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Author Topic: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)  (Read 44625 times)

jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #300 on: January 09, 2020, 01:39:52 PM »

How about this?  I spent 10 minutes looking at about 10 news articles and MDTA releases about this project, and none of them even mentioned the cost of this.  I find that frustrating as it would be the best way to estimate the cost of adding AET for one direction; but it also hints that the cost is low enough that it is not a major expenditure for MDTA. 
Then there are a variety of sign structures already in place that may be usable for readers and informational signs.
So what if I was off even by a factor of 10, and it would cost $1 million?  Still a small cost in the overall scheme building, operating, rehabbing and maintaining the Bay Bridge.
I spent, no kidding, a few hours on this.  Couldn't find anything related to Maryland bid results.  Best I could do was this.  I knew it wouldn't be enough for you, I knew you would read and dissect it, and even when I tried to find the specific line items to present an some sort of proof to show your $100k figure was lowballed, it still isn't enough for you. 
But I'm glad you spent 10 minutes.  And what conclusion did you come up with?  Another random number, which you seem to like to toss out.
My conclusion was that MDTA did not publicize the figure and that it wasn't enough for them to feel the need to report.

Or it was overly embarrassing.

Depending on the State, everything is available on the net. 

Using NJ as an example, I can go to this page https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/business/procurement/ConstrServ/awards20.shtm , and view the bid results of every project NJDOT put out to bid since Fiscal Year 2011, and the price of every line item bid on.  Most never get a press release; most never see the media...but the state has that info available.  The NJ Turnpike Authority has a similar page.  Doesn't matter if the final pricetag is less than a million or over $100 million, it's available for public viewing.
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #301 on: January 09, 2020, 02:07:20 PM »

My conclusion was that MDTA did not publicize the figure and that it wasn't enough for them to feel the need to report.
Or it was overly embarrassing.
Depending on the State, everything is available on the net. 
Private sector news sources didn't either, unless I missed them.

They certainly could have obtained the figure if they wanted to.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #302 on: January 09, 2020, 03:17:53 PM »

The museum example is apples and oranges compared to this.

Thinking back on some of my journeys across the Bay Bridge, the first time was a family vacation in the early 80s. We went from DC across the bay to the eastern shore, then down to Norfolk. A one-way crossing.

Unfortunately, with my site being down, I can't go back and look at old photo albums to see pics from those trips, but I think I used the bridge eastbound to get to Cape May to ride the ferry back in 2010.

I drove westbound only coming home from the Saturday-Sunday Norfolk-Cambridge meets in 2014.

I think I also drove it westbound only on at least one other occasion, but can't be certain.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #303 on: January 13, 2020, 01:17:44 AM »

Shunpiking is a real thing.  People certainly take advantage of a close bridge in the free direction and then go around the long way to avoid the "double toll" that does exist because of one way tolling.  I can't speak specifically of the Bay Bridge, but I can tell you countless times that I have done a round trip on other crossings by going the free direction on a toll bridge and then a slightly longer but free shunpike in the other direction.

Examples that I have used:

PA-NJ crossings are tolled westbound.  Use the closest one eastbound, and use a cheaper or free bridge westbound.  Especially for a long distance trip like NYC-DC via Philly, it may not be so hard to make use of the Trenton Makes Bridge to avoid a toll.

NJ-NY crossings are tolled eastbound.  In my experience, the first free Hudson crossing is really far away in Upstate.  But, the Tappan Zee is cheaper than the PA crossings and the Bear Mtn Bridge is even cheaper.  So if you are headed somewhere north of the city (Westchester, Connecticut), you may want to use the Bear Mtn Bridge eastbound and take the GWB westbound.

And of course, I generally use the Verrazano as part of my trips from DC to Queens, but almost never on the way back because of the huge tolls.  You can get from Queens to NJ completely free by travelling on an East River bridge to Manhattan and then using GWB or one of the tunnels into NJ.  This is well known and is one of the reasons that they are exploring two way tolling on the Verrazano as well as Manhattan congestion pricing.

