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Author Topic: Delaware  (Read 303274 times)

PurdueBill

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #450 on: October 04, 2014, 09:01:44 PM »

The 273 looks like an older shield between the digits in D and the oval having flat bottom and top.  The 141 appears to be the newer kind of oval with curvature nearly all around.  Indeed a number with two 1s ought to be series D--heck, it might fit in a circle!  :P
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Alex4897

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #451 on: October 04, 2014, 09:55:23 PM »

Anything fits in a circle if you manipulate it enough!

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PurdueBill

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #452 on: October 06, 2014, 12:30:22 AM »

Anything fits in a circle if you manipulate it enough!



Exactly the type I was thinking of.  I lived near a number of those once--not too far from those very signs actually.

The large number of narrow 273 shields vs. the paucity of narrow 896 ones was always intriguing.  I figured it came from 273 being frequently with 2, as in the pic, so as to have the shields the same width, and carried over to some others as well.  But 896 shields with other narrow ones never became narrow.  Mysteries of DelDOT....

I miss the ancient overhead on Main St. with the little circular 273 and 896 shields.  I once lived where I could see that one out a window.
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Alps

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #453 on: October 07, 2014, 07:56:01 PM »

But 896 shields with other narrow ones never became narrow.  Mysteries of DelDOT....
Never?
 
Granted, excellent chance neither of these was erected by DelDOT.

Alex4897

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #454 on: October 08, 2014, 08:49:23 PM »

So DelDOT released their "Annual Report and Transportation Facts" for 2013 and the cover of it had a neat overhead shot of the recently completed I-95 / DE 1 interchange.

Here's a link to the actual PDF: http://www.deldot.gov/information/pubs_forms/fact_book/pdf/2013/2013_deldot_fact_book.pdf

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cpzilliacus

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #455 on: October 09, 2014, 09:34:35 PM »

USA Today: Delaware eyes truckers evading tolls on I-95

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By year's end, truckers again could see cops on the lookout for Delaware Turnpike toll evaders along streets in this area, officials said.

Quote
The state Department of Transportation stopped paying for heightened enforcement from Delaware State Police and Newark police in 2007, according to police agencies. New agreements are under discussion.

Quote
"It was like as soon as we were gone, the truckers knew," Newark City Manager Carol Houck said. "Our guys just can't be out there all the time."

Quote
The Transportation Department is looking to reinstate money for special-duty patrols along routes restricted to local deliveries only, such as Delaware 4 and Old Baltimore Pike, also known as Delaware 281. The goal is to slow declining commercial toll revenues on Interstate 95.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #456 on: October 10, 2014, 09:53:22 AM »

USA Today: Delaware eyes truckers evading tolls on I-95

Quote
By year's end, truckers again could see cops on the lookout for Delaware Turnpike toll evaders along streets in this area, officials said.

Quote
The state Department of Transportation stopped paying for heightened enforcement from Delaware State Police and Newark police in 2007, according to police agencies. New agreements are under discussion.

Quote
"It was like as soon as we were gone, the truckers knew," Newark City Manager Carol Houck said. "Our guys just can't be out there all the time."

Quote
The Transportation Department is looking to reinstate money for special-duty patrols along routes restricted to local deliveries only, such as Delaware 4 and Old Baltimore Pike, also known as Delaware 281. The goal is to slow declining commercial toll revenues on Interstate 95.

That's what happens when you're too stupid to put in proper ramp plazas on your tollway.  Put in ramp plazas that decrease in toll the further you get from the mainline toll plaza, and a lot of the problem will solve itself.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #457 on: October 10, 2014, 09:58:52 AM »

Delaware did charge at one time to exit at all the ramps leading up to the tolls.   They were stupid to remove them not to think about installing them.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #458 on: October 10, 2014, 10:22:29 AM »

USA Today: Delaware eyes truckers evading tolls on I-95

Quote
By year's end, truckers again could see cops on the lookout for Delaware Turnpike toll evaders along streets in this area, officials said.

Quote
The state Department of Transportation stopped paying for heightened enforcement from Delaware State Police and Newark police in 2007, according to police agencies. New agreements are under discussion.

Quote
"It was like as soon as we were gone, the truckers knew," Newark City Manager Carol Houck said. "Our guys just can't be out there all the time."

