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Author Topic: Virginia plans to toll I-81  (Read 6542 times)

Thing 342

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #175 on: January 21, 2019, 11:30:03 PM »

But is it even POSSIBLE to reasonably implement a mileage tax?  Either everything goes to your home jurisdiction no matter what, or some centralized tracking method is needed.
Virginia requires annual safety inspections, so I don't see why they couldn't simply log the odometer each year and calculate the tax from that...

But what if I was In Idaho with my car for 11 months during that year? VA gets the money even though I drove in another state the entire time.
For the same reason you'd still be paying income and property tax back to the Commonwealth of Virginia even though you've been mostly using other state's services? I can't see this being a common use case.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #176 on: January 21, 2019, 11:54:02 PM »

But is it even POSSIBLE to reasonably implement a mileage tax?  Either everything goes to your home jurisdiction no matter what, or some centralized tracking method is needed.
Virginia requires annual safety inspections, so I don't see why they couldn't simply log the odometer each year and calculate the tax from that...

But what if I was In Idaho with my car for 11 months during that year? VA gets the money even though I drove in another state the entire time.
For the same reason you'd still be paying income and property tax back to the Commonwealth of Virginia even though you've been mostly using other state's services? I can't see this being a common use case.

If you own property in VA, the tax is for that property. There's still services that assist you even if you're not in the house. The police will still come; trash will still be picked up, etc (ie: you rent the house).

Income tax, depending on the state, isn't the same thing either. You may wind up paying income tax to Idaho but crediting it against your VA tax return.

Idaho wouldn't be happy they won't receive gas tax revenue because it's going to VA.
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sparker

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #177 on: January 22, 2019, 02:53:45 AM »

^^^^^^^^^
Without resorting to vehicle tracking or other "micromanagement" of driving habits, one of the potential solutions for out-of-state driving would be to simply take a yearly odometer reading and subtract a "standard deduction" of something like 10 or 12.5% which would be placed in a co-operative pool.  50% of that pool would be divided up among the states adjoining the fee collector (or, in the case of the Northeast, any state within 150 miles of the state line), with the remainder distributed equally to the more far-field states.  It likely wouldn't cover outliers like the VA/ID situation posed upthread, but it would apply to a large percentage of the driving public.  This would obviate the expense -- and the privacy concerns -- endemic to vehicle tracking.
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Beltway

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #178 on: January 22, 2019, 07:08:43 AM »

Without resorting to vehicle tracking or other "micromanagement" of driving habits, one of the potential solutions for out-of-state driving would be to simply take a yearly odometer reading

Still a fairly crude measure of mileage to only have one reading per year.  Then the question arises as how to track partial year such as selling one car and buying another.  Also the fact that the 12-month  inspection cycle doesn't go from January to December, it starts the month the car is licensed.
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kalvado

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #179 on: January 22, 2019, 07:28:14 AM »

^^^^^^^^^
Without resorting to vehicle tracking or other "micromanagement" of driving habits, one of the potential solutions for out-of-state driving would be to simply take a yearly odometer reading and subtract a "standard deduction" of something like 10 or 12.5% which would be placed in a co-operative pool.  50% of that pool would be divided up among the states adjoining the fee collector (or, in the case of the Northeast, any state within 150 miles of the state line), with the remainder distributed equally to the more far-field states.  It likely wouldn't cover outliers like the VA/ID situation posed upthread, but it would apply to a large percentage of the driving public.  This would obviate the expense -- and the privacy concerns -- endemic to vehicle tracking.
And there will be a lot of workarounds. WHo sets "toll" rates? If it is a state - a state could benefit from lowering toll to get more vehicles in. ANother option is to charge a higher registration fee (not shared) instead of shared toll, or some other workarounds would pop up.
Without resorting to vehicle tracking or other "micromanagement" of driving habits, one of the potential solutions for out-of-state driving would be to simply take a yearly odometer reading

Still a fairly crude measure of mileage to only have one reading per year.  Then the question arises as how to track partial year such as selling one car and buying another.  Also the fact that the 12-month  inspection cycle doesn't go from January to December, it starts the month the car is licensed.

Not that big of a deal if rates are adjusted annually and there is one collection a year. Property taxes work somewhat similar.
Use mileage at a time of sale to compute the toll due at registration (what about out of state transactions, though?).
Odometer tampering may be a bigger issue.
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Beltway

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #180 on: January 22, 2019, 07:38:56 AM »

Still a fairly crude measure of mileage to only have one reading per year.  Then the question arises as how to track partial year such as selling one car and buying another.  Also the fact that the 12-month  inspection cycle doesn't go from January to December, it starts the month the car is licensed.
Not that big of a deal if rates are adjusted annually and there is one collection a year. Property taxes work somewhat similar.
Use mileage at a time of sale to compute the toll due at registration (what about out of state transactions, though?).
Odometer tampering may be a bigger issue.