By converting those to two-way tolls, you can charge everyone and not give anyone the benefit of the freebie.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #304 on: January 13, 2020, 06:18:49 AM »

Shunpiking is a real thing.  People certainly take advantage of a close bridge in the free direction and then go around the long way to avoid the "double toll" that does exist because of one way tolling.  I can't speak specifically of the Bay Bridge, but I can tell you countless times that I have done a round trip on other crossings by going the free direction on a toll bridge and then a slightly longer but free shunpike in the other direction.

Examples that I have used:

PA-NJ crossings are tolled westbound.  Use the closest one eastbound, and use a cheaper or free bridge westbound.  Especially for a long distance trip like NYC-DC via Philly, it may not be so hard to make use of the Trenton Makes Bridge to avoid a toll.

NJ-NY crossings are tolled eastbound.  In my experience, the first free Hudson crossing is really far away in Upstate.  But, the Tappan Zee is cheaper than the PA crossings and the Bear Mtn Bridge is even cheaper.  So if you are headed somewhere north of the city (Westchester, Connecticut), you may want to use the Bear Mtn Bridge eastbound and take the GWB westbound.

And of course, I generally use the Verrazano as part of my trips from DC to Queens, but almost never on the way back because of the huge tolls.  You can get from Queens to NJ completely free by travelling on an East River bridge to Manhattan and then using GWB or one of the tunnels into NJ.  This is well known and is one of the reasons that they are exploring two way tolling on the Verrazano as well as Manhattan congestion pricing.

By converting those to two-way tolls, you can charge everyone and not give anyone the benefit of the freebie.

For NYC to DC, in order to use the Trenton Makes, you can Exit at 7A from the NJ Tpk, drive 195 to 29, exit, loop around Market Street, then pick up the Trenton Makes. After the bridge, pick up Rt. 1 South to 95 South.  Not only do you avoid the bridge toll, you avoid paying the rest of the toll on the NJ Turnpike.

BUT...what if the tolls become 2 way?  Are you now wiling to pay 2 one way tolls equal to the single one way toll you were avoiding?  Would you pay $2.50 to cross the Delaware Memorial going North, but continue to shunpike on the way South?  Or are you going to want to take 95 North thru Philly, jump on US 1 North, exit to take the Trenton Makes into Trenton, then take 29 to 195 to the NJ Turnpike Northbound as well, still avoiding the tolls?

If everyone currently does what you did, the congestion thru Morrisville would be insane.  In fact, that was one of the worries when they started charging tolls on the Scudder Falls Bridge, that a lot of people would detour onto 29 and take the free Calhoun Bridge. It turns out that detour was just too far, and people accepted the fact that their free bridge into PA will now cost them. 

So, there's a few people that will take detours and add time to their travels to avoid a one way toll.  But for most, they're going to just suck it up and pay.  Which means for most, they'll be going over the toll bridge twice anyway, which still make it more economical to the bridge authorities to charge for a single toll. As I pointed out, if someone is willing to go thru the measures to avoid 1 toll, most likely they'll go thru the measures to avoid 2 tolls.
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74/171FAN

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #305 on: January 13, 2020, 07:10:02 AM »

Quote
In my experience, the first free Hudson crossing is really far away in Upstate.

This would be the US 9/US 20 Dunn Memorial Bridge in Albany.   The Berkshire Spur crossing is part of the Thruway system so I do not count that one.
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #306 on: January 13, 2020, 07:17:20 AM »

So, there's a few people that will take detours and add time to their travels to avoid a one way toll.  But for most, they're going to just suck it up and pay.  Which means for most, they'll be going over the toll bridge twice anyway, which still make it more economical to the bridge authorities to charge for a single toll.
So what is "most," maybe 2/3?

One-way tolling was a creation of increasing traffic volumes that made traditional two-way toll plazas to be converted to one way in order to double the capacity without expanding the toll plaza, back in the days when electronic toll collection had not been invented.

