EpicRoadways]

Two overhead signals each for a single thru lane and a single left turn. This is overkill and a messy install.

Agreed.  Use of some sidemounted signals would declutter this install.

I like how this is designed.  If you're going to have a mast arm that long, you might as well use it for both of your signals intended for one movement.  A usage of sidemounted signals would put them too far off to the side, given the length of the mast arm; unless you put them on the channelizing islands housing the crosswalk signals.

I feel like two left turn signals mounted on the same mast is a visual cue for two left turn lanes... it wouldn't surprise me if some drivers mistake the left thru lane as an option lane and attempt to turn left from that lane as well (lane markings be damned). I'd rather see that second arrow either side-mounted or mounted on the mast in the foreground instead.

[mrsman]

Two overhead signals each for a single thru lane and a single left turn. This is overkill and a messy install.

Agreed.  Use of some sidemounted signals would declutter this install.

I like how this is designed.  If you're going to have a mast arm that long, you might as well use it for both of your signals intended for one movement.  A usage of sidemounted signals would put them too far off to the side, given the length of the mast arm; unless you put them on the channelizing islands housing the crosswalk signals.

I feel like two left turn signals mounted on the same mast is a visual cue for two left turn lanes... it wouldn't surprise me if some drivers mistake the left thru lane as an option lane and attempt to turn left from that lane as well (lane markings be damned). I'd rather see that second arrow either side-mounted or mounted on the mast in the foreground instead.

That's a really good point.  There are different standards in different states as to whether there even needs to be two left turn signal faces at every intersection.  [Some states only require one, some states require two, some states require two but allow the second to be near sided or on a left sidemount, some states only require the red left arrow to be doubled like in Baltimore.]

Baltimore example:  https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3569075,-76.7032814,3a,75y,306.12h,103.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAFDdgUH00yLC0vAVfxf53g!2e0!5s20090801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

[Old install.  The modern install has a regular RA-YA-GA at this location with a second signal face on a near sided install on the other mast arm.]

But you are right that it is very common in many areas to have two left signal faces on the mast arm where there are two left lanes, and one on the mast arm where there is only one lane - so another reason to move the second RA-YA-GA signal off this mast arm.

[jeffandnicole]

Two overhead signals each for a single thru lane and a single left turn. This is overkill and a messy install.

Agreed.  Use of some sidemounted signals would declutter this install.

I like how this is designed.  If you're going to have a mast arm that long, you might as well use it for both of your signals intended for one movement.  A usage of sidemounted signals would put them too far off to the side, given the length of the mast arm; unless you put them on the channelizing islands housing the crosswalk signals.

I feel like two left turn signals mounted on the same mast is a visual cue for two left turn lanes... it wouldn't surprise me if some drivers mistake the left thru lane as an option lane and attempt to turn left from that lane as well (lane markings be damned). I'd rather see that second arrow either side-mounted or mounted on the mast in the foreground instead.

That's a really good point.  There are different standards in different states as to whether there even needs to be two left turn signal faces at every intersection.  [Some states only require one, some states require two, some states require two but allow the second to be near sided or on a left sidemount, some states only require the red left arrow to be doubled like in Baltimore.]

On these forums, I think sometimes we lose focus on how states operate.  We are quick to say, well, they do it a certain way in Maryland, or NJ, or Ohio, or Montana, because we're looking at the country (and beyond) on a Macro level, and would love to see states incorporate how other states do things.

Whereas Delaware is only concerned about Delaware.  Their Transportation guys are in Delaware, and adhere to Delaware standards and procedures.  While they may have heard of how other states build things, and no doubt they've seen other options on personal vacations, they're suddenly not going to abandon their state's procedures and engineering methods. 

In this regard, Delaware overall isn't big on sidemounted signals.  There's some around, especially in cities where they may do their own installs or due to narrow intersection widths.  But overall, they keep everything mounted on guidewires (and even their method was fairly unique) or use these masts.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it's mostly Delaware residents driving on Delaware roads.  Consistency is somewhat important.  And to this point, this location isn't unique to Delaware using 2 Left Turn lights for a single lane. 

https://goo.gl/maps/gspQ1r51FpHHTDau6
https://goo.gl/maps/KCcU9iLKGRd3axy29
https://goo.gl/maps/xGkjCbY6eURAZXBq6
https://goo.gl/maps/A8FeWpzHxzGtoeTo9 (This intersection does have a side mounted install...for the ramp lane where the only option is to turn left)

So before everyone goes all shock and appalled at how the lights are installed at this intersection, realize that this is a typical installation in Delaware, and confusion shouldn't exist.

For what it's worth - anyone check out the abnormally long left turn lane here? It's 900 feet long!