Quote
The Transportation Department is looking to reinstate money for special-duty patrols along routes restricted to local deliveries only, such as Delaware 4 and Old Baltimore Pike, also known as Delaware 281. The goal is to slow declining commercial toll revenues on Interstate 95.
Another article excerpt worth noting posted below (bold emphasis added):

Quote
The weight restrictions on Delaware 4 aren't because of structural limitations on the bridge but to keep large trucks off the roads, said Mark Luszcz, chief traffic engineer for the state Transportation Department.

"The reason there's a truck restriction on Route 4 is because the viable route is I-95," Luszcz said.
In short, the restrictions weren't safety-driven but rather revenue-driven (surprise-surprise).

That's what happens when you're too stupid to put in proper ramp plazas on your tollway.  Put in ramp plazas that decrease in toll the further you get from the mainline toll plaza, and a lot of the problem will solve itself.
Like other toll facilities, that plaza & its related-tolls were likely originally supposed to be torn down & gone after the original bonds that built the highway were paid off.  The tolls only existed to expedite the construction of the road.  The interchange ramp tolls were eliminated in 1976.

The real issue here is that when toll agencies gouge (round-trip tolls range from $8 for cars to $18 for 5-axle trucks; there's also NO EZ-Pass discount since October 2007), all motorists (including truckers) will seek alternate routes where possible/practical.  Since the toll is not for a river crossing; the surrounding local roads are 100% fair game for usage.

Delaware did charge at one time to exit at all the ramps leading up to the tolls.   They were stupid to remove them not to think about installing them.
Again, the road was likely destined to be free of all tolls (hence the I-95 shields) when the original bonds were paid off.  Plus, the tolls (in terms of dollar amount) were a lot lower back then (10-cent, 25-cent tolls).  The shun-piking en masse started in October 2007 when the current tolls rates took effect and the EZ-Pass discounts were eliminated.

Who didn't see this coming?
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #459 on: October 10, 2014, 10:46:52 AM »

I'd argue shun-piking went *down* since they added the Express lanes, as one can get from Exit 1 in Delaware to Exit 109 in Maryland in about 2 minutes, versus the 10 or so minute detour shunpiking would require.  Some people that are sitting in a traffic jam approaching Exit 1 would figure out they would spend the same amount of time detouring to avoid a toll compared to sitting in traffic to pay a toll.  Without the traffic jams, the incentive to bypass the toll can be weighed against the time it'll take to bypass that toll.

For those that take the road every day, it's probably worthwhile to detour.  $8 a day round trip is $180 or so a month for a normal worker.  Even more dramatic with truckers, which can be a $400 monthly expenditure. 
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roadman65

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #460 on: October 10, 2014, 10:51:37 AM »

I was only answering Brandon's post.  Agreed, raising the tolls on the Delaware Turnpike opened the door to all this extra traffic on the local roads.  It is a shame that the politicians do not see it when they vote on increases to the tolls, and instead they are indeed surprised by people's action to avoid the tolls.

The tolls should be removed as originally planned, but some agencies have become businesses and keep annexing road projects more so to keep their jobs than the actual need for the project.

At least EZ pass has helped as before you had to wait in traffic just to pay the high toll rate.  Back in 09 when I drove there in March, I remember seeing SB traffic backed up almost to DE 273.  I would have not blamed anyone for avoiding that as the toll was 4 bucks at that time.  Waiting in a long line just to pay it is even worse than the toll itself.  Delaware should be lowering the tolls instead of cracking down on the shunpikers.

It is a mess and will continue to get worse and not better!
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #461 on: October 10, 2014, 10:56:47 AM »

I'd argue shun-piking went *down* since they added the Express lanes, as one can get from Exit 1 in Delaware to Exit 109 in Maryland in about 2 minutes, versus the 10 or so minute detour shunpiking would require.
From the article:   
Quote
Transactions fell 8% for the largest commercial category — 5-axle tractor-trailers — during the fiscal year ending June 30 and are down by 25% when compared to 2006 traffic. Overall commercial toll revenue was down by more than $2 million — 7.5% — from 2013, according to state data.

The comparison didn't go into that particular detail (re: EZ-Pass Express Lanes) but nonetheless; shunpiking has indeed increased since the tolls went up and the EZ-Pass discounted were eliminated (for I-95 only, not DE 1).

« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 10:58:57 AM by PHLBOS »
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cpzilliacus

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #462 on: October 10, 2014, 11:30:38 PM »

Delaware did charge at one time to exit at all the ramps leading up to the tolls.   They were stupid to remove them not to think about installing them.