Isn't odometer tampering practically impossible with today's systems?  Property taxes don't involve reading a metered device.  So rather than having one place to read it (inspection station), there would need to be a reading for both vehicles at the time of transfer.
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kalvado

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #181 on: January 22, 2019, 08:00:49 AM »

Still a fairly crude measure of mileage to only have one reading per year.  Then the question arises as how to track partial year such as selling one car and buying another.  Also the fact that the 12-month  inspection cycle doesn't go from January to December, it starts the month the car is licensed.
Not that big of a deal if rates are adjusted annually and there is one collection a year. Property taxes work somewhat similar.
Use mileage at a time of sale to compute the toll due at registration (what about out of state transactions, though?).
Odometer tampering may be a bigger issue.

Isn't odometer tampering practically impossible with today's systems?  Property taxes don't involve reading a metered device.  So rather than having one place to read it (inspection station), there would need to be a reading for both vehicles at the time of transfer.
If it can be made by human being, it can be modified by another human being. It's a matter of price and benefit. Mostly additional benefit of sale with mileage below actual.
As for official readings - in NY mileage at the time of sale is reported to DMV as part of the transaction, with two signatures - seller and buyer. Any discrepancy will be taken care of during next inspection anyway; and in NY that inspection is due within 10 days after private party sale, or at the time of sale by a dealer.
Vehicle disposal may be a bit more interesting, though.
If OBDII had the ability to read mileage and possibly detect tampering, things would be even more  interesting.
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VTGoose

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #182 on: January 22, 2019, 08:59:10 AM »

Each and every inch travelled should be tolled. We can apply toll either to total mileage travelled - or it may be easier just to toll via gas purchases. Just add that many cents to price of gas and call it toll.
Oh wait....
Boom, let's put a toll on gas purchases. They don't like tax increases, so let's call it a toll and they'll love it.

The Virginia GOP is good at that. In many localities when you pay "court costs" for a traffic ticket or other offense, there are hidden "fees" in that total bill, used to provide security in the courthouse, help maintain the courthouse, and support programs that have nothing to do with a traffic ticket. These "fees" are actually taxes on citizens but charged in a way that allowed legislators to avoid using that "tax" word. See https://www.roanoke.com/news/dan_casey/saturday-column-reprise-with-traffic-tickets-they-get-you-one/article_e655724a-f649-5269-9b60-89683ee6cf73.html

The General Assembly did the same thing a few years ago when it raised the gas tax. Instead of increasing the tax directly at the pump, the tax was put on the wholesale price of gas, which was passed directly to consumers who weren't fooled.

It will be interesting to see if the General Assembly caves to pressure from the trucking lobby and reduces or removes tolls and sticks the cost of improvements to I-81 localities with special fuel taxes, lodging and entertainment taxes, or other fees.
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kalvado

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #183 on: January 22, 2019, 10:22:21 AM »

Each and every inch travelled should be tolled. We can apply toll either to total mileage travelled - or it may be easier just to toll via gas purchases. Just add that many cents to price of gas and call it toll.
Oh wait....
Boom, let's put a toll on gas purchases. They don't like tax increases, so let's call it a toll and they'll love it.

The Virginia GOP is good at that. In many localities when you pay "court costs" for a traffic ticket or other offense, there are hidden "fees" in that total bill, used to provide security in the courthouse, help maintain the courthouse, and support programs that have nothing to do with a traffic ticket. These "fees" are actually taxes on citizens but charged in a way that allowed legislators to avoid using that "tax" word. See https://www.roanoke.com/news/dan_casey/saturday-column-reprise-with-traffic-tickets-they-get-you-one/article_e655724a-f649-5269-9b60-89683ee6cf73.html

The General Assembly did the same thing a few years ago when it raised the gas tax. Instead of increasing the tax directly at the pump, the tax was put on the wholesale price of gas, which was passed directly to consumers who weren't fooled.