[jakeroot]

On these forums, I think sometimes we lose focus on how states operate.  We are quick to say, well, they do it a certain way in Maryland, or NJ, or Ohio, or Montana, because we're looking at the country (and beyond) on a Macro level, and would love to see states incorporate how other states do things.

I think we're all very much aware that each state has their own standards, and that engineers in those states generally have to comply with the rules in those states.

What I think we're all a bit confused about, is why you have states like California or Minnesota, with similar requirements for duplication, yet they have objectively far-superior placement standards for those extra signal heads. Delaware, for whatever reason, has decided to cram the extra signal heads all right next to each other. Congrats to them for having redundant signals, but they have the opportunity to have both redundancy and improved visibility, yet they don't seem to care about the latter. From what I've seen, Georgia has similar requirements, and similar practices; thus, similar negatives.

In Washington State, WSDOT's Eastern Region (Spokane) requires two left turn signals for dedicated left turns (Spokane proper requires far-left/far-right signals at all intersections); in all cases, the extra left turn signal is on the far left side of the intersection. This kills two birds with one stone: you get the redundancy in case of burn-out or malfunction, and drivers can see the state of the signals behind taller vehicles.

Just the other day, moving through a double left fully-protected turn southeast of Tacoma, WA, I was behind a very tall trash-semi (not the kind that pick up garbage, but the kind that move it from transfer facilities). I could not see around it. As I was approaching the stop line, although the light had been green for a while, letting off the throttle long enough to actually see over the truck (and risking the possibility of letting the light trip) would have put me a good 10 car lengths behind the truck, which is not reasonable at all. Well, lo and behold, the truck entered on red, and I entered on a very, very red signal. I was caught out in the middle, because WSDOT did not install an extra left turn signal (the Olympic Region does not have extra signal requirements) and I was basically blind entering behind the truck. I waited for traffic to go, and then finished my turn. This worked fine, but other drivers might have simply kept turning and drove head-first into oncoming traffic, or might have tried to reverse back behind the limit line. Either way, not safe.

That entire situation could have been avoided by signalizing the left turn like this intersection barely a mile away, or this intersection a little further out. But because WSDOT's Olympic Region has its own standards, they didn't have to install that extra signal on the left, and therefore they did not. Their standards are objectively worse than similar standards even in the same state.

What's my rambling point here? Roads do not exist in a bubble, and neither do the experiences and situations encountered on those roads. Delaware's standards are objectively poor when compared to states with similar redundancy requirements. Delaware may only be "concerned about Delaware", but that shouldn't allow them to ignore objectively better practices from elsewhere. After all, it's not like they don't adopt other new things (like zebra crossings for all crossings, or retroreflective yellow signal borders).

[jakeroot]

As part of the Seattle area's Sound Transit Eastlink light rail extension through Bellevue, the city of Bellevue is constructing a new arterial, Spring Blvd, adjacent to the light rail ROW.

As is the norm for Bellevue, the left turns are going to be flashing yellow arrow signals. However, this intersection (pictured below -- no GSV imagery yet) also has bike signals in each direction.

From what I've seen elsewhere in Washington, left turns across signalized bike lanes are always protected-only. So I'm very interested to see how these will operate.

FYA signals in Bellevue have advanced ped phasing; the red arrow remains on while the walk sign is on, but the FYA activates when the countdown begins. I assume some variation of this will be used here.

(Image 1) shows an overview of the signals
(Image 2) shows a close-up of the bike signals with other nearby signals
(Image 3) shows the bike signal off to the left of an overhead FYA

(all images slightly modified to improve visibility of the signals).

[SignBridge]

Two overhead signals each for a single thru lane and a single left turn. This is overkill and a messy install.

2 signals per movement.  Gets that accomplished. Signals may not be 8 feet apart which is the only issue, but a minor one.

J&N, I believe the Manual only requires the two thru movement signal heads to be eight feet apart, which they appear to be in that photo. Any supplemental or turn-signal heads can be closer. In fact New York City has some installations where the turn-signal head is immediately adjacent to the thru head. I originally thought it was an MUTCD violation, but found that it was not, when I re-read the standard.

[jeffandnicole]

On these forums, I think sometimes we lose focus on how states operate.  We are quick to say, well, they do it a certain way in Maryland, or NJ, or Ohio, or Montana, because we're looking at the country (and beyond) on a Macro level, and would love to see states incorporate how other states do things.

I think we're all very much aware that each state has their own standards, and that engineers in those states generally have to comply with the rules in those states.

I think there's a number of people that do.  Probably the majority.  But there's clearly some people that don't get it.