I remember those ramp tolls on the JFK Highway in Delaware and in Maryland.  The only entirely "free" interchange with no tolls on the ramps was at Md. 279 (present-day Exit 109). 

In Delaware, all of the tolls on the ramps were for traffic entering northbound and exiting southbound. The Delaware Turnpike tolls were at present-day Exits 1, 3, and 4.  I don't think there were any ramp tolls at Exit 5.   They have been gone for a long time (the Delaware ramp tolls were removed in the 1970's, I think), but I recall the ramp tolls being very low, 5˘, 10˘, 15˘, 20˘ or maybe 25˘ at the most.   The Maryland ramp tolls were taken away in the early 1980's.

I think the Delaware ramp tolls were staffed, but none of the ramp tolls in Maryland had staffing - strictly coin-drop exact change.
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cpzilliacus

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #463 on: October 10, 2014, 11:39:19 PM »

For those that take the road every day, it's probably worthwhile to detour.  $8 a day round trip is $180 or so a month for a normal worker.  Even more dramatic with truckers, which can be a $400 monthly expenditure.

A little more out of the way, but legal in both states for trucks, is to shunpike via U.S. 40. Delaware 1 works well on the Delaware side, and Md. 272 is good road in Maryland. Yes, there are some signalized intersections on U.S. 40, but for a tractor-trailer, the extra time might be worth it. 
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #464 on: October 10, 2014, 11:50:01 PM »

I'd argue shun-piking went *down* since they added the Express lanes, as one can get from Exit 1 in Delaware to Exit 109 in Maryland in about 2 minutes, versus the 10 or so minute detour shunpiking would require.
From the article:   
Quote
Transactions fell 8% for the largest commercial category — 5-axle tractor-trailers — during the fiscal year ending June 30 and are down by 25% when compared to 2006 traffic. Overall commercial toll revenue was down by more than $2 million — 7.5% — from 2013, according to state data.

The comparison didn't go into that particular detail (re: EZ-Pass Express Lanes) but nonetheless; shunpiking has indeed increased since the tolls went up and the EZ-Pass discounted were eliminated (for I-95 only, not DE 1).



But is truck traffic down in general? How does it compare to MD or NJ? And how do traffic volumes compare on the alternative routes?
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #465 on: October 13, 2014, 08:39:20 AM »

In Delaware, all of the tolls on the ramps were for traffic entering northbound and exiting southbound. The Delaware Turnpike tolls were at present-day Exits 1, 3, and 4.  I don't think there were any ramp tolls at Exit 5.   They have been gone for a long time (the Delaware ramp tolls were removed in the 1970's, I think), but I recall the ramp tolls being very low, 5˘, 10˘, 15˘, 20˘ or maybe 25˘ at the most.
As posted earlier, the ramp tolls in Delaware were removed in 1976.

But is truck traffic down in general? How does it compare to MD or NJ? And how do traffic volumes compare on the alternative routes?
The article (originally from a Delaware source, The Wilmington News Journal) is only focusing on the I-95 toll situation in Delaware and only Delaware.  The comparisons are based on when DelDOT raised the tolls (& dropped the EZ-Pass discounts) at the Newark Plaza in 2007. 

Not only did Additionally, MD & NJ not raise their tolls in 2007 (they only raised them within the last 3 years) but they didn't double them within a 3-year period as well like DelDOT did.  Since the reasoning for the increased shumpiking among trucks in DE is directly related to the exorbitant I-95 tolls in DE; comparing increased shunpiking rates & patterns for MD and/or NJ in this particular case is comparing apples & oranges.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 10:33:24 AM by PHLBOS »
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #466 on: October 13, 2014, 09:12:07 PM »

Not only did MD & NJ not raise their tolls in 2007 (they only raised them within the last 3 years) but they didn't double them within a 3-year period as well like DelDOT did.

Depends on what road you mean when you are talking about MD.  If you mean the JFK toll plaza, it didn't quite double.  However, the Baltimore bridge/tunnel tolls did double in about a 3-year period (from $2 to $4 each way).
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #467 on: October 14, 2014, 10:25:03 AM »

Depends on what road you mean when you are talking about MD.  If you mean the JFK toll plaza, it didn't quite double.  However, the Baltimore bridge/tunnel tolls did double in about a 3-year period (from $2 to $4 each way).
Prior to July 1, 2013, the base toll rate for the Baltimore Bridges/Tunnels was $3 each-way.  The increase from $2 to $3 for the Baltimore crossings occurred in 2003; a 10-year period.

