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Author Topic: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)  (Read 54099 times)

Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #275 on: January 08, 2020, 06:56:17 AM »

Theres 3 lanes EB. They would need about 7 transponder readers. 3 for the lanes, 2 in between the three lanes, then 2 the shoulders. If they toll westbound, they will need up to seven transponder readers as well. Plus for each side of the road they would need the gantries over the roadway, toll cameras to look for who didn't have transponders, and other related equipment. Right there your entire setup cost to have doubled. Then of course they need ongoing maintenance when you have transponders over both roadways, so that's double the maintenance. And when people don't have transponders, that's double the violations that need to be researched and double the number of violation notices that are mailed out.
So what is the cost of that, maybe $100,000?  About the cost of signalizing an intersection.

Tiny cost compared to one of their major rehab projects, which for the westbound span is $27 million.

The only reason for converting to one-way tolling was to double the number of toll booths on one roadway without adding new toll booths.  That happened back before electronic tolling was available, when the capacity of a toll booth was considerably lower, and where toll plaza congestion was a serious problem.

With all-electronic tolling, toll booths are not needed, and full freeway service will be in effect.

In such a setup, one-way tolling is a flawed pricing process.  Each direction should be tolled at half of the one-way rate.
 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 06:59:48 AM by Beltway »
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #276 on: January 08, 2020, 07:45:32 AM »

The bridge has five total lanes. Two on the “eastbound” bridge, three on the “westbound,” and they normally reverse one lane on the “westbound” bridge if traffic requires a third eastbound lane.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #277 on: January 08, 2020, 02:30:48 PM »

Theres 3 lanes EB. They would need about 7 transponder readers. 3 for the lanes, 2 in between the three lanes, then 2 the shoulders. If they toll westbound, they will need up to seven transponder readers as well. Plus for each side of the road they would need the gantries over the roadway, toll cameras to look for who didn't have transponders, and other related equipment. Right there your entire setup cost to have doubled. Then of course they need ongoing maintenance when you have transponders over both roadways, so that's double the maintenance. And when people don't have transponders, that's double the violations that need to be researched and double the number of violation notices that are mailed out.
So what is the cost of that, maybe $100,000?  About the cost of signalizing an intersection.

Tiny cost compared to one of their major rehab projects, which for the westbound span is $27 million.

The only reason for converting to one-way tolling was to double the number of toll booths on one roadway without adding new toll booths.  That happened back before electronic tolling was available, when the capacity of a toll booth was considerably lower, and where toll plaza congestion was a serious problem.

With all-electronic tolling, toll booths are not needed, and full freeway service will be in effect.



Oh, you are so sweet that you think that only costs $100,000.

Quote
In such a setup, one-way tolling is a flawed pricing process.  Each direction should be tolled at half of the one-way rate.

I can't help but notice you continually avoid my remarks regarding the lack of alternatives, making 2 way tolling useless because nearly the same number of vehicles will be making round trips anyway.

Now, if you want to talk about truckers using 301-50, let's look at the realities for 5 axle Trucks who don't try to shunpike.  We'll assume the normal cash/EZ Pass rates...

Southbound: Toll via on 95 from Delaware to the DC area:
I-95 in Delaware: $9.00
Either 95/695/895 in the Baltimore area: $24.00
Total: $33.00

Southbound: Toll via 1 to 301 to 50 from Delaware to the DC area
US 301 in Delaware: $11.00

So it's a nice $22.00 savings.

Northbound: Toll via on 95 from the DC area to Delaware:

Either 95/695/895 in the Baltimore area: $24.00
I-95 in Maryland: $48.00
I-95 in Delaware: $9.00
Total: $81.00

Northbound: Toll via 50 to 301 to 1 from the DC area to Delaware:
US 50/301 at the Chesapeake Bay Bridge: $24.00
US 301 in Delaware: $11.00
Total: $35.00

So, a huge $46.00 savings. 

