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Author Topic: New York State Thruway  (Read 355345 times)

vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1775 on: December 07, 2019, 10:38:22 PM »

NYSTA ordered non-reflective lettering for their sign shop by mistake many years ago.  Rather than order the correct stuff, they continued to use it for all their new signs until it ran out.  It's only this year that signage with the correct lettering has begun appearing again (with the exception of signs placed by contractors on larger projects).
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RestrictOnTheHanger

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1776 on: December 08, 2019, 08:21:08 AM »

NYSTA ordered non-reflective lettering for their sign shop by mistake many years ago.  Rather than order the correct stuff, they continued to use it for all their new signs until it ran out.  It's only this year that signage with the correct lettering has begun appearing again (with the exception of signs placed by contractors on larger projects).

That would explain it and your post above. Are there any plans to fix any of those signs? Its quite dangerous at night
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seicer

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1777 on: December 18, 2019, 02:08:27 PM »

Video: Does the new Gov. Mario M. Cuomo Bridge alleviate traffic?

"So while the new bridge is a smooth ride with four lanes over two spans and offers a majestic view of the Hudson River between Westchester and Rockland counties, it hasn't alleviated traffic in one of the busiest stretches in the metropolitan area."

Long story short: truck traffic counts are spiking because the new Cuomo Bridge offers a far cheaper drive over the Hudson (approximately $31 round-trip) than the George Washington Bridge (approximately $100 round-trip), and the roadways on both sides of the bridge can't handle the traffic.

Beltway

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1778 on: December 18, 2019, 03:13:14 PM »

Long story short: truck traffic counts are spiking because the new Cuomo Bridge offers a far cheaper drive over the Hudson (approximately $31 round-trip) than the George Washington Bridge (approximately $100 round-trip), and the roadways on both sides of the bridge can't handle the traffic.
That's good.

Means large truck traffic relief to the GWB and CBX.
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froggie

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1779 on: December 18, 2019, 03:14:34 PM »

^ To a limited degree and not much more, if the Tappan Zee approaches are now as congested as reported.
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PHLBOS

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1780 on: December 18, 2019, 05:58:13 PM »

^ To a limited degree and not much more, if the Tappan Zee approaches are now as congested as reported.
Based on what was shown on the video, the congestion traffic on the approaches appears to be heading away from the bridge rather than towards it.  If such is the case, it could be argued that the issue's more with the Thruway itself in those areas rather than the bridge.

The northbound bottleneck appears to be due to the lane drop (from 4-lanes to 3-lanes) just beyond Exit 11.  Although the video showed only one southbound shot near the I-87/287 split; one has to wonder if the congestion there is due to the Thruway (I-87 portion) is only striped for 2-lanes each-way inside the I-287 interchange (such wasn't always the case) based on the Google Street & Earth Views.
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RobbieL2415

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1781 on: December 18, 2019, 06:42:15 PM »

I agree with the lane drop theory.  I drove over the TZ back in July and experienced congestion before the merge.
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cl94

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1782 on: December 18, 2019, 07:41:30 PM »

At this point, the main bottleneck re: the bridge is the lane drop in Rockland. They could stripe that bridge thing for 12 lanes (which it has the space for) and you'd still have backups as long as you immediately lose a lane on the west end. Honestly, the only real fix at this point is to widen to 8 lanes at least to Suffern. But good luck getting that done with NYSTA's funding woes.
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vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1783 on: December 18, 2019, 08:24:17 PM »

Yeah, the Thruway really needs a widening between the lane drop and the Garden State Parkway connector.  Spring Valley is where the AADT drops.  I've encountered congestion several times on that section but haven't on the portion north/west of there (of course, living around Albany rather than NYC, I'm never traveling in the peak direction either).  I would not at all be surprised if that congestion has gotten worse due to a combination of the elimination of the bottleneck at the bridge and the rising disparity in tolls between it and the George Washington.
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SignBridge

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1784 on: December 18, 2019, 08:28:47 PM »

Cl94, how can NYSTA (or any major toll authority) have funding woes with all the toll revenue they collect? This is a semi-rhetorical question. I think I may know the answer so please just humor me here with the answers.
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cl94

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1785 on: December 18, 2019, 09:04:52 PM »

Cl94, how can NYSTA (or any major toll authority) have funding woes with all the toll revenue they collect? This is a semi-rhetorical question. I think I may know the answer so please just humor me here with the answers.

Politics. There has been a toll freeze in place for at least 10 years now. NYSTA was in good financial shape until the state government stopped them from raising tolls. It has gotten to the point where they can barely afford necessary maintenance.
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1786 on: December 18, 2019, 09:07:01 PM »

Yeah, the Thruway really needs a widening between the lane drop and the Garden State Parkway connector.

