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Author Topic: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware  (Read 75717 times)

Roadsguy

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #250 on: December 12, 2018, 09:30:50 AM »

I don't see any other toll gantries on either the Google imagery or the plans from the website besides the mainline gantry north of the state line and the three sets of north-facing ramp gantries. If the toll to get from Maryland to DE 1 is $4, then it must be one single charge at the mainline gantry.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #251 on: December 12, 2018, 09:33:58 AM »

I honestly think it's messed up to charge $4 simply to cross the state line, especially if you're not going using the facility for more than 2 miles.
I agree but I-95 just north of the Elkton, MD/Newark, DE border has been charging that rate for years.

I see on the toll calculator that the DE-1 turnpike is a reasonable $2 on weekdays, but is an unreasonable $6 on weekends. 

Unless you can take advantage of the Frequent User Plan which is $1.00 and $2.00 respectively.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #252 on: December 12, 2018, 09:36:12 AM »

So is Delaware now the state with the highest percentage of its freeway mileage being tolled?
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #253 on: December 12, 2018, 09:45:17 AM »

I don't see any other toll gantries on either the Google imagery or the plans from the website besides the mainline gantry north of the state line and the three sets of north-facing ramp gantries. If the toll to get from Maryland to DE 1 is $4, then it must be one single charge at the mainline gantry.

MD-299 connects to US-301 two miles south of the border, so you could take that and avoid the new tollroad, use DE-299, connect to the DE-1 turnpike at Odessa, and northward from there to I-95.  But that segment of DE-1 costs at Weekday Rate $1.50 and Weekend Rate $3.50.

Looks like the new US-301 tollroad bypasses the tolled portion of DE-1, but based on the respective tolls and the slowness and urban nature of parts of Route 299, that there may be no incentive for thru traffic to avoid the US-301 tollroad.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #254 on: December 12, 2018, 10:29:11 AM »

Looks like the new US-301 tollroad bypasses the tolled portion of DE-1, but based on the respective tolls and the slowness and urban nature of parts of Route 299, that there may be no incentive for thru traffic to avoid the US-301 tollroad.
I believe that such is intentional.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #255 on: December 12, 2018, 10:57:24 AM »

Quote from: Beltway
I see on the toll calculator that the DE-1 turnpike is a reasonable $2 on weekdays, but is an unreasonable $6 on weekends.

Weekends are by far the busiest times on DE 1, especially summer weekends.  One could argue whether or not $6 is high but a level above $2 is certainly not unreasonable given the higher demand.

It's also in part how they're paying for all the interchange projects on DE 1 south of Dover.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #256 on: December 12, 2018, 01:33:27 PM »

IMO the "soak everyone crossing the state line" toll scheme the DE uses should be illegal (things like major bridges/tunnels excepted).  I like how the Thruway does it - allow everyone to enter the state and exit without charge if they decide they don't want to pay.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 08:56:57 PM by vdeane »
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #257 on: December 12, 2018, 03:18:03 PM »

IMO the "soak everyone crossing the state line" toll scheme the DE uses should be illegal (things like major bridges excepted).  I like how the Thruway does it - allow everyone to enter the state and exit without charge if they decide they don't want to pay.

So if someone drives it from PA to NYC, and don't want to pay the toll, that they will let them get away with that?
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U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #258 on: December 12, 2018, 03:19:21 PM »

IMO the "soak everyone crossing the state line" toll scheme the DE uses should be illegal (things like major bridges excepted).  I like how the Thruway does it - allow everyone to enter the state and exit without charge if they decide they don't want to pay.

So if someone drives it from PA to NYC, and don't want to pay the toll, that they will let them get away with that?
Wheres that route at? You have to still pay the GWB no matter what way you take.
(The only freeway is coming from the top of NY.


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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #259 on: December 12, 2018, 03:22:25 PM »

IMO the "soak everyone crossing the state line" toll scheme the DE uses should be illegal (things like major bridges excepted).  I like how the Thruway does it - allow everyone to enter the state and exit without charge if they decide they don't want to pay.
So if someone drives it from PA to NYC, and don't want to pay the toll, that they will let them get away with that?
Wheres that route at? You have to still pay the GWB no matter what way you take.
(The only freeway is coming from the top of NY.

Wherever the NY Thruway becomes the Major Deegan Expressway.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #260 on: December 12, 2018, 03:56:28 PM »

IMO the "soak everyone crossing the state line" toll scheme the DE uses should be illegal (things like major bridges excepted).  I like how the Thruway does it - allow everyone to enter the state and exit without charge if they decide they don't want to pay.
So if someone drives it from PA to NYC, and don't want to pay the toll, that they will let them get away with that?
Wheres that route at? You have to still pay the GWB no matter what way you take.
(The only freeway is coming from the top of NY.