All electronic tolling (AET) makes that an anachronism.  The additional costs to the agency are minimal and two-way tolling properly matches how the facility is used.
 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 07:19:57 AM by Beltway »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #307 on: January 13, 2020, 08:08:16 AM »

So, there's a few people that will take detours and add time to their travels to avoid a one way toll.  But for most, they're going to just suck it up and pay.  Which means for most, they'll be going over the toll bridge twice anyway, which still make it more economical to the bridge authorities to charge for a single toll.
So what is "most," maybe 2/3?

3/3.

For the most part, most people coming over will be returning the same direction.  There's gonna be a few that won't, but there's also a few that will pay the toll that won't return the same way.   The deviation isn't significant enough to warrant the cost for 2 way tolling; otherwise they would do it under the same project to convert from cash tolling to all AET tolling.

Quote
One-way tolling was a creation of increasing traffic volumes that blah blah blah.

We know.  It's been repeated ad nausem the past week.

Quote
The additional costs to the agency are minimal and two-way tolling properly matches how the facility is used.

Site documentation.
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #308 on: January 13, 2020, 08:37:05 AM »

So, there's a few people that will take detours and add time to their travels to avoid a one way toll.  But for most, they're going to just suck it up and pay.  Which means for most, they'll be going over the toll bridge twice anyway, which still make it more economical to the bridge authorities to charge for a single toll.
So what is "most," maybe 2/3?
3/3.
Already deconstructed in detail and dismissed.

Are you the "beneficiary" of one-way tolling?
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #309 on: January 13, 2020, 09:07:10 AM »

So, there's a few people that will take detours and add time to their travels to avoid a one way toll.  But for most, they're going to just suck it up and pay.  Which means for most, they'll be going over the toll bridge twice anyway, which still make it more economical to the bridge authorities to charge for a single toll.
So what is "most," maybe 2/3?
3/3.
Already deconstructed in detail and dismissed.



Site documentation, other than "Well, a few times I drove one way and came home the other way".

The AADT in the area around the bridge is in excess of 70,000.  I tried finding out how much of that is EB/WB, but unable to do so. 


Are you the "beneficiary" of one-way tolling?

I live in South Jersey.  Anytime I cross a bridge into Delaware or the Philly region, I'm paying the toll.  I'm not driving 80 miles or 2 hours out of my way to save on the tolls for what is often a 15 minute ride into the city.  The most I would do is, if I'm going to some place south of Wilmington, DE, is cross the $4 Delaware Memorial and come back on the Commodore Barry, which would've been a $5 toll WB.  But, I've also crossed on the $5 Walt Whitman, done stuff in Philly, drove to Delaware, and returned on the Delaware Memorial.

In terms of the thread here, I have gone down 1 to 301 to 50 and crossed toll free on the CBB.  But, hey, I live in NJ.  If I'm down in the DC area, I have to come back somehow.  Unless I drive at least 30 minutes out of my way to take the US 1 bridge, I'm paying a NB/EB toll.  And that toll is in MD.  So Maryland is getting my money somehow.

The way 1 way tolling is set up, most people are going to be paying a toll unless they venture far away from the highway.  Any one of us that have taken US 1 over the Susquehanna have probably noticed there's no significant traffic deviation from 95 to US 1 to avoid the $8 toll.  It's not in the toll agency's best interest to spend the money for two way tolling when one way tolling does the job, because other than a few mininal people, no one is taking the additional time and mileage to avoid the toll on 95.

So to answer your question, no, I'm not a beneficiary of one way tolling.  I'm a beneficiary of a toll agency not wasting my toll money by spending money operating twice the equipment to do the same job the current equipment is doing.

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #310 on: January 13, 2020, 09:57:32 AM »

Its a simple question of a Cost-Benefits Analysis, right?
What are the extra costs one-time and ongoing to institute two-way tolling (of which no one has been able to figure out here yet)?

And...is there that much more WB-only traffic vs EB-only traffic to justify the extra cost?
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #311 on: January 13, 2020, 10:38:55 AM »

So what is "most," maybe 2/3?
3/3.
Already deconstructed in detail and dismissed.
Site documentation, other than "Well, a few times I drove one way and came home the other way".
The AADT in the area around the bridge is in excess of 70,000.  I tried finding out how much of that is EB/WB, but unable to do so. 
Like I said it would require origin-and-destination traffic engineering studies, to determine exact numbers.

