New York State Thruway

[Beltway]

Long story short: truck traffic counts are spiking because the new Cuomo Bridge offers a far cheaper drive over the Hudson (approximately $31 round-trip) than the George Washington Bridge (approximately $100 round-trip), and the roadways on both sides of the bridge can't handle the traffic.

That's good.

Means large truck traffic relief to the GWB and CBX.

[froggie]

^ To a limited degree and not much more, if the Tappan Zee approaches are now as congested as reported.

[PHLBOS]

^ To a limited degree and not much more, if the Tappan Zee approaches are now as congested as reported.

Based on what was shown on the video, the congestion traffic on the approaches appears to be heading away from the bridge rather than towards it.  If such is the case, it could be argued that the issue's more with the Thruway itself in those areas rather than the bridge.

The northbound bottleneck appears to be due to the lane drop (from 4-lanes to 3-lanes) just beyond Exit 11.  Although the video showed only one southbound shot near the I-87/287 split; one has to wonder if the congestion there is due to the Thruway (I-87 portion) is only striped for 2-lanes each-way inside the I-287 interchange (such wasn't always the case) based on the Google Street & Earth Views.

[RobbieL2415]

I agree with the lane drop theory.  I drove over the TZ back in July and experienced congestion before the merge.

[cl94]

At this point, the main bottleneck re: the bridge is the lane drop in Rockland. They could stripe that bridge thing for 12 lanes (which it has the space for) and you'd still have backups as long as you immediately lose a lane on the west end. Honestly, the only real fix at this point is to widen to 8 lanes at least to Suffern. But good luck getting that done with NYSTA's funding woes.

[vdeane]

Yeah, the Thruway really needs a widening between the lane drop and the Garden State Parkway connector.  Spring Valley is where the AADT drops.  I've encountered congestion several times on that section but haven't on the portion north/west of there (of course, living around Albany rather than NYC, I'm never traveling in the peak direction either).  I would not at all be surprised if that congestion has gotten worse due to a combination of the elimination of the bottleneck at the bridge and the rising disparity in tolls between it and the George Washington.

[SignBridge]

Cl94, how can NYSTA (or any major toll authority) have funding woes with all the toll revenue they collect? This is a semi-rhetorical question. I think I may know the answer so please just humor me here with the answers.

[cl94]

Cl94, how can NYSTA (or any major toll authority) have funding woes with all the toll revenue they collect? This is a semi-rhetorical question. I think I may know the answer so please just humor me here with the answers.

Politics. There has been a toll freeze in place for at least 10 years now. NYSTA was in good financial shape until the state government stopped them from raising tolls. It has gotten to the point where they can barely afford necessary maintenance.

[webny99]

Yeah, the Thruway really needs a widening between the lane drop and the Garden State Parkway connector.

Second that. I've seen congestion there almost as many times as I've been on it - this includes 6 AM on a weekday and 9 PM on a Sunday night, among other times. The bottleneck eastbound at the Palisades Pkwy is worse than anything in Western NY period (IMO).

[SignBridge]

Cl94, thanks. I had not been aware that Thruway tolls have not increased in ten years. That's quite a surprise. Are there any other reasons for their financial problems?

[kalvado]

Cl94, thanks. I had not been aware that Thruway tolls have not increased in ten years. That's quite a surprise. Are there any other reasons for their financial problems?

Replacement of old Tappan Zee bridge is another issue.

[cl94]

Replacement of old Tappan Zee bridge is another issue.

Yes. In a normal world, Tappan Zee tolls would have gone up significantly to help pay for the new bridge. But thanks to the toll freeze...

[SignBridge]

Hmmm.......I thought the new bridge was paid for largely with Federal funding i.e. Stimulus Funds from the Obama years. Am I mistaken about that?

[Rothman]

Hmmm.......I thought the new bridge was paid for largely with Federal funding i.e. Stimulus Funds from the Obama years. Am I mistaken about that?

Yes.  It was a mixture of fund sources.

[kalvado]

Hmmm.......I thought the new bridge was paid for largely with Federal funding i.e. Stimulus Funds from the Obama years. Am I mistaken about that?

Yes.  It was a mixture of fund sources.

NYSTA 2019 budget book shows ~$1.3B spending on the bridge over 3 years, 2017-1019;  $770M borrowing over 3 years and $141,000 (yes, 141 THOUSAND) of federal funds over 3 years, none of those for the bridge.
https://www.thruway.ny.gov/about/financial/budgetbooks/books/2019-budget.pdf page 42

[PHLBOS]

Replacement of old Tappan Zee bridge is another issue.

Yes. In a normal world, Tappan Zee tolls would have gone up significantly to help pay for the new bridge. But thanks to the toll freeze...