Above-comment stricken after further review.

Prior to 2005, the base toll for the Newark Plaza was $2 each-way.  It went up to $3 in 2005 and then up to $4 in 2007.  Again, the latter increase 86ed all EZ-Pass discounts.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 10:36:53 AM by PHLBOS »
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Laura

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #468 on: October 16, 2014, 07:11:39 AM »


Not only did MD & NJ not raise their tolls in 2007 (they only raised them within the last 3 years) but they didn't double them within a 3-year period as well like DelDOT did.

Depends on what road you mean when you are talking about MD.  If you mean the JFK toll plaza, it didn't quite double.  However, the Baltimore bridge/tunnel tolls did double in about a 3-year period (from $2 to $4 each way).
Prior to July 1, 2013, the base toll rate for the Baltimore Bridges/Tunnels was $3 each-way.  The increase from $2 to $3 for the Baltimore crossings occurred in 2003; a 10-year period.

Prior to 2005, the base toll for the Newark Plaza was $2 each-way.  It went up to $3 in 2005 and then up to $4 in 2007.  Again, the latter increase 86ed all EZ-Pass discounts.

Nope. The base rate in Maryland for the Baltimore bridges/tunnels was $2 from 2003 until November 1, 2011, when the rate increased to $3. The rate then went up to $4 on July 1, 2013. So yes, the tolls doubled within 20 months.


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jeffandnicole

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #469 on: October 16, 2014, 08:34:41 AM »

Not only did MD & NJ not raise their tolls in 2007 (they only raised them within the last 3 years) but they didn't double them within a 3-year period as well like DelDOT did.  Since the reasoning for the increased shumpiking among trucks in DE is directly related to the exorbitant I-95 tolls in DE; comparing increased shunpiking rates & patterns for MD and/or NJ in this particular case is comparing apples & oranges.

What I'm trying to say though is, is there a corresponding increase in shunpiking?  The article mentioned 5 axle trailer revenue is down by 8%.  Is that entire 8% shunpiking? Or were there fewer trucks on the road to begin with.

What are the traffic counts on the shunpike routes?  That would be extremely important to know as well.

That's where the relevance of NJ & MD truck traffic comes in.  If truck traffic in NJ & MD was down by 5% in those states, and 8% in Delaware, then it can be reasonably concluded that shunpiking increased by 3%, not 8% as the article is trying to indicate, even if you don't use traffic counts.

Newspapers in general tend to focus on their own states' data.  And depending on how they are trying to angle the story, they would include or exclude other data.  In this case, it would be prudent to know how much truck traffic is out there in general.  Heck - if truck traffic was down 10% in MD & NJ, but only 8% in DE, then it would point out that shunpiking may not have increased at all.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #470 on: October 16, 2014, 09:04:56 AM »

Not sure where I got that 2003 date, but I stand corrected (& since edited my earlier posts).  Nonetheless, unlike the Newark/Elton shunpiking; bypassing the Baltimore Harbor crossings simply involves just using I-695 (the Outer loop) to get around such.  Though, one could also use I-83 into downtown and meander a bit to pick up I-395; but such would only be recommended during off-peak periods (non-rush hour nor sporting event).

For the Susquehanna River crossing (Havre DeGrace/Perryville) along I-95 North, there's no nearby free alternative (the US 40 East crossing is tolled at the same rate).  For most, getting to US 1 from either I-95 or US 40 in that area is a bit too convoluted for shunpiking.  IIRC, locals are still elligible for a discounted toll.   

What I'm trying to say though is, is there a corresponding increase in shunpiking?  The article mentioned 5 axle trailer revenue is down by 8%.  Is that entire 8% shunpiking? Or were there fewer trucks on the road to begin with.

What are the traffic counts on the shunpike routes?  That would be extremely important to know as well.

That's where the relevance of NJ & MD truck traffic comes in.  If truck traffic in NJ & MD was down by 5% in those states, and 8% in Delaware, then it can be reasonably concluded that shunpiking increased by 3%, not 8% as the article is trying to indicate, even if you don't use traffic counts.