Wherever the NY Thruway becomes the Major Deegan Expressway.
Depending on where one gets on the Thruway, one still pays a toll at the Tappan Zee/Hudson River crossing.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #261 on: December 12, 2018, 04:06:11 PM »

I honestly think it's messed up to charge $4 simply to cross the state line, especially if you're not going using the facility for more than 2 miles.
I agree but I-95 just north of the Elkton, MD/Newark, DE border has been charging that rate for years.
The difference with that though is that a local can exit before either toll and head into either city using modern 4-lane roads. In this instance, if you lived in Middletown and wanted to go into Maryland for some reason, to avoid the steep entrance toll, you'd have to exit before the toll, and drive down narrow 2 lane roads. In dry weather during the day, it's okay (but still messed up). During rain and at night, the risk of an accident is much higher, especially if a lot of traffic choses to use it.

I understand the goal is to toll thru traffic, but there should always be a safe shunpiking route or one locals can use. In this instance, there's no good alternative besides these narrow country roads. The toll on I-95 can be avoided by locals by safe, modern 4-lane roads. Even if it was 2 lanes, but full width, that would work too.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #262 on: December 12, 2018, 04:07:21 PM »

You're missing the point. You can bail at the first exit (and sometimes later) without paying a toll (to the Thruway) at any of the four state line crossings on the Thruway system.

But Delaware could just as easily put the I-95 toll between 896 and 273, and it would actually be harder to bypass than the current location.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #263 on: December 12, 2018, 04:13:54 PM »

I honestly think it's messed up to charge $4 simply to cross the state line, especially if you're not going using the facility for more than 2 miles.
I agree but I-95 just north of the Elkton, MD/Newark, DE border has been charging that rate for years.

I see on the toll calculator that the DE-1 turnpike is a reasonable $2 on weekdays, but is an unreasonable $6 on weekends. 

Unless you can take advantage of the Frequent User Plan which is $1.00 and $2.00 respectively.
Agreed that $6 is unreasonable, and $2 is reasonable. It reminds of Route 168 in Chesapeake, Virginia, the toll was originally $2 all time. It was increased to $3 off-peak, and now $8 during weekends, one-way. In 2020, that toll will go up a dollar for both, $4 off-peak, $9 peak. Outrageous tolls here, just to travel 6 miles, and you only get to do 55 MPH. The shunpiking route is a slightly lower 45 MPH, and carries double the traffic as the toll road. It's funny, that road cost $120 million to build in 2001, and has collected $150 million already. Tolls are set to continue until 2051... which begs the question, why?
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #264 on: December 12, 2018, 04:20:31 PM »

I honestly think it's messed up to charge $4 simply to cross the state line, especially if you're not going using the facility for more than 2 miles.
I agree but I-95 just north of the Elkton, MD/Newark, DE border has been charging that rate for years.

I see on the toll calculator that the DE-1 turnpike is a reasonable $2 on weekdays, but is an unreasonable $6 on weekends. 

Unless you can take advantage of the Frequent User Plan which is $1.00 and $2.00 respectively.
Agreed that $6 is unreasonable, and $2 is reasonable. It reminds of Route 168 in Chesapeake, Virginia, the toll was originally $2 all time. It was increased to $3 off-peak, and now $8 during weekends, one-way. In 2020, that toll will go up a dollar for both, $4 off-peak, $9 peak. Outrageous tolls here, just to travel 6 miles, and you only get to do 55 MPH. The shunpiking route is a slightly lower 45 MPH, and carries double the traffic as the toll road. It's funny, that road cost $120 million to build in 2001, and has collected $150 million already. Tolls are set to continue until 2051... which begs the question, why?

Summer weekends I can understand, but charging the same rate on weekends from October to April is crazy.
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sprjus4

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #265 on: December 12, 2018, 04:25:59 PM »

I don't see any other toll gantries on either the Google imagery or the plans from the website besides the mainline gantry north of the state line and the three sets of north-facing ramp gantries. If the toll to get from Maryland to DE 1 is $4, then it must be one single charge at the mainline gantry.

MD-299 connects to US-301 two miles south of the border, so you could take that and avoid the new tollroad, use DE-299, connect to the DE-1 turnpike at Odessa, and northward from there to I-95.  But that segment of DE-1 costs at Weekday Rate $1.50 and Weekend Rate $3.50.

Looks like the new US-301 tollroad bypasses the tolled portion of DE-1, but based on the respective tolls and the slowness and urban nature of parts of Route 299, that there may be no incentive for thru traffic to avoid the US-301 tollroad.
There's no incentive for thru-traffic to avoid the toll, but for a local, avoiding the toll is key, because it is pointless to pay $4 one-way when you're just going to enter the town anyways.