Isn't the toll freeze for at least the Tappan Zee crossing set to expire sometime next year?

[Rothman]

I really have to wonder if the toll freeze is a detriment.  We are talking about a facility that has 160 million vehicles using it per year to some extent and that number has grown from about 140 million in 2008.  I know not all of them are paying the full distance toll by a long shot, but that's still a whole lot of revenue coming in every year for the number of lane-miles they have in their jurisdiction.

Of course, I'd rather just have NYSDOT be the sole transportation agency for roads and highways, get rid of tolls altogether and replace with federal and state VMT taxes, but here we are.

[kalvado]

I really have to wonder if the toll freeze is a detriment.  We are talking about a facility that has 160 million vehicles using it per year to some extent and that number has grown from about 140 million in 2008.  I know not all of them are paying the full distance toll by a long shot, but that's still a whole lot of revenue coming in every year for the number of lane-miles they have in their jurisdiction.

Of course, I'd rather just have NYSDOT be the sole transportation agency for roads and highways, get rid of tolls altogether and replace with federal and state VMT taxes, but here we are.

Most of these 160M vehicles pay $4.75 EZpass toll, that is $760M a year. Probably total is much lower, as $800M is  total Thruway annual revenue, but let's go with that number
COst of the bridge is $4B, so in theory, the bridge can be paid off in 5.5 years. That is, assuming no maintenance, no loan interest and no outlay for future maintenance.
I would assume, after all is said and done, 20 years is more feasible timeline. Not great, not terrible..

[Rothman]

I really have to wonder if the toll freeze is a detriment.  We are talking about a facility that has 160 million vehicles using it per year to some extent and that number has grown from about 140 million in 2008.  I know not all of them are paying the full distance toll by a long shot, but that's still a whole lot of revenue coming in every year for the number of lane-miles they have in their jurisdiction.

Of course, I'd rather just have NYSDOT be the sole transportation agency for roads and highways, get rid of tolls altogether and replace with federal and state VMT taxes, but here we are.

Most of these 160M vehicles pay $4.75 EZpass toll, that is $760M a year. Probably total is much lower, as $800M is  total Thruway annual revenue, but let's go with that number
COst of the bridge is $4B, so in theory, the bridge can be paid off in 5.5 years. That is, assuming no maintenance, no loan interest and no outlay for future maintenance.
I would assume, after all is said and done, 20 years is more feasible timeline. Not great, not terrible..

Keep in mind that NYSTA doesn't bear the full brunt of that cost, either.  I want to say that bank settlement money was also applied, for example.

In recent years, NYSDOT has operated on an annual budget that numbers in a few billion or so (essentially $2-3 billion + whatever PIT comes NYSDOT's way), and dwarfs NYSTA in terms of lane miles and bridge deck area, for example.

So, TZB is an understandable huge deal, but crying poverty doesn't sit well with me.

[PHLBOS]

IIRC, the toll on for the Tappan Zee (both old & new bridges) has always been lower than those of the southern NYC-Hudson River crossings; so I don't necessarily think that the truck partial-shunpiking to the Tappan Zee to avoid the more expensive NYC crossings is necessarily a new phenomenon.  The only thing that's changed is that the new 8-lane bridge allows the traffic to move more freely in that immediate area than the old bridge allowed.

Even if the toll freeze for the bridge expired/is lifted; the chances are the new higher toll will still be priced lower than the tolls for the other southern crossings. 

OTOH, if the increase is too severe; one might see more longer-distance through-truck traffic using the much cheaper I-84 Newburgh-Beacon Bridge further north... if they're not doing such already.

[kalvado]

I really have to wonder if the toll freeze is a detriment.  We are talking about a facility that has 160 million vehicles using it per year to some extent and that number has grown from about 140 million in 2008.  I know not all of them are paying the full distance toll by a long shot, but that's still a whole lot of revenue coming in every year for the number of lane-miles they have in their jurisdiction.

Of course, I'd rather just have NYSDOT be the sole transportation agency for roads and highways, get rid of tolls altogether and replace with federal and state VMT taxes, but here we are.

Most of these 160M vehicles pay $4.75 EZpass toll, that is $760M a year. Probably total is much lower, as $800M is  total Thruway annual revenue, but let's go with that number
COst of the bridge is $4B, so in theory, the bridge can be paid off in 5.5 years. That is, assuming no maintenance, no loan interest and no outlay for future maintenance.
I would assume, after all is said and done, 20 years is more feasible timeline. Not great, not terrible..

Keep in mind that NYSTA doesn't bear the full brunt of that cost, either.  I want to say that bank settlement money was also applied, for example.