Second that. I've seen congestion there almost as many times as I've been on it - this includes 6 AM on a weekday and 9 PM on a Sunday night, among other times. The bottleneck eastbound at the Palisades Pkwy is worse than anything in Western NY period (IMO).
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SignBridge

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1787 on: December 18, 2019, 09:12:19 PM »

Cl94, thanks. I had not been aware that Thruway tolls have not increased in ten years. That's quite a surprise. Are there any other reasons for their financial problems?
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kalvado

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1788 on: December 18, 2019, 09:37:50 PM »

Cl94, thanks. I had not been aware that Thruway tolls have not increased in ten years. That's quite a surprise. Are there any other reasons for their financial problems?
Replacement of old Tappan Zee bridge is another issue.
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cl94

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1789 on: December 18, 2019, 09:45:06 PM »

Replacement of old Tappan Zee bridge is another issue.

Yes. In a normal world, Tappan Zee tolls would have gone up significantly to help pay for the new bridge. But thanks to the toll freeze...
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SignBridge

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1790 on: December 18, 2019, 09:56:41 PM »

Hmmm.......I thought the new bridge was paid for largely with Federal funding i.e. Stimulus Funds from the Obama years. Am I mistaken about that?
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Rothman

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1791 on: December 18, 2019, 10:49:45 PM »

Hmmm.......I thought the new bridge was paid for largely with Federal funding i.e. Stimulus Funds from the Obama years. Am I mistaken about that?
Yes.  It was a mixture of fund sources.
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kalvado

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1792 on: December 19, 2019, 08:19:12 AM »

Hmmm.......I thought the new bridge was paid for largely with Federal funding i.e. Stimulus Funds from the Obama years. Am I mistaken about that?
Yes.  It was a mixture of fund sources.
NYSTA 2019 budget book shows ~$1.3B spending on the bridge over 3 years, 2017-1019;  $770M borrowing over 3 years and $141,000 (yes, 141 THOUSAND) of federal funds over 3 years, none of those for the bridge.
https://www.thruway.ny.gov/about/financial/budgetbooks/books/2019-budget.pdf page 42
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PHLBOS

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1793 on: December 19, 2019, 09:19:32 AM »

Replacement of old Tappan Zee bridge is another issue.

Yes. In a normal world, Tappan Zee tolls would have gone up significantly to help pay for the new bridge. But thanks to the toll freeze...
Isn't the toll freeze for at least the Tappan Zee crossing set to expire sometime next year?
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Rothman

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1794 on: December 19, 2019, 09:36:58 AM »

I really have to wonder if the toll freeze is a detriment.  We are talking about a facility that has 160 million vehicles using it per year to some extent and that number has grown from about 140 million in 2008.  I know not all of them are paying the full distance toll by a long shot, but that's still a whole lot of revenue coming in every year for the number of lane-miles they have in their jurisdiction.

Of course, I'd rather just have NYSDOT be the sole transportation agency for roads and highways, get rid of tolls altogether and replace with federal and state VMT taxes, but here we are.
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kalvado

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1795 on: December 19, 2019, 09:56:51 AM »

I really have to wonder if the toll freeze is a detriment.  We are talking about a facility that has 160 million vehicles using it per year to some extent and that number has grown from about 140 million in 2008.  I know not all of them are paying the full distance toll by a long shot, but that's still a whole lot of revenue coming in every year for the number of lane-miles they have in their jurisdiction.

Of course, I'd rather just have NYSDOT be the sole transportation agency for roads and highways, get rid of tolls altogether and replace with federal and state VMT taxes, but here we are.
Most of these 160M vehicles pay $4.75 EZpass toll, that is $760M a year. Probably total is much lower, as $800M is  total Thruway annual revenue, but let's go with that number
COst of the bridge is $4B, so in theory, the bridge can be paid off in 5.5 years. That is, assuming no maintenance, no loan interest and no outlay for future maintenance.
I would assume, after all is said and done, 20 years is more feasible timeline. Not great, not terrible..
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Rothman

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1796 on: December 19, 2019, 10:07:52 AM »

I really have to wonder if the toll freeze is a detriment.  We are talking about a facility that has 160 million vehicles using it per year to some extent and that number has grown from about 140 million in 2008.  I know not all of them are paying the full distance toll by a long shot, but that's still a whole lot of revenue coming in every year for the number of lane-miles they have in their jurisdiction.