Given the inter-state and regional highway configurations and the one-way tolling, the Bay Bridge is probably in the 65-70% range, certainly not 100% as you claim.

In terms of the thread here, I have gone down 1 to 301 to 50 and crossed toll free on the CBB.  But, hey, I live in NJ.  If I'm down in the DC area, I have to come back somehow.  Unless I drive at least 30 minutes out of my way to take the US 1 bridge, I'm paying a NB/EB toll.  And that toll is in MD.  So Maryland is getting my money somehow.
That's you.  Other persons and their individual trips and journeys can be quite different.

So to answer your question, no, I'm not a beneficiary of one way tolling.  I'm a beneficiary of a toll agency not wasting my toll money by spending money operating twice the equipment to do the same job the current equipment is doing.
The removal of the toll plaza, enabled by implementation AET, would remove huge costs for roadway maintenance, toll booth maintenance, electronic and electrical systems maintenance, and staffing costs.

Two-way AET costs would be minimal compared to those costs.

Elimination of the Bay Bridge toll plaza also by my calculations returns 4 acres of paved land back to the natural environment.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #312 on: January 13, 2020, 11:21:35 AM »

So what is "most," maybe 2/3?
3/3.
Already deconstructed in detail and dismissed.
Site documentation, other than "Well, a few times I drove one way and came home the other way".
The AADT in the area around the bridge is in excess of 70,000.  I tried finding out how much of that is EB/WB, but unable to do so. 
Like I said it would require origin-and-destination traffic engineering studies, to determine exact numbers.

Given the inter-state and regional highway configurations and the one-way tolling, the Bay Bridge is probably in the 65-70% range, certainly not 100% as you claim.

In terms of the thread here, I have gone down 1 to 301 to 50 and crossed toll free on the CBB.  But, hey, I live in NJ.  If I'm down in the DC area, I have to come back somehow.  Unless I drive at least 30 minutes out of my way to take the US 1 bridge, I'm paying a NB/EB toll.  And that toll is in MD.  So Maryland is getting my money somehow.
That's you.  Other persons and their individual trips and journeys can be quite different.

So to answer your question, no, I'm not a beneficiary of one way tolling.  I'm a beneficiary of a toll agency not wasting my toll money by spending money operating twice the equipment to do the same job the current equipment is doing.
The removal of the toll plaza, enabled by implementation AET, would remove huge costs for roadway maintenance, toll booth maintenance, electronic and electrical systems maintenance, and staffing costs.

Two-way AET costs would be minimal compared to those costs.

Elimination of the Bay Bridge toll plaza also by my calculations returns 4 acres of paved land back to the natural environment.

Honestly, you're crazy.  You have cut and trimmed my quotes, then said things I didn't say.  I've answered questions, only for you to constantly move the bar and goalposts.  You've yet to site any documentation for anything you speak of.   

In the end - guess what?  The toll agency isn't implementing 2 way tolls.  Go to their meetings and tell them to, then bicker and argue with them non-stop about this issue when they tell you basically what they've told me.
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #313 on: January 13, 2020, 11:48:34 AM »

So what is "most," maybe 2/3?
3/3.
Already deconstructed in detail and dismissed.
Site documentation, other than "Well, a few times I drove one way and came home the other way".
The AADT in the area around the bridge is in excess of 70,000.  I tried finding out how much of that is EB/WB, but unable to do so. 
Like I said it would require origin-and-destination traffic engineering studies, to determine exact numbers.

Given the inter-state and regional highway configurations and the one-way tolling, the Bay Bridge is probably in the 65-70% range, certainly not 100% as you claim.

In terms of the thread here, I have gone down 1 to 301 to 50 and crossed toll free on the CBB.  But, hey, I live in NJ.  If I'm down in the DC area, I have to come back somehow.  Unless I drive at least 30 minutes out of my way to take the US 1 bridge, I'm paying a NB/EB toll.  And that toll is in MD.  So Maryland is getting my money somehow.
That's you.  Other persons and their individual trips and journeys can be quite different.