Newspapers in general tend to focus on their own states' data.  And depending on how they are trying to angle the story, they would include or exclude other data.  In this case, it would be prudent to know how much truck traffic is out there in general.  Heck - if truck traffic was down 10% in MD & NJ, but only 8% in DE, then it would point out that shunpiking may not have increased at all.
While I agree in principle with most of what you just posted; there are several things to note:

1.  As mentioned, the focus of the article deals with the situation in the Newark, DE/Elton, MD area.  The locals there don't give a flying flip about truck traffic bypassing toll roads in the Baltimore area nor in New Jersey. 

The only parallel situation in NJ I can recall was when locals along US 206 & NJ 31 were screaming bloody murder about through-truck traffic using their roads as a means of linking the Trenton area to I-287 about two decades ago.  Then-Gov. Whitman signed a law essentially banning through-truck traffic from using those roads; the square NO 102 signs were posted (not just on those 2 roads) as a result.

2.  Unlike most of the toll road situations in the Baltimore area or NJ, this particular highway plaza has no free highway (examples: I-295 in central/south Jersey or I-695/Balt. Beltway) alternative nearby; OTOH one can exit the highway (at EXITS 1B-1A in DE) and get back on (at Exit 109) over a relatively short distance.
 
3.  From the article (bold emphasis added);
Quote
Toll revenues from the Newark plaza on I-95 slipped during the recession and haven't recovered like other comparable highways in the region, said Brian Motyl, assistant director of finance for the Delaware Transportation Department.
While it could be argued that the above-quote is more of a catch-all (aka CYA) statement; it's clearly insinuating that the toll revenue collected at the Newark Plaza is not seeing similar revenue trends as other toll plazas.

Another quote from the article:
Quote
Revenues for Delaware 1, which is a 51-mile toll road from Dover Air Force Base north to I-95, have not followed the same trend.

Long story short; while shunpiking certainly isn't unique to northern DE, the still-lower revenue totals of the Newark plaza is clearly reflecting either an increased uptick of such or the other toll facilities seeing a drop in such... shunpiking, that is.

Will the article have a more detailed follow-up to answer your above-questions?  Maybe you can chime in on the comment section.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 10:37:57 AM by PHLBOS »
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mrsman

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #471 on: October 19, 2014, 10:14:36 PM »

Basically, the higher the toll, the more people want to avoid the toll.

The lower the extra distance to bypass the toll, the greater the number of people who will bypass the toll.

The Newark, DE toll crossing is relatively high ($4) and is fairly easy way to avoid, so there will be a lot of shunpiking. 
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #472 on: November 09, 2014, 10:07:05 AM »

Does it not come to a quarter a mile with the 4 bucks?  I once read that it is the most expensive toll road in the nation.

Of course that was a few years back, so someone else might of took that title away if it was true when it was posted on Wikipedia.
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Re: Delaware
« Reply #473 on: November 09, 2014, 10:31:35 AM »

Does it not come to a quarter a mile with the 4 bucks?  I once read that it is the most expensive toll road in the nation.

Of course that was a few years back, so someone else might of took that title away if it was true when it was posted on Wikipedia.

Technically the $4 toll covers the entire 11-mile Delaware Turnpike, not just the segment between the state line and Exit 1. Same is said for the Susquehanna River Bridge toll for the JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland.

And speaking of the Newark Toll:

Truck toll-evasion patrols begin

Quote
Officials last week signed new agreements for 13 weeks of "enhanced enforcement" of toll evasion by heavy trucks and commercial vehicles along Del. 4/Christiana Parkway, and Del. 896 – routes restricted to local deliveries only.

The Delaware Department of Transportation hopes that reimplementing the enforcement will slow the decline of commercial toll revenues on I-95, which haven't recovered from the recession as have other tolled highways in the area, officials say.

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Re: Delaware
« Reply #474 on: November 09, 2014, 11:06:49 PM »

Technically the $4 toll covers the entire 11-mile Delaware Turnpike, not just the segment between the state line and Exit 1. Same is said for the Susquehanna River Bridge toll for the JFK Memorial Highway in Maryland.

I would buy that if the ramp tolls were still there (as IMO they should be in both Maryland and Delaware).   

But given that the ramp tolls in Delaware were removed in the mid-1970's and in Maryland in the early 1980's, then there is just one link on each highway that is actually tolled (and Maryland made matters worse by only tolling one direction at that one point).
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