It will be interesting to see if the General Assembly caves to pressure from the trucking lobby and reduces or removes tolls and sticks the cost of improvements to I-81 localities with special fuel taxes, lodging and entertainment taxes, or other fees.
Nothing beats NY driver assessment program
Even officially there is nothing else but a fee to be paid: https://dmv.ny.gov/tickets/pay-driver-responsibility-assessment
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Thing 342

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #184 on: January 22, 2019, 10:32:45 AM »

^^^^^^^^^
Without resorting to vehicle tracking or other "micromanagement" of driving habits, one of the potential solutions for out-of-state driving would be to simply take a yearly odometer reading and subtract a "standard deduction" of something like 10 or 12.5% which would be placed in a co-operative pool.  50% of that pool would be divided up among the states adjoining the fee collector (or, in the case of the Northeast, any state within 150 miles of the state line), with the remainder distributed equally to the more far-field states.  It likely wouldn't cover outliers like the VA/ID situation posed upthread, but it would apply to a large percentage of the driving public.  This would obviate the expense -- and the privacy concerns -- endemic to vehicle tracking.
And there will be a lot of workarounds. WHo sets "toll" rates? If it is a state - a state could benefit from lowering toll to get more vehicles in. ANother option is to charge a higher registration fee (not shared) instead of shared toll, or some other workarounds would pop up.
Without resorting to vehicle tracking or other "micromanagement" of driving habits, one of the potential solutions for out-of-state driving would be to simply take a yearly odometer reading

Still a fairly crude measure of mileage to only have one reading per year.  Then the question arises as how to track partial year such as selling one car and buying another.  Also the fact that the 12-month  inspection cycle doesn't go from January to December, it starts the month the car is licensed.

Not that big of a deal if rates are adjusted annually and there is one collection a year. Property taxes work somewhat similar.
Use mileage at a time of sale to compute the toll due at registration (what about out of state transactions, though?).
Odometer tampering may be a bigger issue.
Virginia already has laws against odometer tampering: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter1/section46.2-112/
Would be fairly easy to ratchet up the penalties involved in order to deter potential mischief.
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kalvado

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #185 on: January 22, 2019, 10:40:32 AM »

Virginia already has laws against odometer tampering: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter1/section46.2-112/
Would be fairly easy to ratchet up the penalties involved in order to deter potential mischief.
I think there are such laws everywhere; actually it is a felony in federal  law.
However,
Quote


NHTSA estimates that more than 450,000 vehicles are sold each year with false odometer readings. This crime costs American car buyers more than $1 billion annually.
Actually I think I bought a clunker with adjusted odometer some years ago. Ultimately it turned out not so bad at the end of the day, but for completely different reasons.
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Beltway

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #186 on: January 22, 2019, 11:10:49 AM »

Isn't odometer tampering practically impossible with today's systems?  Property taxes don't involve reading a metered device.  So rather than having one place to read it (inspection station), there would need to be a reading for both vehicles at the time of transfer.
If it can be made by human being, it can be modified by another human being. It's a matter of price and benefit. Mostly additional benefit of sale with mileage below actual.

To answer my own question, it is indeed possible to tamper with and change today's electronic odometers.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a21946562/odometer-tampering-a-crime-of-the-past-leaps-into-the-future/

"Odometer tampering is still possible, and not just on older cars.  Today, the act is the confluence of high-tech fraud and good old-fashioned records falsification.  NHTSA estimates that more than 450,000 vehicles are sold each year with falsified odometer readings, costing car buyers in the U.S. over $1 billion. "
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Scott M. Savage
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MikieTimT

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #187 on: January 22, 2019, 11:23:08 AM »

Isn't odometer tampering practically impossible with today's systems?  Property taxes don't involve reading a metered device.  So rather than having one place to read it (inspection station), there would need to be a reading for both vehicles at the time of transfer.
If it can be made by human being, it can be modified by another human being. It's a matter of price and benefit. Mostly additional benefit of sale with mileage below actual.

To answer my own question, it is indeed possible to tamper with and change today's electronic odometers.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a21946562/odometer-tampering-a-crime-of-the-past-leaps-into-the-future/

"Odometer tampering is still possible, and not just on older cars.  Today, the act is the confluence of high-tech fraud and good old-fashioned records falsification.  NHTSA estimates that more than 450,000 vehicles are sold each year with falsified odometer readings, costing car buyers in the U.S. over $1 billion. "

Then again, the age-old larger diameter tire trick that also serves to skew mileage (and indicated speed) downward will become popular with a larger financial incentive to those for whom ethics are more fluid than the rest of us.  Not really a good way to prevent that "tampering" as there are no changes to the vehicle other than tires.
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hbelkins

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #188 on: January 22, 2019, 11:29:44 AM »

But is it even POSSIBLE to reasonably implement a mileage tax?  Either everything goes to your home jurisdiction no matter what, or some centralized tracking method is needed.
Virginia requires annual safety inspections, so I don't see why they couldn't simply log the odometer each year and calculate the tax from that...