So to answer your question, no, I'm not a beneficiary of one way tolling.  I'm a beneficiary of a toll agency not wasting my toll money by spending money operating twice the equipment to do the same job the current equipment is doing.
The removal of the toll plaza, enabled by implementation AET, would remove huge costs for roadway maintenance, toll booth maintenance, electronic and electrical systems maintenance, and staffing costs.

Two-way AET costs would be minimal compared to those costs.

Elimination of the Bay Bridge toll plaza also by my calculations returns 4 acres of paved land back to the natural environment.
Honestly, you're crazy. 
Personal attack.

You have cut and trimmed my quotes, then said things I didn't say.
I said things that I said, it is all above.

I said 2/3, you replied 3/3, hence my 100% remark, still above.

You cited your trips across the Delaware River, I said other people have different trips and journeys.

You said, "spending money operating twice the equipment to do the same job the current equipment is doing," I explained what would happen after AET is implemented, still above.

I've answered questions, only for you to constantly move the bar and goalposts.
I am merely making comments about the Bay Bridge tolling, I am not looking at anyone's "goalposts."

You've yet to site any documentation for anything you speak of.   
Pot-kettle.

In the end - guess what?  The toll agency isn't implementing 2 way tolls.  Go to their meetings and tell them to, then bicker and argue with them non-stop about this issue when they tell you basically what they've told me.
Not yet, but the issue will come forward, as it is with the Verrazano Bridge.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #314 on: January 13, 2020, 12:35:26 PM »

I'm responding this last time, then cutting myself off from this subject with you.




I said 2/3, you replied 3/3, hence my 100% remark, still above.

No. You trimmed my comment.  My full comment related to traffic volumes:

3/3.  For the most part, most people coming over will be returning the same direction.  There's gonna be a few that won't, but there's also a few that will pay the toll that won't return the same way.




You cited your trips across the Delaware River, I said other people have different trips and journeys.

This was in direct response to the below comment. 

Are you the "beneficiary" of one-way tolling?

You asked me a question about my personal travels; I provided an answer.  You didn't ask me about the universe.  You asked me about me.




You've yet to site any documentation for anything you speak of.   
Pot-kettle.

Not even close.  Any figures I've provided, I have or can provide documentation for.

I provided all the toll rates for various bridges, tunnels and roads in MD and DE applicable to this discussion.  https://mdta.maryland.gov/Toll_Rates/rates_Index.html and https://deldot.gov/public.ejs?command=PublicTollRateUS301

The AADT in the area around the bridge is in excess of 70,000.  I tried finding out how much of that is EB/WB, but unable to do so.

Derived from: https://www.roads.maryland.gov/Traffic_Volume_Maps/Traffic_Volume_Maps.pdf .  Click on AnneArundel & QueenAnnes Counties.

Also, I provided the below with an explanation of it was the best I could do based on my research.  You choose to read further into it by announcing the total cost, including parts not applicable to our discussion.

So working way too long on this, it's hard to find agencies who actually release item-by-item bid results. So I went to the NJTA for their overall construction of Exit 125, which including, among many other things, a new exit for electronic tolling. The Bid results are here: https://www.njta.com/media/2245/p300229.pdf.  You'll see, if you zoom in, that full sign structures, which are needed in advance of the electronic tolling point, are in the $150,000 - $250,000 range.  And that's not even the actual tolling point.  Yes, prices in NJ are going to be higher than most other states, including MD, but just this one sign structure alone blows out your cute $100,000 estimiate for the entire project.  Look at all the conduit and other electrical items needed as well.  There's a lot that goes into these projects...way more than just a few transponders and something to hold them overhead.




In the end - guess what?  The toll agency isn't implementing 2 way tolls.  Go to their meetings and tell them to, then bicker and argue with them non-stop about this issue when they tell you basically what they've told me.
Not yet, but the issue will come forward, as it is with the Verrazano Bridge.