But wait a minute...it's been brought up that the reason for the construction on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge is truckers are using it shunpiking Southbound.  I just proved that there's even a more significant savings Northbound...so that whole excuse doesn't hold much water as a primary reason.

Now that I've presented that...let's say the Chesapeake Bay Bridge goes 2 way tolling.  As the toll is $24 currently EB, let's assume they'll cut it in half so it's $12 each way.

That brings the overall toll for SB truckers to $23, so they're still saving $10 in that direction.

However in the Northbound direction, they'll be spending $12 less. They'll now save an incredible $58 going Northbound via 50/301/1, versus I-95!

So tell me...why would Maryland want to revert to two-way tolling again?  There's absolutely no reason to justify the expense (which, again, you're sweet at thinking it'll cost $100,000) when 1 way captures nearly all of the round-trip motorists anyway.
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #278 on: January 08, 2020, 02:52:45 PM »

So what is the cost of that, maybe $100,000?  About the cost of signalizing an intersection.
Tiny cost compared to one of their major rehab projects, which for the westbound span is $27 million.
Oh, you are so sweet that you think that only costs $100,000.
So what is your general estimate?

The amount of hardware and construction for a major intersection is similar.

Quote
In such a setup, one-way tolling is a flawed pricing process.  Each direction should be tolled at half of the one-way rate.
I can't help but notice you continually avoid my remarks regarding the lack of alternatives, making 2 way tolling useless because nearly the same number of vehicles will be making round trips anyway.
There are many other trip pairs other than going to I-95 in northern Delaware.

I go to Easton and St. Michaels which are roughly 30 miles east of the Bay Bridge.

What about all the other trip pairs, including to the Atlantic beaches?

So tell me...why would Maryland want to revert to two-way tolling again?
Because that is how people use the bridge and most any toll facility.

The only reason for one-way tolling in 1991 was because due to increased traffic volumes, they needed twice as many toll booths and didn't want to incur the financial and environmental costs of expanding the toll plaza, and that was the in the day before electronic tolling existed.
 
All electronic tolling gives the ability to eliminate the toll plaza entirely, making it a seamless high-speed freeway.
 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 02:56:54 PM by Beltway »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #279 on: January 08, 2020, 03:44:36 PM »

So what is the cost of that, maybe $100,000?  About the cost of signalizing an intersection.
Tiny cost compared to one of their major rehab projects, which for the westbound span is $27 million.
Oh, you are so sweet that you think that only costs $100,000.
So what is your general estimate?

The amount of hardware and construction for a major intersection is similar.

I'm hoping bidx will tell me the results.  I'll look when I have some time.

Quote
In such a setup, one-way tolling is a flawed pricing process.  Each direction should be tolled at half of the one-way rate.
I can't help but notice you continually avoid my remarks regarding the lack of alternatives, making 2 way tolling useless because nearly the same number of vehicles will be making round trips anyway.
There are many other trip pairs other than going to I-95 in northern Delaware.

I go to Easton and St. Michaels which are roughly 30 miles east of the Bay Bridge.

What about all the other trip pairs, including to the Atlantic beaches?

My comments were in reply to posts regarding truckers shunning the I-95 tolls in favor of utilizing 301/50.

Since apparently we have ADD and constantly move the goalposts around, apparently we're now talking vacations or commuting.

There would be no toll shunning if we're simply going from an area relatively close to one side of this bridge to an area relatively close to another side of this bridge.  This bridge is the only reasonable option.

So tell me...why would Maryland want to revert to two-way tolling again?
Because that is how people use the bridge and most any toll facility.

The only reason for one-way tolling in 1991 was because due to increased traffic volumes, they needed twice as many toll booths and didn't want to incur the financial and environmental costs of expanding the toll plaza, and that was the in the day before electronic tolling existed.
 
All electronic tolling gives the ability to eliminate the toll plaza entirely, making it a seamless high-speed freeway.
 