But what if I was In Idaho with my car for 11 months during that year? VA gets the money even though I drove in another state the entire time.

If you were in Idaho for 11 months out of the year, Idaho would probably consider you to be a resident and insist you register your car and get your driver's license from that state, and transfer them from Virginia.
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kalvado

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #189 on: January 22, 2019, 12:22:52 PM »


Then again, the age-old larger diameter tire trick that also serves to skew mileage (and indicated speed) downward will become popular with a larger financial incentive to those for whom ethics are more fluid than the rest of us.  Not really a good way to prevent that "tampering" as there are no changes to the vehicle other than tires.
and ba
You can gain what, 10% in wheel diameter for 10% lower tax?
Righ now, federal tax is below 1 cent a mile, combined fuel taxes in NY - which is at the top of high tax states list - is 2-2.5 cents a mile, and average toll is about 6 cents per mile.
So for average US annual 13kmiles, we are talking existing $300 fuel tax in NY, $780 at toll rate.
10% of that is the savings,  $30 and $78 a year, and those need to offset reduced fuel economy, higher cost of bigger tires, and cost of work. Probably would break even after alll..   
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Mapmikey

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #190 on: January 22, 2019, 12:53:44 PM »

But is it even POSSIBLE to reasonably implement a mileage tax?  Either everything goes to your home jurisdiction no matter what, or some centralized tracking method is needed.
Virginia requires annual safety inspections, so I don't see why they couldn't simply log the odometer each year and calculate the tax from that...

But what if I was In Idaho with my car for 11 months during that year? VA gets the money even though I drove in another state the entire time.

If you were in Idaho for 11 months out of the year, Idaho would probably consider you to be a resident and insist you register your car and get your driver's license from that state, and transfer them from Virginia.

A better example would be someone in or retired from the military who can have their car registered in a state not where they currently live for an indefinite period.
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froggie

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #191 on: January 22, 2019, 01:20:24 PM »

^ That's allowed for active duty military who are on "official orders" stationed in a given area if they're retaining residency in another state.  It is not allowed for retired military.

This is how I was able to avoid Virginia's car tax and the equivalent (personal property tax on vehicles) in Mississippi, because I retained my Minnesota residency while I was active duty.  That said, I did register my vehicle in whatever state I was stationed in.
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kalvado

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #192 on: January 22, 2019, 01:56:53 PM »

^ That's allowed for active duty military who are on "official orders" stationed in a given area if they're retaining residency in another state.  It is not allowed for retired military.

This is how I was able to avoid Virginia's car tax and the equivalent (personal property tax on vehicles) in Mississippi, because I retained my Minnesota residency while I was active duty.  That said, I did register my vehicle in whatever state I was stationed in.
I believe you can keep other state's plates if you maintain residence in that state.
We had someone in NY who was officially on assignment from OR - for 3 years or so. OR payroll taxes, driver license, and and OR registration for a new car purchased in NY.
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vdeane

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #193 on: January 22, 2019, 02:39:39 PM »

Given the number of people who maintain out of state car registrations in NY, I wonder how enforceable it it.
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hbelkins

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #194 on: January 22, 2019, 02:54:52 PM »

Given the number of people who maintain out of state car registrations in NY, I wonder how enforceable it it.

Very, if the state decides to do a crackdown. Kentucky has done a number of "Freddie Freeroader" enforcement campaigns. They allow a grace period for people to register vehicles improperly registered in another state, then go after violators. Anonymous reports are (or were) encouraged. If you're mad at your neighbor/ex/boss/whomever, and they are driving a car registered in another state primarily in Kentucky, it's a good way to get back at them.

That being said, state licensing requirements vary. I know at least one couple that owns a condo in Sevier County, Tenn., and they have at least one of their vehicles registered there. I don't know how Tennessee charges for vehicle registration, but Kentucky charges both the flat fee and annual property tax, both of which must be paid to renew a plate. I'm also not sure what the residency requirements are for either state, but I'm pretty sure the couple I know are violating Kentucky law, because they maintain their primary residence here (they actually had to move because a highway project eminent domain'ed their house, so they built a new one a couple of counties away) and only go to Tennessee on occasion, and it's not their primary residence. Their driver's licenses and voter registrations are in Kentucky.
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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #195 on: January 22, 2019, 10:13:38 PM »