Maybe it will.  Maybe it won't.  For the time being, there's absolutely no discussion in regards to reviewing it.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #315 on: January 13, 2020, 01:39:33 PM »

I'm honestly surprised at how many people will shunpike just for the sake of shunpiking. At some point, there are diminished returns for not paying the toll. Mileage, gas, and time savings should all factor into account. I'd never consider getting off I-65 in downtown Louisville and using the US 31 bridge, and having to put up with all the traffic lights and congestion, just for the sake of not paying a toll. Nor would I drive out of my way via I-64 or I-264 and then I-64, and then I-265.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #316 on: January 13, 2020, 02:44:00 PM »

I'm honestly surprised at how many people will shunpike just for the sake of shunpiking. At some point, there are diminished returns for not paying the toll. Mileage, gas, and time savings should all factor into account. I'd never consider getting off I-65 in downtown Louisville and using the US 31 bridge, and having to put up with all the traffic lights and congestion, just for the sake of not paying a toll. Nor would I drive out of my way via I-64 or I-264 and then I-64, and then I-265.
Likewise you could 'shunpike' the Baltimore tunnels by taking the I-695 Beltway west around the city.  What is 15 more miles if you are on a 200+ mile trip?

I never have done that if the tunnels were uncongested, even back when there was only the one tunnel, and there was no electronic tolling back then, and tolls were collected in both directions.  For that matter the Beltway had 6 lanes and was a more modern design than the 4-lane Harbor Tunnel Thruway.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #317 on: January 13, 2020, 04:20:54 PM »

I'm honestly surprised at how many people will shunpike just for the sake of shunpiking. At some point, there are diminished returns for not paying the toll. Mileage, gas, and time savings should all factor into account. I'd never consider getting off I-65 in downtown Louisville and using the US 31 bridge, and having to put up with all the traffic lights and congestion, just for the sake of not paying a toll. Nor would I drive out of my way via I-64 or I-264 and then I-64, and then I-265.
Here in Chesapeake, VA, a 6 mile freeway built parallel to a rural 2-lane highway charges $8 one-way during peak season and saves at best 5-10 minutes. Not something I'd ever pay. Many avoid it, though many from out of state bound to the Outer Banks to spend thousands of dollars have no issue putting down $8 each way. During off-peak, it's $3 one-way, and all the time, including peak, it's only $0.75 one-way if you're enrolled in the discount program. It costs $3 per month for discounted tolls every trip. Very good savings for a commuter, however many still avoid it on a daily basis. The expressway has 33,000 AADT north of the toll, 10,000 AADT on the toll portion, and 28,000 AADT south of the toll. In the toll portion, parallel free Battlefield Blvd carries 20,000 AADT.

Also in the city, Dominion Blvd was upgraded from a 2-lane roadway with a draw bridge over the Elizabeth River to a 4-lane freeway with two fixed span bridges over the river and 3 urban interchanges, though went from a free road to a toll road at the bridges once completed, now charging up to $1.16 each way. Most traffic still opts to use it, though about 5,000 AADT has diverted to other, out of the way, and more congested routes that add at least 20-35 minutes each way during peak hours and 10-15 miles onto what would be a 3 mile trip. When it comes to toll roads, this is the one I use the most, at least 5 times per month, more in some cases. Well worth the $1.16 each way, and saves a decent amount of time during congested periods. Contrary to VA-168, which rarely I even go to south of the toll road on that corridor, but when I do, I will for the most part use the parallel 2-lane road without question, deliberately exiting at the last exit before toll from the freeway and re-joining it south of the toll road. I've only used it during congested times during off-peak season, on a couple long-distance trips down to the Outer Banks where $3 was a wash on a long-distance drive, and sometimes at night in poor weather conditions.