Very true.  But doesn't make it worthwhile to implement two-way tolling.  In general, the only reason you've come up with for two way tolling is...because they can.  Indications are, they won't.
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sprjus4

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #280 on: January 08, 2020, 04:31:16 PM »

Either 95/695/895 in the Baltimore area: $24.00
I-95 in Maryland: $48.00
Yikes.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #281 on: January 08, 2020, 04:57:10 PM »

There was quite a bit of truck traffic on US-301 last Sunday, so there are definitely folks taking advantage of the savings and lower stress of said route.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #282 on: January 08, 2020, 05:11:51 PM »

Oh, you are so sweet that you think that only costs $100,000.
So what is your general estimate?

The amount of hardware and construction for a major intersection is similar.
You shouldn't largely grab numbers out of the air.

It wouldn't cost $100 million to replace the bridge.
Where do you get all these cost estimates from?
What "cost estimate"?  He largely grabs numbers out of the air.
You and your buddy seem to think that it is my job to prove your $50 million and $100 million figures wrong.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #283 on: January 08, 2020, 05:53:25 PM »

Which direction of the CBB has more traffic? In any event, I do not like one-way tolling, unless tolling just one direction provides enough toll revenue for the entire facility (whether it is a roadway or a bridge). I do like the idea of converting the bridge to all-electronic tolling. The sooner 20th century tolling and toll booths are gone, the better.
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #284 on: January 08, 2020, 05:54:35 PM »

Oh, you are so sweet that you think that only costs $100,000.
So what is your general estimate?
The amount of hardware and construction for a major intersection is similar.
You shouldn't largely grab numbers out of the air.
So what is your estimate?

He seemed to be thinking that it would be crushingly expensive to install two-way AET.

No one else did but I did find out what MDTA is planning on tolling --

On the Eastern Shore side of the bridge, crews also will prepare for installation of overhead tolling gantries between the Bay Bridge and MD 8 on Kent Island.  Toll operations will no longer exist approaching the bridge from Annapolis once the overhead tolling gantries are operational on Kent Island.  Motorists traveling eastbound will be tolled as they get off the bridge.
https://mdta.maryland.gov/blog-category/mdta-news-releases/mdta-begins-construction-bring-all-electronic-tolling-bay-bridge

IOW the toll plaza will be replaced by AET but nothing is said about westbound tolling so we can surmise that that is not being changed by this project.  Maybe it will be done in a later phase.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #285 on: January 08, 2020, 06:08:23 PM »

My comments were in reply to posts regarding truckers shunning the I-95 tolls in favor of utilizing 301/50.
Since apparently we have ADD and constantly move the goalposts around, apparently we're now talking vacations or commuting.
There would be no toll shunning if we're simply going from an area relatively close to one side of this bridge to an area relatively close to another side of this bridge.  This bridge is the only reasonable option.
Only trucks and only between northern Delaware and Washington?

How much large truck AADT are we referring to?

But doesn't make it worthwhile to implement two-way tolling.  In general, the only reason you've come up with for two way tolling is...because they can. 
Maybe the time has come to eliminate that truck imbalance, where supposedly NB trucks are being discouraged to use the Bay Bridge and SB trucks are being encouraged to.  Let them stay on I-95 and the I-x95s, Baltimore is well served by them.
 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 06:12:29 PM by Beltway »
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #286 on: January 08, 2020, 06:47:01 PM »

So what is your estimate?

He seemed to be thinking that it would be crushingly expensive to install two-way AET.
My point is you got on me for producing an estimate "out of the air", and the Alps for questioning your response that provided a low-ball figure for an urban 12-lane bridge replacement.

I don't have any estimates for this particular project, but it wouldn't be expensive likely.

Let them stay on I-95 and the I-x95s, Baltimore is well served by them.
Per jeffandnicole...

Northbound I-95 is $81.00 vs. Northbound US-301 being $35.00 for a trucker.
Southbound I-95 is $33.00 vs. Southbound US-301 being $11.00 for a trucker.