^^^^

I once reported a car that belonged to a guy who used to live across the street from us. He had left a vulgar note on my wife’s car when he didn’t like how it was parked. I figured out who did it and I reported his unregistered car that had expired New Jersey plates. The county not only added it to the tax rolls, they also dinged him for the $100 “No Plate Tax” that applies to cars that are required to have Virginia plates but don’t.
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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #196 on: January 23, 2019, 12:35:34 AM »

^^^^

I once reported a car that belonged to a guy who used to live across the street from us. He had left a vulgar note on my wife’s car when he didn’t like how it was parked. I figured out who did it and I reported his unregistered car that had expired New Jersey plates. The county not only added it to the tax rolls, they also dinged him for the $100 “No Plate Tax” that applies to cars that are required to have Virginia plates but don’t.

Guess the lesson here is that if you're trying to skirt laws that'll cost you $$, don't be an overt asshole!
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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #197 on: January 23, 2019, 09:01:17 AM »

Without resorting to vehicle tracking or other "micromanagement" of driving habits, one of the potential solutions for out-of-state driving would be to simply take a yearly odometer reading

Still a fairly crude measure of mileage to only have one reading per year.  Then the question arises as how to track partial year such as selling one car and buying another.  Also the fact that the 12-month  inspection cycle doesn't go from January to December, it starts the month the car is licensed.

Don't know if this is a widespread standard practice in other localities, but Montgomery County a few years ago implemented a new policy for personal property tax (the "car tax"). It used to be that you received a tax bill in December, based on assessed value, for vehicles owned as of January 1 of that year. Someone figured out that if someone traded or purchased a newer, higher value car after January 1, they got to skate for a year on paying a higher tax. Now, using DMV info, the county will send a bill for pro-rated taxes when there is a change in vehicles.

Since mileage is recorded as part of a title transfer, it wouldn't be that difficult to deal with partial-year mileage -- not that such a plan to collect tax that way makes any sense. There is just too much Big Brother to it, since it wouldn't be much of a stretch to go from tracking mileage to tracking where people actually go. We already see the fiction of crime shows using GPS data and live tracking to find criminals. Joe Everyman might not want someone to be able to see and wonder why he was at the No-Tell Motel or cruising through the 'hood far from his suburban neighborhood.
 
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #198 on: January 23, 2019, 09:12:58 AM »

^^^^

I once reported a car that belonged to a guy who used to live across the street from us. He had left a vulgar note on my wife’s car when he didn’t like how it was parked. I figured out who did it and I reported his unregistered car that had expired New Jersey plates. The county not only added it to the tax rolls, they also dinged him for the $100 “No Plate Tax” that applies to cars that are required to have Virginia plates but don’t.

I guess this had to be a number of years ago, since NJ got rid of the short-lived plate sticker in 2006 I believe!
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vdeane

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Re: Virginia plans to toll I-81
« Reply #199 on: January 23, 2019, 01:03:20 PM »

Without resorting to vehicle tracking or other "micromanagement" of driving habits, one of the potential solutions for out-of-state driving would be to simply take a yearly odometer reading

Still a fairly crude measure of mileage to only have one reading per year.  Then the question arises as how to track partial year such as selling one car and buying another.  Also the fact that the 12-month  inspection cycle doesn't go from January to December, it starts the month the car is licensed.

Don't know if this is a widespread standard practice in other localities, but Montgomery County a few years ago implemented a new policy for personal property tax (the "car tax"). It used to be that you received a tax bill in December, based on assessed value, for vehicles owned as of January 1 of that year. Someone figured out that if someone traded or purchased a newer, higher value car after January 1, they got to skate for a year on paying a higher tax. Now, using DMV info, the county will send a bill for pro-rated taxes when there is a change in vehicles.

Since mileage is recorded as part of a title transfer, it wouldn't be that difficult to deal with partial-year mileage -- not that such a plan to collect tax that way makes any sense. There is just too much Big Brother to it, since it wouldn't be much of a stretch to go from tracking mileage to tracking where people actually go. We already see the fiction of crime shows using GPS data and live tracking to find criminals. Joe Everyman might not want someone to be able to see and wonder why he was at the No-Tell Motel or cruising through the 'hood far from his suburban neighborhood.
 
Not to mention, who wants to pay another large, lump sum tax bill?  I rent, so I currently don't have any (NY doesn't have a property tax on cars, and I've gotten an income tax refund every single year since college).  Having to pay a large tax based on how much one drives (rather than a largely invisible gas tax) would seem to be to be a disincentive to driving, which I suspect is the reason why many people support it.
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