Another question is, there's a few distribution centers in Middletown, along with many businesses. Will truckers be willing to pay the $9 truck toll just to drop off cargo right over the state line? It'd be interesting to see how it plays out - big semis could be barreling down these narrow 2-lane roads, and to save $9, many would risk it.
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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #266 on: December 12, 2018, 04:41:48 PM »

I see on the toll calculator that the DE-1 turnpike is a reasonable $2 on weekdays, but is an unreasonable $6 on weekends.   Unless you can take advantage of the Frequent User Plan which is $1.00 and $2.00 respectively.
Agreed that $6 is unreasonable, and $2 is reasonable. It reminds of Route 168 in Chesapeake, Virginia, the toll was originally $2 all time. It was increased to $3 off-peak, and now $8 during weekends, one-way. In 2020, that toll will go up a dollar for both, $4 off-peak, $9 peak. Outrageous tolls here, just to travel 6 miles, and you only get to do 55 MPH. The shunpiking route is a slightly lower 45 MPH, and carries double the traffic as the toll road. It's funny, that road cost $120 million to build in 2001, and has collected $150 million already. Tolls are set to continue until 2051... which begs the question, why?

I seriously, seriously question the notion that it has collected $150 million.

Regular users get a major break, the Chesapeake Expressway Discount Member Rate for 2-axle vehicles is $0.75 on every day of the week.
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Tonytone

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U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #267 on: December 12, 2018, 04:46:06 PM »

I don't see any other toll gantries on either the Google imagery or the plans from the website besides the mainline gantry north of the state line and the three sets of north-facing ramp gantries. If the toll to get from Maryland to DE 1 is $4, then it must be one single charge at the mainline gantry.

MD-299 connects to US-301 two miles south of the border, so you could take that and avoid the new tollroad, use DE-299, connect to the DE-1 turnpike at Odessa, and northward from there to I-95.  But that segment of DE-1 costs at Weekday Rate $1.50 and Weekend Rate $3.50.

Looks like the new US-301 tollroad bypasses the tolled portion of DE-1, but based on the respective tolls and the slowness and urban nature of parts of Route 299, that there may be no incentive for thru traffic to avoid the US-301 tollroad.
There's no incentive for thru-traffic to avoid the toll, but for a local, avoiding the toll is key, because it is pointless to pay $4 one-way when you're just going to enter the town anyways.

Another question is, there's a few distribution centers in Middletown, along with many businesses. Will truckers be willing to pay the $9 truck toll just to drop off cargo right over the state line? It'd be interesting to see how it plays out - big semis could be barreling down these narrow 2-lane roads, and to save $9, many would risk it.
They already barrel down the 2 lane roads, Ive seen close accidents with many of the trucks in this area, From truck tires blown out & trucks not realizing it & trucks driving very close to cars & / or speeding.


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Beltway

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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #268 on: December 12, 2018, 04:55:00 PM »

I agree but I-95 just north of the Elkton, MD/Newark, DE border has been charging that rate for years.
The difference with that though is that a local can exit before either toll and head into either city using modern 4-lane roads. In this instance, if you lived in Middletown and wanted to go into Maryland for some reason, to avoid the steep entrance toll, you'd have to exit before the toll, and drive down narrow 2 lane roads. In dry weather during the day, it's okay (but still messed up). During rain and at night, the risk of an accident is much higher, especially if a lot of traffic choses to use it.

The difference being that even before I-95 was built, US-40 was a 4-lane divided highway in the same corridor. 

There is no need for the bulk of MD and DE 299 to have more than 2 lanes.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #269 on: December 12, 2018, 05:16:00 PM »

Perhaps the E-ZPass toll rate can adjusted for local residents.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #270 on: December 12, 2018, 05:18:22 PM »

I see on the toll calculator that the DE-1 turnpike is a reasonable $2 on weekdays, but is an unreasonable $6 on weekends.   Unless you can take advantage of the Frequent User Plan which is $1.00 and $2.00 respectively.
Agreed that $6 is unreasonable, and $2 is reasonable. It reminds of Route 168 in Chesapeake, Virginia, the toll was originally $2 all time. It was increased to $3 off-peak, and now $8 during weekends, one-way. In 2020, that toll will go up a dollar for both, $4 off-peak, $9 peak. Outrageous tolls here, just to travel 6 miles, and you only get to do 55 MPH. The shunpiking route is a slightly lower 45 MPH, and carries double the traffic as the toll road. It's funny, that road cost $120 million to build in 2001, and has collected $150 million already. Tolls are set to continue until 2051... which begs the question, why?

I seriously, seriously question the notion that it has collected $150 million.