A trucker isn't going to pay an additional $46.00 northbound and $22.00 southbound just to stay on I-95 for a single trip. If a trucker made frequent trips between either end of the two discussed routes, taking I-95 would add up fast. Hundreds, thousands, of dollars more expensive over time. Considering US-301 also has significantly less traffic, same distance, similar travel times, and completely avoids Baltimore, it's easily a better route for a trucker, and far less expensive.

Baltimore and I-95 all together already has traffic issues, no need to add to it by shoving more truck traffic through there, not that much would change to it anyways.

If you want more truck traffic on I-95, eliminate the $48.00 northbound toll at the Susquehanna River.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 07:11:23 PM by sprjus4 »
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #287 on: January 08, 2020, 07:29:57 PM »

Not to intercede between a good old-fashioned bashing, just pointing out that the impetus behind pretty much every one way tolling scheme everywhere was to reduce delays by providing more booths in the tolled direction and no impediment in the other. AET eliminates that concern, so in theory, every road should eventually return to 2-way tolling.

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #288 on: January 08, 2020, 07:54:26 PM »

I also mentioned about Alternatives. In order for people to avoid this toll, they have two choices. Either go all the way down to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, and pay a higher toll. Or go north and cross over 40 or I-95, both of which have eastbound tolls. So there's no real avoiding the tollway here eastbound.  Plus those distances to drive would takes someone a few hours to detour just to avoid this toll. So anyone driving one direction across the bridge, will most likely driving the other direction as well, unless their travels wouldn't take them both ways to begin with.

Thus, there is no reason to charge for both directions, when a single direction captures most of the two-way traffic anyway

If MdTA does two-way tolling on the Bay Bridge, I see no reason why they would not do so on the Hatem and Tydings Bridges as well.


At any rate, it is true that implementing two-way tolling does come at a cost compared to one-way tolling both in terms of set-up cost and in terms of operation. The marginal cost is, however, a lot less with AET than it is with manned booths.

As I see it, the question of whether to return to two-way tolling is determined largely by the traffic distorting effects of the tolls and whether having half the toll both ways might produce more favorable results.

The Boston tolls that were made two-way, for example, are all tolls it was possible to shunpike if you were willing to take a little extra time - so this would encourage people to use the crossings in the free eastbound direction, then go and take MA 99 the other way to avoid the toll. With two-way tolling, you now need to spend the extra time to take MA 99 both ways to not pay, and the money saved by doing it westbound is halved. Thus, some people who were shunpiking previously are bound to now decide it isn't worthwhile and start paying the toll more often. This causes a nominal decrease in traffic on the shunpike route and also a nominal increase in revenue.

In Maryland's case, going two-way at Hatem and Tydings may decrease the eastbound traffic over Conowingo Dam. Going two-way on the Bay Bridge doesn't do anything on its own, but if done in conjunction with the others it eliminates the ability to use US 301 + surface routes in Delaware as a long-distance shunpike route.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #289 on: January 08, 2020, 08:07:27 PM »

Not to intercede between a good old-fashioned bashing, just pointing out that the impetus behind pretty much every one way tolling scheme everywhere was to reduce delays by providing more booths in the tolled direction and no impediment in the other. AET eliminates that concern, so in theory, every road should eventually return to 2-way tolling.

Yes, as a (radio) spot for (Delaware) EZPass on one of the Wilmington stations in the early 2000's put it, "Pay your toll while you roll!"

ixnay
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #290 on: January 08, 2020, 08:53:52 PM »

So what is your estimate?  He seemed to be thinking that it would be crushingly expensive to install two-way AET.
My point is you got on me for producing an estimate "out of the air", and the Alps for questioning your response that provided a low-ball figure for an urban 12-lane bridge replacement.
Which 12-lane urban bridge was that?

I don't have any estimates for this particular project, but it wouldn't be expensive likely.
That was my whole point, from the beginning.