In recent years, NYSDOT has operated on an annual budget that numbers in a few billion or so (essentially $2-3 billion + whatever PIT comes NYSDOT's way), and dwarfs NYSTA in terms of lane miles and bridge deck area, for example.

So, TZB is an understandable huge deal, but crying poverty doesn't sit well with me.

Crying poverty is not, overburdening with loans - probably yes. It was a while since I went through NYSTA spreadsheets, so my memory may be not exact, but yet...
Current NYSTA budget breaks even without Daddy's bridge construction - and there are a few people here who (very understandably) advocate more new construction, e.g. new lanes - as bridge loans have to be paid off using revenue from entire system.
Like you, I don't see extra 1-2 cents a mile (on top of about 2 cents NY paying in taxes right now) as a huge problem and would gladly pay those if that would help to balance the system - but we know our Beloved Leader II would find some better use for those money. Toll roads elsewhere are often raided for cash as well...   

[kalvado]

IIRC, the toll on for the Tappan Zee (both old & new bridges) has always been lower than those of the southern NYC-Hudson River crossings; so I don't necessarily think that the truck partial-shunpiking to the Tappan Zee to avoid the more expensive NYC crossings is necessarily a new phenomenon.  The only thing that's changed is that the new 8-lane bridge allows the traffic to move more freely in that immediate area than the old bridge allowed.

Even if the toll freeze for the bridge expired/is lifted; the chances are the new higher toll will still be priced lower than the tolls for the other southern crossings. 

OTOH, if the increase is too severe; one might see more longer-distance through-truck traffic using the much cheaper I-84 Newburgh-Beacon Bridge further north... if they're not doing such already.

If I understand things correctly, doubling of Tappan Zee toll would still keep it below NYC bridges

[Beltway]

In recent years, NYSDOT has operated on an annual budget that numbers in a few billion or so (essentially $2-3 billion + whatever PIT comes NYSDOT's way), and dwarfs NYSTA in terms of lane miles and bridge deck area, for example.

NYSDOT only has a budget of $3 billion per year?

In a state with that much population (almost 20 million)?

[PHLBOS]

On the subject of bridge toll increases.
The new Mario M. Cuomo Bridge toll has been proposed. Here's what it would be.

The toll on the Gov. Mario M. Cuomo Bridge could be set to increase to $5.75 for E-ZPass users by 2022, though residents of Westchester and Rockland County will get a discount maintaining the current $4.75 toll through then.

Those who pay by mail would pay more: An additional 30% plus a $2 surcharge on monthly bills beginning in 2021, which will apply across the entire Thruway system.

The state Thruway Authority's board of directors formally proposed the increase Thursday morning at its meeting in Albany, potentially ending the years-long mystery of how much the toll would rise on the $4 billion bridge crossing the Hudson River.

Once fully approved, the Thruway would begin implementing the increase in 2021, after a toll-hike moratorium expires at the end of 2020.

Among the changes, according to the authority:

-The toll for E-ZPass users, currently $4.75 on the Westchester-bound span, would increase to $5.25 in 2021 and $5.75 in 2022.

-Those who pay tolls by mail would pay 30% more, meaning they will pay about $6.83 in 2021 and $7.38 in 2022.

-They will also pay a $2 surcharge on monthly bills.

-A 40% discount for commuters would remain in place.

-A new resident discount for Westchester and Rockland residents would maintain the current E-ZPass toll of $4.75 through 2022.

-The toll for commercial traffic would also increase, with the most common trucks set to pay about $55 in 2022.

The Thruway Authority board approved the changes Thursday morning. From there, the Thruway will have to hold hearings and accept public comment before putting the increase in place.

"Now is the time to begin consideration of a (toll) adjustment process," said Thruway CFO Matt Howard. "It will allow us to conform with the Thruway Authority's pledge to keep tolls frozen through 2020."
...
Credit-rating agencies had warned that the uncertainty of the toll, which had remained at Tappan Zee levels even after the new bridge opened, could cause problems for the Thruway's bond rating.

In a report last month, Moody's Investor Services suggested that a toll increase will likely be needed by 2022. The report came as the Thruway sold $2.7 billion in bonds, in part to take advantage of low interest rates and pay off a federal loan for the bridge early.

[Rothman]

In recent years, NYSDOT has operated on an annual budget that numbers in a few billion or so (essentially $2-3 billion + whatever PIT comes NYSDOT's way), and dwarfs NYSTA in terms of lane miles and bridge deck area, for example.

NYSDOT only has a budget of $3 billion per year?

In a state with that much population (almost 20 million)?

Shocking, isn't it.  We're also a donor state and a lot of people up her grumble we'd be in a better situation if we got our fed dollars back instead of them ending up in other states where the people want smaller government anyway.