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Author Topic: New York State Thruway  (Read 343825 times)

roadman

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1725 on: October 07, 2019, 03:18:50 PM »

Unless I'm missing something, I believe they can do everything they need with either ramp or mainline scanning or a combination of the two.  As long as they have enough of them that they can always tell from which ones you passed through where you got on and where you got off, the correct toll can be computed and charged.
For tolling, yes. But to get the best quality traffic volume and vehicle classification data, they should have gantries between every interchange. There's more that you can use detectors for than just tolling.

Agreed.  Note that the MassPike system was deliberately set up with only mainline gantries, instead of at on and of ramps, so they could easily create the free sections between certain interchanges in the Worcester and Springfield areas that others have mentioned.  Now you could have put the readers at the interchanges, and set up the billing system to recognize that movements between certain interchanges are billed as $0.00.  However, MassDOT opted for the system that was put in place.
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kalvado

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1726 on: October 07, 2019, 05:29:59 PM »

Unless I'm missing something, I believe they can do everything they need with either ramp or mainline scanning or a combination of the two.  As long as they have enough of them that they can always tell from which ones you passed through where you got on and where you got off, the correct toll can be computed and charged.
For tolling, yes. But to get the best quality traffic volume and vehicle classification data, they should have gantries between every interchange. There's more that you can use detectors for than just tolling.

Agreed.  Note that the MassPike system was deliberately set up with only mainline gantries, instead of at on and of ramps, so they could easily create the free sections between certain interchanges in the Worcester and Springfield areas that others have mentioned.  Now you could have put the readers at the interchanges, and set up the billing system to recognize that movements between certain interchanges are billed as $0.00.  However, MassDOT opted for the system that was put in place.
You can put a gantry before free section and treat it as "exit", splitting the system into multiple "mainlines" with gantries at smaller exits. Or, even better, treat transit from end to end of a free section within certain time as a paid long-haul trip. It all depends on fantasy of planner and target toll totals.


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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1727 on: October 07, 2019, 09:35:01 PM »

It's kind of cool what happens at Exit 35: the gantries for both adjacent interchanges (I-81 and I-481) are over the mainline. Thus, whichever way you go from Exit 35, you'll pass a gantry, so no gantry is needed at the exit itself. I believe that's the only exit where that happens.
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Great Lakes Roads

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1728 on: October 08, 2019, 12:12:57 AM »

It's kind of cool what happens at Exit 35: the gantries for both adjacent interchanges (I-81 and I-481) are over the mainline. Thus, whichever way you go from Exit 35, you'll pass a gantry, so no gantry is needed at the exit itself. I believe that's the only exit where that happens.

No, there will be more interchanges that will have that system. Here we go (from east to west):
Albany/Schenectady area:
- Exit 23
- Exit 24
- Exit 25
- Exit 25A

Syracuse:
-Exit 34A
-Exit 35
-Exit 36
-Exit 39

Rochester:
-Exit 44
-Exit 45
-Exit 46
-Exit 47

Otherwise, the local interchanges will pay electronically at the exit ramp.
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vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1729 on: October 08, 2019, 01:03:34 PM »

It's kind of cool what happens at Exit 35: the gantries for both adjacent interchanges (I-81 and I-481) are over the mainline. Thus, whichever way you go from Exit 35, you'll pass a gantry, so no gantry is needed at the exit itself. I believe that's the only exit where that happens.

No, there will be more interchanges that will have that system. Here we go (from east to west):
Albany/Schenectady area:
- Exit 23
- Exit 24
- Exit 25
- Exit 25A

Syracuse:
-Exit 34A
-Exit 35
-Exit 36
-Exit 39

Rochester:
-Exit 44
-Exit 45
-Exit 46
-Exit 47

Otherwise, the local interchanges will pay electronically at the exit ramp.
The other interchanges were specifically set out to have full toll booth removal for free-flowing traffic.  Exit 35 was not; it just happens to be between two that are, hence the gantries on either side.  It's the only interchange where that is the case.
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1730 on: October 08, 2019, 02:59:39 PM »

^ Yes, thank you. The point is that Exit 35 is pretty minor (certainly an outlier on that list) and would have had gantries on the ramps, except for the way it's situated between two freeway-freeway exits.