Let them stay on I-95 and the I-x95s, Baltimore is well served by them.
Per jeffandnicole...
Northbound I-95 is $81.00 vs. Northbound US-301 being $35.00 for a trucker.
Southbound I-95 is $33.00 vs. Southbound US-301 being $11.00 for a trucker.
OK, so the toll plaza near the Susquehanna River is one-way NB as well?  Answer=yes.

So there are more than one one-way toll plaza that are involved in these Maryland tolling imbalances.

Baltimore and I-95 all together already has traffic issues, no need to add to it by shoving more truck traffic through there, not that much would change to it anyways.
I-695 East has capacity to spare.

If you want more truck traffic on I-95, eliminate the $48.00 northbound toll at the Susquehanna River.
Or convert to AET and break it in half and have $24 each way.

Not to intercede between a good old-fashioned bashing, just pointing out that the impetus behind pretty much every one way tolling scheme everywhere was to reduce delays by providing more booths in the tolled direction and no impediment in the other. AET eliminates that concern, so in theory, every road should eventually return to 2-way tolling.

Exactly my point!
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #291 on: January 08, 2020, 09:11:47 PM »

Regarding round trips across the Bay Bridge, I've only done that once (when I went to the Delaware meet a couple of years ago and overnighted in Annapolis) that I remember. Every other time, it's been a one-way trip, to the best of my recollection.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #292 on: January 08, 2020, 09:31:54 PM »

^^^^

Whereas I can only think of two trips I’ve ever done one-way over the Bay Bridge, one this past June on my way north to Cooperstown and Toronto, the other in March 1991 when I took the scenic route home from Virginia Beach. All my other trips have been two-way, usually on the same day and frequently for golf trips but at least once for a funeral. But I guess that’s a difference between living in the area versus coming from elsewhere. As long as it’s not a summer weekend, a day trip to the Eastern Shore is a trivial distance for me.

The Bay Bridge is certainly distinguishable from, say, the Verrazzano, where New York should absolutely re-institute two-way tolling (with appropriate discount for Staten Island residents) because of the problems caused by people going through the city to avoid the ridiculous westbound toll, which I believe is now $19. My aunts, who live in Breezy Point, were down here two weeks ago and seemed to think the odds are two-way tolling there will return soon. But the Bay Bridge is a totally different situation from the Verrazzano.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #293 on: January 08, 2020, 11:08:59 PM »

^^^^

Whereas I can only think of two trips I’ve ever done one-way over the Bay Bridge, one this past June on my way north to Cooperstown and Toronto, the other in March 1991 when I took the scenic route home from Virginia Beach. All my other trips have been two-way, usually on the same day and frequently for golf trips but at least once for a funeral. But I guess that’s a difference between living in the area versus coming from elsewhere. As long as it’s not a summer weekend, a day trip to the Eastern Shore is a trivial distance for me.

The Bay Bridge is certainly distinguishable from, say, the Verrazzano, where New York should absolutely re-institute two-way tolling (with appropriate discount for Staten Island residents) because of the problems caused by people going through the city to avoid the ridiculous westbound toll, which I believe is now $19. My aunts, who live in Breezy Point, were down here two weeks ago and seemed to think the odds are two-way tolling there will return soon. But the Bay Bridge is a totally different situation from the Verrazzano.
I believe two-way is coming to the Verrazano shortly. The bigger wild-card is what PA will do at the Hudson crossings.

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #294 on: January 09, 2020, 05:28:52 AM »

Which 12-lane urban bridge was that?
I-264 over Witchduck Rd in Virginia Beach.

I-695 East has capacity to spare.
And adds 10 minutes and 10 miles. Might as well just take US-301 at that point.

Plus I-95 north and south of Baltimore doesn’t have much or any capacity to spare.