What's my rambling point here? Roads do not exist in a bubble, and neither do the experiences and situations encountered on those roads. Delaware's standards are objectively poor when compared to states with similar redundancy requirements. Delaware may only be "concerned about Delaware", but that shouldn't allow them to ignore objectively better practices from elsewhere. After all, it's not like they don't adopt other new things (like zebra crossings for all crossings, or retroreflective yellow signal borders).

I somewhat agree.  I think it's important to note that Delaware has been using this type of setup for many years, if not literally decades. One picture of one intersection is posted, and people not used to Delaware's setup have a conniption over it not realizing this is Delaware's standard operating procedure statewide, and has been for a long time. 

It's also important to note that based on that, Delaware seems to do very well without side-mounted signals.  They are also by far not the only state which doesn't tend to use side-mounted traffic lights.  I don't know if anyone here has ever developed a list, but I'd wager that states that primarily use overhead-only lights are probably a more common setup than states with a mix of overhead and side-mounted lights at intersections.  Ironically, they border against NJ, which is probably one of the most aggressive states when it comes to side-mounted or overhead lights on the near side of the intersection.

However, and moving away from Delaware, we can see that there is a lot of inconsistency throughout the entire country on traffic standards (Hell, even within the states themselves, there's a lot of inconsistency).  If we took the best of the best of every state, and mandated it throughout the country, we would probably be better off for it. 

That said, while Delaware is only concerned about Delaware, generally speaking, (Insert your state here) is only concerned about (Insert same state here), and there are an untold number of differences between states that share a common border.  Personally, I think Delaware does a lot of things right, especially as I look at it from a point of view living in NJ and traveling a lot in PA.  Delaware does a lot of things uniquely as well: They have a ton of T and inverted T lights; way more than most other states.  And then they do some things poorly, such as signing turning lanes - they frequently only use a single turn arrow on the road, and rarely have signage informing you of the lane designations.

[KEK Inc.]

Regarding the Bellevue lights, seems like an odd spot for bike signals -- considering that the street has a bike lane.

[STLmapboy]

You seen backplates, but have you seen lights entirely in front of their backplates?

[STLmapboy]

In KC, before the road veers right.

[JoePCool14]

You seen backplates, but have you seen lights entirely in front of their backplates?

I'm absolutely not a fan of that. I think it looks tacky.

In KC, before the road veers right.

How on earth was this allowed?

[plain]

You seen backplates, but have you seen lights entirely in front of their backplates?

The vast majority of Huntsville's lights are like that. I can't stand them. Looks even dumber in person.

[Amtrakprod]

One light in my town is similar to that, but isnt behind the entire signal.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4026099,-71.1558461,3a,15y,91.45h,100.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-17SvUsu6lH6Sk25ufYwsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[STLmapboy]

Check out this 2-minute Youtube video, filmed in Carlyss LA (near Lake Charles) during Laura. Multiple traffic signals are shown; one span wire with traffic lights barely hanging on, a completely destroyed mast arm leaning across a road, and a mast arm by a gas station that is still intact but the wind has spun it around.

More damaged traffic light content: here.

[STLmapboy]

Ever seen a mast arm painted vivid blue before?

[US 89]

Ever seen a mast arm painted vivid blue before?

Lots of signals are painted a similar color in downtown Albuquerque, though I think they'd prefer to call it turquoise.

As a side note, why are you using Polish Google?

[STLmapboy]

Ever seen a mast arm painted vivid blue before?

Lots of signals are painted a similar color in downtown Albuquerque, though I think they'd prefer to call it turquoise.

As a side note, why are you using Polish Google?

It's a long story but basically involves an inherited computer and a bookmarked tab I'm too lazy to change.

[Amtrakprod]

Unrelated (maybe)

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7759595,-73.6982198,3a,27.5y,143.45h,87.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saN_BkYCS2iRTbV5dhoXzGQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Oh my gosh, they are key lime green!

[fwydriver405]

What are the longest poles you've seen with just one overhead signal? This image from Mitchell SD.

This signal in Rochester NH on US202/NH11 comes to mind. Being a NHDOT maintained signal, it used to have two overhead signals (started off as two thru arrows, then changed to green ball on the left signal, green thru arrow on the right signal), then for some unknown reason, the left-most signal was removed and replaced with a "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN" sign.

[jeffandnicole]

What are the longest poles you've seen with just one overhead signal? This image from Mitchell SD.

NJ 70 near NJ 73: https://maps.app.goo.gl/rCNJXprJRq2UxRNf9

Leaving a shopping center; rough estimate is about 52 feet.

[STLmapboy]

Ohio near-airport install. Notice how they're all ground mounted.

Also in Northern Ohio; some super weird arrows that I'm gonna guess are found nowhere else in the US, if not the world.

SECOND EDIT: More Ohio weirdness. Goddamn, this state might be one of the most inconsistent in the country when it comes to traffic signals!