In other news, "installation underway" for the gantries at both Lackawanna and Williamsville. Interested to see if they are actually up next time I'm out that way. The locations are just east of Smoke Creek and just east of Youngs Road - far enough away from the existing toll barriers that it should be pretty easy to tell. Hopefully they leave enough room for six lanes under the Williamsville gantry!  :)

I wonder what they will do about charging for the mile between the new gantry and the existing barrier. Knowing this state, probably just charge for the whole I-290 to NY 78 stretch, even though only half of it will technically be tolled!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 01:05:12 PM by webny99 »
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vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1731 on: October 08, 2019, 09:03:25 PM »

Judging by the toll amounts, I'm pretty sure they were already charging for the full distance.  They definitely do for Woodbury/Harriman.

Looks like there's also work in the Syracuse and Albany areas.  Definitely looks like there's stuff to check out on the Thruway.

I've been wondering... do they still plan to move the Tappan Zee gantry back over to Tarrytown, or is it now staying in Nyack?
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Alps

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1732 on: October 09, 2019, 12:44:52 AM »

Judging by the toll amounts, I'm pretty sure they were already charging for the full distance.  They definitely do for Woodbury/Harriman.

Looks like there's also work in the Syracuse and Albany areas.  Definitely looks like there's stuff to check out on the Thruway.

I've been wondering... do they still plan to move the Tappan Zee gantry back over to Tarrytown, or is it now staying in Nyack?
It's permanent.

GenExpwy

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1733 on: October 09, 2019, 02:57:21 AM »

It's kind of cool what happens at Exit 35: the gantries for both adjacent interchanges (I-81 and I-481) are over the mainline. Thus, whichever way you go from Exit 35, you'll pass a gantry, so no gantry is needed at the exit itself. I believe that's the only exit where that happens.

No, there will be more interchanges that will have that system. Here we go (from east to west):
Albany/Schenectady area:
- Exit 23
- Exit 24
- Exit 25
- Exit 25A

Syracuse:
-Exit 34A
-Exit 35
-Exit 36
-Exit 39

Rochester:
-Exit 44
-Exit 45
-Exit 46
-Exit 47

Otherwise, the local interchanges will pay electronically at the exit ramp.
The other interchanges were specifically set out to have full toll booth removal for free-flowing traffic.  Exit 35 was not; it just happens to be between two that are, hence the gantries on either side.  It's the only interchange where that is the case.

Strange thing about the Syracuse setup:

There’s a mainline gantry between exits 36 and 37 (so that 36 can be free-flowing); and between 38 and 39 (so that 39 can be free-flowing). But then you would only need one mainline gantry between 37 and 38 to handle all of Syracuse — yet they are installing two exit gantries, at exits 37 and 38.
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kalvado

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1734 on: October 09, 2019, 11:21:36 AM »

Strange thing about the Syracuse setup:

There’s a mainline gantry between exits 36 and 37 (so that 36 can be free-flowing); and between 38 and 39 (so that 39 can be free-flowing). But then you would only need one mainline gantry between 37 and 38 to handle all of Syracuse — yet they are installing two exit gantries, at exits 37 and 38.
You can think about it in a slighlty different way:  those 2 exits have 5 and 6.5k traffic counts, compared to 37k on Thruway.
Currently 2 exits combined have 7 lanes, likely down to single lane per direction - total of  4 lanes with 4 reader sets with free flow. Thruway will also need 4 reader sets on a gantry for 4 lanes. Probably higher grade equipment for faster mainline as well... So it may be plain cheaper to do 2 locations instead of 1 after all
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vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1735 on: October 09, 2019, 01:36:15 PM »

Not to mention that, if the AET ramp setups are utilizing the existing toll barriers rather than removing them, they save on gantry costs as well.
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1736 on: October 09, 2019, 02:16:29 PM »

Still, for the sake of consistency, they might as well just add a mainline gantry, and that would also leave the door open for future changes to those interchanges. Or, even better, just don't do either one, thus making it free to travel between 37 and 38 - both local exits anyways.