Or convert to AET and break it in half and have $24 each way.
Right now, it’s $46 more expensive northbound and $22 more expensive southbound to take I-95 vs. US-301. If you converted both the Susquehanna River and Chesapeake Bay Bridge tolls to two-way by splitting them, it would make both directions $34 more expensive to take I-95 vs. US-301. That would still make I-95 more expensive than US-301 including making I-95 southbound even more expensive.

If I was a trucker, I would still take US-301 both ways.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #295 on: January 09, 2020, 07:13:04 AM »

^^^^

Whereas I can only think of two trips I’ve ever done one-way over the Bay Bridge, one this past June on my way north to Cooperstown and Toronto, the other in March 1991 when I took the scenic route home from Virginia Beach. All my other trips have been two-way, usually on the same day and frequently for golf trips but at least once for a funeral. But I guess that’s a difference between living in the area versus coming from elsewhere. As long as it’s not a summer weekend, a day trip to the Eastern Shore is a trivial distance for me.

The Bay Bridge is certainly distinguishable from, say, the Verrazzano, where New York should absolutely re-institute two-way tolling (with appropriate discount for Staten Island residents) because of the problems caused by people going through the city to avoid the ridiculous westbound toll, which I believe is now $19. My aunts, who live in Breezy Point, were down here two weeks ago and seemed to think the odds are two-way tolling there will return soon. But the Bay Bridge is a totally different situation from the Verrazzano.
I believe two-way is coming to the Verrazano shortly. The bigger wild-card is what PA will do at the Hudson crossings.

My opinion is that the PA has to go two-way (at least at the Goethals, Outerbridge, and Bayonne) in response to the Verrazzano going back to two-way just to keep the tolls fair and consistent for all directions.  If they do not, traffic crossing the Verazzano EB coming from NJ would pay up to $25.50 while WB would only be $9.50.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #296 on: January 09, 2020, 09:56:06 AM »

Let's give it a little thought this way.  Probably not gonna help, but what the heck...

You go to a museum.  You pay an entrance fee of $10.  You walk around, and you leave.

Let's say the museum decides to charge a two-way rate.  They reduce the admission price to $5. You walk around.  When you leave, suddenly there additional employees there, with computer equipment, desks, etc, charging you $5 to exit.  Why bother?

That's the same thing with tolling.  You're eventually going to return anyway.  Sure, there's a few that may take an alternate route, but most people are going to return the same way they came.

So what is the cost of that, maybe $100,000?  About the cost of signalizing an intersection.
Tiny cost compared to one of their major rehab projects, which for the westbound span is $27 million.
Oh, you are so sweet that you think that only costs $100,000.
So what is your general estimate?

So working way too long on this, it's hard to find agencies who actually release item-by-item bid results. So I went to the NJTA for their overall construction of Exit 125, which including, among many other things, a new exit for electronic tolling. The Bid results are here: https://www.njta.com/media/2245/p300229.pdf.  You'll see, if you zoom in, that full sign structures, which are needed in advance of the electronic tolling point, are in the $150,000 - $250,000 range.  And that's not even the actual tolling point.  Yes, prices in NJ are going to be higher than most other states, including MD, but just this one sign structure alone blows out your cute $100,000 estimiate for the entire project.  Look at all the conduit and other electrical items needed as well.  There's a lot that goes into these projects...way more than just a few transponders and something to hold them overhead.

If you don't like my example, feel free to scour the internet to find a better one.

The amount of hardware and construction for a major intersection is similar.

Quote
In such a setup, one-way tolling is a flawed pricing process.  Each direction should be tolled at half of the one-way rate.
I can't help but notice you continually avoid my remarks regarding the lack of alternatives, making 2 way tolling useless because nearly the same number of vehicles will be making round trips anyway.
There are many other trip pairs other than going to I-95 in northern Delaware.

I go to Easton and St. Michaels which are roughly 30 miles east of the Bay Bridge.

What about all the other trip pairs, including to the Atlantic beaches?