Regular users get a major break, the Chesapeake Expressway Discount Member Rate for 2-axle vehicles is $0.75 on every day of the week.
I created this using documents from Chesapeake Expressway's annual collection reports. It documents toll collection amounts from each year. As of May 2018, it adds up to $148,596,028. The original project cost $116,000,000, as per your article on the Expressway (http://www.roadstothefuture.com/VA168_Chesa_Expwy.html)



The toll was supposed to paid off by 2032, or sooner if significant revenue was generated (as you can see with the numbers, them hiking the peak toll accelerated the revenue generation). It's 13 years before 2032, and revenue has exceeded expectations, and the road is fully paid off. The tolls need to come off in 2019, not this now 2051 year.

As for the discounted toll, I agree with it, and if I could use the toll road, I would pay the discounted toll. The problem is, I commute on Battlefield Blvd daily (the parallel road) and it is heavy on traffic. Daily 2 mile backups because of one traffic light. You hop on the expressway  (I've done it before), and it is practically empty, only a few group of cars here and there, even at rush hour.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 05:24:19 PM by sprjus4 »
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #271 on: December 12, 2018, 06:30:49 PM »

Regarding the U. S. 301 toll, what is the toll for traveling rhe comparitable distance on DE 1?
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #272 on: December 12, 2018, 06:41:17 PM »

I agree but I-95 just north of the Elkton, MD/Newark, DE border has been charging that rate for years.
The difference with that though is that a local can exit before either toll and head into either city using modern 4-lane roads. In this instance, if you lived in Middletown and wanted to go into Maryland for some reason, to avoid the steep entrance toll, you'd have to exit before the toll, and drive down narrow 2 lane roads. In dry weather during the day, it's okay (but still messed up). During rain and at night, the risk of an accident is much higher, especially if a lot of traffic choses to use it.

The difference being that even before I-95 was built, US-40 was a 4-lane divided highway in the same corridor. 

There is no need for the bulk of MD and DE 299 to have more than 2 lanes.
Agreed, but the roads should be widened out to full 2 lane width - 12 foot lanes and 4 foot paved shoulders - especially if locals are going to divert this way.
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #273 on: December 12, 2018, 07:32:53 PM »


I created this using documents from Chesapeake Expressway's annual collection reports. It documents toll collection amounts from each year. As of May 2018, it adds up to $148,596,028. The original project cost $116,000,000, as per your article on the Expressway (http://www.roadstothefuture.com/VA168_Chesa_Expwy.html)



The toll was supposed to paid off by 2032, or sooner if significant revenue was generated (as you can see with the numbers, them hiking the peak toll accelerated the revenue generation). It's 13 years before 2032, and revenue has exceeded expectations, and the road is fully paid off. The tolls need to come off in 2019, not this now 2051 year.

 


I don't think this data takes into account ANY expenses.  See slide 12 at http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/chesapeake_expressway/Oct+2013+Traffic+$!26+Revenue+Report.pdf

Also the amount to repay is not $125M but also whatever debt service came with it...
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Re: U.S. 301 toll road project in Delaware
« Reply #274 on: December 12, 2018, 08:02:02 PM »


I created this using documents from Chesapeake Expressway's annual collection reports. It documents toll collection amounts from each year. As of May 2018, it adds up to $148,596,028. The original project cost $116,000,000, as per your article on the Expressway (http://www.roadstothefuture.com/VA168_Chesa_Expwy.html)



The toll was supposed to paid off by 2032, or sooner if significant revenue was generated (as you can see with the numbers, them hiking the peak toll accelerated the revenue generation). It's 13 years before 2032, and revenue has exceeded expectations, and the road is fully paid off. The tolls need to come off in 2019, not this now 2051 year.

 


I don't think this data takes into account ANY expenses.  See slide 12 at http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Assets/documents/departments/public_works/chesapeake_expressway/Oct+2013+Traffic+$!26+Revenue+Report.pdf

Also the amount to repay is not $125M but also whatever debt service came with it...
So far, they've exceeded $30 million in additional revenue that beats the project costs. By 2023, they would've exceeded $200 million in collection, over $80 million total over project costs. That amount of money is more than enough to fully complete repayments, and if it isn't, the rest can be paid off by local or state funding.

One incentive to pay the road off with public funding for the rest, is that the shunpiking route, Battlefield Blvd, is a bottleneck. The costs to repay the rest with public funding would not be significantly high, whatever that number may be, compared to the cost of building the expressway to begin with. If the expressway had its tolls removed, all thru traffic would stay on the highway, instead of backing up 2 miles daily because of one traffic signal. 21,000 VPD currently use Battlefield Blvd while a little under 10,000 VPD use the expressway.

We've had our time with the toll road, it's essentially paid off now, and we need to remove the tolls, fix all of the traffic issues, instead of leaving them for another 32 years.
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