My biggest thing is, I dislike the switching back and forth between mainline and interchange gantries.
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1737 on: October 15, 2019, 01:07:32 PM »

In other news, "installation underway" for the gantries at both Lackawanna and Williamsville. Interested to see if they are actually up next time I'm out that way.

UPDATE: There appears to a series of be mini-construction zones in the Syracuse area where the gantries are going to be placed.
No work zone speed limit or anything, just jersey barriers and slightly narrowed shoulders. I don't believe the actual gantries have been placed yet (at least not that I saw, although it was dark!)
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vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1738 on: October 15, 2019, 01:20:24 PM »

The one south of Albany that's "installation underway" isn't placed yet either.  Most of the work appeared to be prep in the median.

EDIT: The Syracuse work is even less exciting for the most part, though one looked like it was working on the concrete support for the gantry.  The location for the gantry to replace the Williamsville barrier is the same.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 09:05:24 PM by vdeane »
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1739 on: October 18, 2019, 09:35:42 PM »

Well, it's not exciting in the literal sense, but it is good to see progress nonetheless.
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seicer

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1740 on: October 22, 2019, 04:06:15 PM »

Troubled Thruway stretch ‘in far worse condition than we had anticipated’

"The Thruway stretch had become so dilapidated in recent years that the recommended speed limit is down to 45 mph.

The troubled thoroughfare was highlighted in August by the USA TODAY Network New York, and soon after negotiations between the state and the tribe picked up urgency.

Driscoll said the recent inspection of the road is the first time they have been able to fully inspect the roadway, finding "that the concrete base of the roadway is crumbling and badly cracking in many locations, making it ineffective for our crews to simply pave over it.""

cl94

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1741 on: October 22, 2019, 05:25:59 PM »

Troubled Thruway stretch ‘in far worse condition than we had anticipated’

"The Thruway stretch had become so dilapidated in recent years that the recommended speed limit is down to 45 mph.

The troubled thoroughfare was highlighted in August by the USA TODAY Network New York, and soon after negotiations between the state and the tribe picked up urgency.

Driscoll said the recent inspection of the road is the first time they have been able to fully inspect the roadway, finding "that the concrete base of the roadway is crumbling and badly cracking in many locations, making it ineffective for our crews to simply pave over it.""

Comments on The Buffalo News's Facebook page seem to think they can just repave it. But yeah, I knew just by looking at it that it would likely need a full reconstruction. The crack pattern is indicative of base failure. If you pave over that, it'll just fall apart after the next winter.
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Rothman

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1742 on: October 22, 2019, 08:47:00 PM »

Ah, to get on that gravy train of politicians and other appointees ending up at the Thruway.  Had to respect Driscoll's approach toward his role as NYSDOT Commissioner.
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hbelkins

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1743 on: October 23, 2019, 11:21:28 AM »

Troubled Thruway stretch ‘in far worse condition than we had anticipated’

"The Thruway stretch had become so dilapidated in recent years that the recommended speed limit is down to 45 mph.

The troubled thoroughfare was highlighted in August by the USA TODAY Network New York, and soon after negotiations between the state and the tribe picked up urgency.

Driscoll said the recent inspection of the road is the first time they have been able to fully inspect the roadway, finding "that the concrete base of the roadway is crumbling and badly cracking in many locations, making it ineffective for our crews to simply pave over it.""

Interesting. Lots of states pave over original concrete by "breaking and seating" or "rubbleizing" the pavement and then laying asphalt on the broken-up concrete.
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cl94

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1744 on: October 23, 2019, 12:58:04 PM »

Interesting. Lots of states pave over original concrete by "breaking and seating" or "rubbleizing" the pavement and then laying asphalt on the broken-up concrete.

NY does this as well in many recent projects (i.e. NY 85). Problem, of course, is that they have at most a couple weeks until there is a major snow threat, so there just isn't time until after the winter.
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Alps

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1745 on: October 23, 2019, 12:58:05 PM »

Troubled Thruway stretch ‘in far worse condition than we had anticipated’

"The Thruway stretch had become so dilapidated in recent years that the recommended speed limit is down to 45 mph.