I don't know dude.  My example was in direct relation to another question.  But ok, your trip pair.  You cross once.  You cross back again.  Does it matter if they charge you for a full round trip, or two one way trips?  Yes, on occasion maybe you head up north and take 95 South, or you cross via the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel.  But they're rare trip diversions.

Not to intercede between a good old-fashioned bashing, just pointing out that the impetus behind pretty much every one way tolling scheme everywhere was to reduce delays by providing more booths in the tolled direction and no impediment in the other. AET eliminates that concern, so in theory, every road should eventually return to 2-way tolling.

At double the cost though.  And it wouldn't be for one toll plaza, but for every toll plaza.  Let's use the Delaware River for example:  Every toll bridge would need to construct a tolling point for EB traffic.  A lot of money considering that nearly everyone crossing one way will also be crossing the other way eventually.  And you just double the cost of collecting the uncollected tolls, which bring in half of what the toll had been.



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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #297 on: January 09, 2020, 12:43:16 PM »

Let's say the museum decides to charge a two-way rate.  They reduce the admission price to $5. You walk around.  When you leave, suddenly there additional employees there, with computer equipment, desks, etc, charging you $5 to exit.  Why bother?
That's the same thing with tolling.  You're eventually going to return anyway.  Sure, there's a few that may take an alternate route, but most people are going to return the same way they came.
I would not logically make a comparison to a museum fee.  You pay for a day use of the museum.

Paying in that manner for a bridge would be paying on entry to the bridge and then paying again when you exit the bridge on the same trip.

There are some widely space returns.  Someone goes to the beaches and then comes back a week later.

There are non-linear journeys such as one-sided, three-sided, four-sided, etc.  Someone goes from Richmond to Easton to Philadelphia to Baltimore and back to Richmond.  Someone goes from Richmond to Virginia Beach to Easton and back to Richmond.  A college student goes from Cambridge to University of Maryland and spends the whole semester there.  Those are all one-way uses.

Hundreds of other possibilities.

Two-way tolling matches the actual use of the bridge in every case.  One-way tolling does not in numbers of cases.

Oh, you are so sweet that you think that only costs $100,000.
So what is your general estimate?
So working way too long on this, it's hard to find agencies who actually release item-by-item bid results. So I went to the NJTA for their overall construction of Exit 125, which including, among many other things, a new exit for electronic tolling. The Bid results are here: https://www.njta.com/media/2245/p300229.pdf.  You'll see, if you zoom in, that full sign structures, which are needed in advance of the electronic tolling point, are in the $150,000 - $250,000 range.  And that's not even the actual tolling point.
A large project with a low bid of $77,309,013.13.

It would be rather difficult to separate out the items for electronic tolling.

How about this?  I spent 10 minutes looking at about 10 news articles and MDTA releases about this project, and none of them even mentioned the cost of this.  I find that frustrating as it would be the best way to estimate the cost of adding AET for one direction; but it also hints that the cost is low enough that it is not a major expenditure for MDTA. 

Then there are a variety of sign structures already in place that may be usable for readers and informational signs.

So what if I was off even by a factor of 10, and it would cost $1 million?  Still a small cost in the overall scheme building, operating, rehabbing and maintaining the Bay Bridge.
 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 01:16:47 PM by Beltway »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #298 on: January 09, 2020, 01:00:49 PM »

Let's say the museum decides to charge a two-way rate.  They reduce the admission price to $5. You walk around.  When you leave, suddenly there additional employees there, with computer equipment, desks, etc, charging you $5 to exit.  Why bother?
That's the same thing with tolling.  You're eventually going to return anyway.  Sure, there's a few that may take an alternate route, but most people are going to return the same way they came.
I would not logically make a comparison to a museum fee.  You pay for a day use of the museum.

Paying in that manner for a bridge would be paying on entry to the bridge and then paying again when you exit the bridge on the same trip.

There are some widely space returns.  Someone goes to the beaches and then comes back a week later.