What is 15 more miles if you are on a 200+ mile trip?
According to you, vanity.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 04:34:06 PM by sprjus4 »
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odditude

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #318 on: January 13, 2020, 04:41:28 PM »

Likewise you could 'shunpike' the Baltimore tunnels by taking the I-695 Beltway west around the city.  What is 15 more miles if you are on a 200+ mile trip?

it's ~15 less minutes in the car - and when I've been driving that long, I (and my passengers) want those 15 minutes more than I want to avoid the toll for the tunnel.
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sprjus4

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #319 on: January 13, 2020, 04:42:42 PM »

Likewise you could 'shunpike' the Baltimore tunnels by taking the I-695 Beltway west around the city.  What is 15 more miles if you are on a 200+ mile trip?

it's ~15 less minutes in the car - and when I've been driving that long, I (and my passengers) want those 15 minutes more than I want to avoid the toll for the tunnel.
Especially when I-695 is congested as much as the tunnels.
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #320 on: January 13, 2020, 05:21:03 PM »

Also in the city, Dominion Blvd was upgraded from a 2-lane roadway with a draw bridge over the Elizabeth River to a 4-lane freeway with two fixed span bridges over the river and 3 urban interchanges, though went from a free road to a toll road at the bridges once completed, now charging up to $1.16 each way.
I drove it yesterday in both directions, just to see the new highway again.  Side trip branch off of I-64 which I did need I-64 for my trip.  A rather low toll especially when you AET it.

What is 15 more miles if you are on a 200+ mile trip?
According to you, vanity.
You missed my sarcasm...
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #321 on: January 13, 2020, 05:41:19 PM »

A rather low toll especially when you AET it.
Agreed. The toll was originally planned to be $2.30 with an E-ZPass in the beginning, then increase annually. However, an additional $86 million in Regional Transportation Funds were made available for the project which enabled the toll to be reduced to $1.00, increasing annually. Much less expensive than the VA-168 toll, and far more valuable of a toll to pay.

A very successful project IMO, especially considering it was developed by the city and not VDOT. The same applies with the VA-168 Chesapeake Expressway and VA-168 Oak Grove Connector. The next major undertaking needs to be expanding the VA-168 corridor from 4 to 8 lanes between I-64 and VA-165 including a parallel 4-lane bridge over the Intracoastal Waterway providing 65 ft of vertical clearance, and a major overhaul of the Oak Grove Interchange including at least two 2-lane flyovers. The interchange at VA-168 Business also needs an improvement, the substandard cloverleaf cannot handle the volumes at peak hours. My opinion is that converting to a diverging diamond would satisfy a lot of the problems. The interchange with VA-165 also has traffic issues, though is planned to be converted to a displaced left turn diamond interchange starting around 2025, a city developed project costing around $5 million.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 05:49:28 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #322 on: January 14, 2020, 12:21:23 AM »

A rather low toll especially when you AET it.
Agreed. The toll was originally planned to be $2.30 with an E-ZPass in the beginning, then increase annually. However, an additional $86 million in Regional Transportation Funds were made available for the project which enabled the toll to be reduced to $1.00, increasing annually. Much less expensive than the VA-168 toll, and far more valuable of a toll to pay.
Also, only the bridge over the river is tolled.

So the two interchanges on US-17 to the east of the bridge provide northerly access without a toll.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #323 on: January 19, 2020, 08:43:11 AM »

Some trucking companies force routing to avoid toll roads, i haven't worked for one but i know for a fact at least one that likes red trucks and is from Wisconsin does. You cannot use the Jane Adams Toll Road, must use US20. They perfer 94 through chicago instead of 294, and you cannot use the chicago skyway to avoid traffic on 94 and 80/94 going to lake station, if your final destination authorizes the use of the indiana toll road.

In a truck i have used my perogative to use 301 down through MD to get away from baltimore and a good chunk of DC-BAL traffic. It wasn't to shunpike. My company both then, and this new one, don't care about tolls, they expect us to use our perogative and knowledge to take the best route to get the load there safely and on time. 301/50 through MD can save time versus 95 though baltimore, but the downside is there are at most to my memory 2 truck stops along 301 once you get into MD, and one rest area. If you are coming out of NJ you have to keep an eye on your fuel gauge, because there are no major truck stop chains once you hit DE.
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Re: US 50/301(Chesapeake Bay Bridge)
« Reply #324 on: January 19, 2020, 03:34:17 PM »

^^^

Don't they lock the gates on the entrance to the US 301 rest area when it closes, and it closes up at a very early hour, like 5 or 6 p.m.?
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