Of course, I'd rather just have NYSDOT be the sole transportation agency for roads and highways, get rid of tolls altogether and replace with federal and state VMT taxes, but here we are.
Most of these 160M vehicles pay $4.75 EZpass toll, that is $760M a year. Probably total is much lower, as $800M is  total Thruway annual revenue, but let's go with that number
COst of the bridge is $4B, so in theory, the bridge can be paid off in 5.5 years. That is, assuming no maintenance, no loan interest and no outlay for future maintenance.
I would assume, after all is said and done, 20 years is more feasible timeline. Not great, not terrible..
Keep in mind that NYSTA doesn't bear the full brunt of that cost, either.  I want to say that bank settlement money was also applied, for example.

In recent years, NYSDOT has operated on an annual budget that numbers in a few billion or so (essentially $2-3 billion + whatever PIT comes NYSDOT's way), and dwarfs NYSTA in terms of lane miles and bridge deck area, for example.

So, TZB is an understandable huge deal, but crying poverty doesn't sit well with me.
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PHLBOS

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1797 on: December 19, 2019, 10:41:10 AM »

IIRC, the toll on for the Tappan Zee (both old & new bridges) has always been lower than those of the southern NYC-Hudson River crossings; so I don't necessarily think that the truck partial-shunpiking to the Tappan Zee to avoid the more expensive NYC crossings is necessarily a new phenomenon.  The only thing that's changed is that the new 8-lane bridge allows the traffic to move more freely in that immediate area than the old bridge allowed.

Even if the toll freeze for the bridge expired/is lifted; the chances are the new higher toll will still be priced lower than the tolls for the other southern crossings. 

OTOH, if the increase is too severe; one might see more longer-distance through-truck traffic using the much cheaper I-84 Newburgh-Beacon Bridge further north... if they're not doing such already.
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kalvado

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1798 on: December 19, 2019, 10:42:38 AM »

I really have to wonder if the toll freeze is a detriment.  We are talking about a facility that has 160 million vehicles using it per year to some extent and that number has grown from about 140 million in 2008.  I know not all of them are paying the full distance toll by a long shot, but that's still a whole lot of revenue coming in every year for the number of lane-miles they have in their jurisdiction.

Of course, I'd rather just have NYSDOT be the sole transportation agency for roads and highways, get rid of tolls altogether and replace with federal and state VMT taxes, but here we are.
Most of these 160M vehicles pay $4.75 EZpass toll, that is $760M a year. Probably total is much lower, as $800M is  total Thruway annual revenue, but let's go with that number
COst of the bridge is $4B, so in theory, the bridge can be paid off in 5.5 years. That is, assuming no maintenance, no loan interest and no outlay for future maintenance.
I would assume, after all is said and done, 20 years is more feasible timeline. Not great, not terrible..
Keep in mind that NYSTA doesn't bear the full brunt of that cost, either.  I want to say that bank settlement money was also applied, for example.

In recent years, NYSDOT has operated on an annual budget that numbers in a few billion or so (essentially $2-3 billion + whatever PIT comes NYSDOT's way), and dwarfs NYSTA in terms of lane miles and bridge deck area, for example.

So, TZB is an understandable huge deal, but crying poverty doesn't sit well with me.

Crying poverty is not, overburdening with loans - probably yes. It was a while since I went through NYSTA spreadsheets, so my memory may be not exact, but yet...
Current NYSTA budget breaks even without Daddy's bridge construction - and there are a few people here who (very understandably) advocate more new construction, e.g. new lanes - as bridge loans have to be paid off using revenue from entire system.
Like you, I don't see extra 1-2 cents a mile (on top of about 2 cents NY paying in taxes right now) as a huge problem and would gladly pay those if that would help to balance the system - but we know our Beloved Leader II would find some better use for those money. Toll roads elsewhere are often raided for cash as well...   
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kalvado

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1799 on: December 19, 2019, 10:45:04 AM »

IIRC, the toll on for the Tappan Zee (both old & new bridges) has always been lower than those of the southern NYC-Hudson River crossings; so I don't necessarily think that the truck partial-shunpiking to the Tappan Zee to avoid the more expensive NYC crossings is necessarily a new phenomenon.  The only thing that's changed is that the new 8-lane bridge allows the traffic to move more freely in that immediate area than the old bridge allowed.

Even if the toll freeze for the bridge expired/is lifted; the chances are the new higher toll will still be priced lower than the tolls for the other southern crossings. 

OTOH, if the increase is too severe; one might see more longer-distance through-truck traffic using the much cheaper I-84 Newburgh-Beacon Bridge further north... if they're not doing such already.

If I understand things correctly, doubling of Tappan Zee toll would still keep it below NYC bridges
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