There are non-linear journeys such as one-sided, three-sided, four-sided, etc.  Someone goes from Richmond to Easton to Philadelphia to Baltimore and back to Richmond.  Someone goes from Richmond to Virginia Beach to Easton and back to Richmond.  A college student goes from Cambridge to University of Maryland and spends the whole semester there.  Those are all one-way uses.

Hundreds of other possibilities.

Two-way tolling matches the actual use of the bridge in every case.  One-way tolling does not in numbers of cases.

Oh, you are so sweet that you think that only costs $100,000.
So what is your general estimate?
So working way too long on this, it's hard to find agencies who actually release item-by-item bid results. So I went to the NJTA for their overall construction of Exit 125, which including, among many other things, a new exit for electronic tolling. The Bid results are here: https://www.njta.com/media/2245/p300229.pdf.  You'll see, if you zoom in, that full sign structures, which are needed in advance of the electronic tolling point, are in the $150,000 - $250,000 range.  And that's not even the actual tolling point.
A large project with a low bid of $77,309,013.13.

It would be rather difficult to separate out the items for electronic tolling.

How about this?  I spent 10 minutes looking at about 10 news articles and MDTA releases about this project, and none of them even mentioned the cost of this.  I find that frustrating as it would be the best way to estimate the cost of adding AET for one direction; but it also hints that the cost is low enough that it is not a major expenditure for MDTA. 

Then there are a variety of sign structures already in place that may be usable for readers and informational signs.

So what if I was off even by a factor of 10, and it would cost $1 million?  Still a small cost in the overall scheme building, operating, rehabbing and maintaining the Bay Bridge.


I spent, no kidding, a few hours on this.  Couldn't find anything related to Maryland bid results.  Best I could do was this.  I knew it wouldn't be enough for you, I knew you would read and dissect it, and even when I tried to find the specific line items to present an some sort of proof to show your $100k figure was lowballed, it still isn't enough for you. 

But I'm glad you spent 10 minutes.  And what conclusion did you come up with?  Another random number, which you seem to like to toss out.

Oh well.  Guess you can write a few dozen letters to Maryland telling them to two-way toll the bridge because some dude may travel to Easton and not return on the bridge.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #299 on: January 09, 2020, 01:16:32 PM »

How about this?  I spent 10 minutes looking at about 10 news articles and MDTA releases about this project, and none of them even mentioned the cost of this.  I find that frustrating as it would be the best way to estimate the cost of adding AET for one direction; but it also hints that the cost is low enough that it is not a major expenditure for MDTA. 
Then there are a variety of sign structures already in place that may be usable for readers and informational signs.
So what if I was off even by a factor of 10, and it would cost $1 million?  Still a small cost in the overall scheme building, operating, rehabbing and maintaining the Bay Bridge.
I spent, no kidding, a few hours on this.  Couldn't find anything related to Maryland bid results.  Best I could do was this.  I knew it wouldn't be enough for you, I knew you would read and dissect it, and even when I tried to find the specific line items to present an some sort of proof to show your $100k figure was lowballed, it still isn't enough for you. 
But I'm glad you spent 10 minutes.  And what conclusion did you come up with?  Another random number, which you seem to like to toss out.
My conclusion was that MDTA did not publicize the figure and that it wasn't enough for them to feel the need to report.

If I was to tally up the number of hours I have spent writing posts in this one thread, it would be embarrassingly large and certainly way more than "a few hours."

But since I don't keep a spreadsheet ledger of time spent per post, I can't provide any precise figure.

Oh well.  Guess you can write a few dozen letters to Maryland telling them to two-way toll the bridge because some dude may travel to Easton and not return on the bridge.
It would take traffic origin and destination studies and traffic engineering analysis to produce hard numbers on the number of non-linear trips.

The bridge had two-way tolling from 1952 to 1989, and one-way tolling since then.  That is 37 and 31 years respectively, and it makes sense that that is long enough that a return to two-way tolling would be studied as a separate project.
 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 01:22:53 PM by Beltway »
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