The troubled thoroughfare was highlighted in August by the USA TODAY Network New York, and soon after negotiations between the state and the tribe picked up urgency.

Driscoll said the recent inspection of the road is the first time they have been able to fully inspect the roadway, finding "that the concrete base of the roadway is crumbling and badly cracking in many locations, making it ineffective for our crews to simply pave over it.""

Interesting. Lots of states pave over original concrete by "breaking and seating" or "rubbleizing" the pavement and then laying asphalt on the broken-up concrete.
Which in essence turns the concrete into a gravel base course. It has to be chopped up into uniformly small pieces to avoid map cracking on the surface.

RobbieL2415

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1746 on: October 24, 2019, 12:13:15 AM »

Troubled Thruway stretch ‘in far worse condition than we had anticipated’

"The Thruway stretch had become so dilapidated in recent years that the recommended speed limit is down to 45 mph.

The troubled thoroughfare was highlighted in August by the USA TODAY Network New York, and soon after negotiations between the state and the tribe picked up urgency.

Driscoll said the recent inspection of the road is the first time they have been able to fully inspect the roadway, finding "that the concrete base of the roadway is crumbling and badly cracking in many locations, making it ineffective for our crews to simply pave over it.""

Interesting. Lots of states pave over original concrete by "breaking and seating" or "rubbleizing" the pavement and then laying asphalt on the broken-up concrete.
Never seen that before.  They always mill down to the bituminous concrete and layer the new surface on top of that.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1747 on: October 24, 2019, 08:17:28 AM »

Troubled Thruway stretch ‘in far worse condition than we had anticipated’

"The Thruway stretch had become so dilapidated in recent years that the recommended speed limit is down to 45 mph.

The troubled thoroughfare was highlighted in August by the USA TODAY Network New York, and soon after negotiations between the state and the tribe picked up urgency.

Driscoll said the recent inspection of the road is the first time they have been able to fully inspect the roadway, finding "that the concrete base of the roadway is crumbling and badly cracking in many locations, making it ineffective for our crews to simply pave over it.""

Interesting. Lots of states pave over original concrete by "breaking and seating" or "rubbleizing" the pavement and then laying asphalt on the broken-up concrete.
Never seen that before.  They always mill down to the bituminous concrete and layer the new surface on top of that.
Huh.  Weird you haven't seen it.  "Crack and seat" is quite common up here in NY.
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Beltway

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1748 on: October 24, 2019, 08:27:02 AM »

Interesting. Lots of states pave over original concrete by "breaking and seating" or "rubbleizing" the pavement and then laying asphalt on the broken-up concrete.
Never seen that before.  They always mill down to the bituminous concrete and layer the new surface on top of that.
Huh.  Weird you haven't seen it.  "Crack and seat" is quite common up here in NY.

Becoming more common here in VA.  Used on a couple of the widening projects on I-64.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1749 on: October 24, 2019, 10:26:15 AM »

Troubled Thruway stretch ‘in far worse condition than we had anticipated’

"The Thruway stretch had become so dilapidated in recent years that the recommended speed limit is down to 45 mph.

The troubled thoroughfare was highlighted in August by the USA TODAY Network New York, and soon after negotiations between the state and the tribe picked up urgency.

Driscoll said the recent inspection of the road is the first time they have been able to fully inspect the roadway, finding "that the concrete base of the roadway is crumbling and badly cracking in many locations, making it ineffective for our crews to simply pave over it.""

Interesting. Lots of states pave over original concrete by "breaking and seating" or "rubbleizing" the pavement and then laying asphalt on the broken-up concrete.
Never seen that before.  They always mill down to the bituminous concrete and layer the new surface on top of that.
Huh.  Weird you haven't seen it.  "Crack and seat" is quite common up here in NY.
I believe I saw it once (on rt. 85) - and even then only because I specially paid attention after someone (possibly you?) explained the technology. 
It is pretty unspectacular if you don't know what is going on...
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