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Author Topic: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?  (Read 74627 times)

sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #225 on: November 16, 2019, 12:30:56 PM »

Since the topic does fit well into this forum thread, I see no reason why it canít be discussed.

But I do agree, it probably will never be built - studies or not.
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #226 on: November 16, 2019, 12:34:02 PM »

and unlike the current bridge it could support a freeway route between I-95 at Carmel Church and I-97 at Dorrs Corner.
Isnít the new bridge being built with 2 ft right and left shoulders, and a narrow median barrier? Thatís a substandard design for a freeway. Not to mention, any I-95 bypass should realistically have at least 6 lanes when considering holidays, peak weekends, etc. travel.

The new substandard bridge could be incorporated, and be striped as 3 lanes one way, then construct a second parallel 3-lane bridge, resulting in two parallel 3-lane bridges. Iíd support such a concept.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #227 on: November 16, 2019, 01:09:33 PM »

I thought you said before that you had only made 3 such trips.  I rarely experience major congestion on the route other than maybe 5 or 10 minutes of delay occasionally and that is without using the HOT lanes.
Have you attempted using the general purpose lanes during peak hours in the direction of the HO/T lanes, say on any afternoon, notably Friday, southbound? Or even southbound on a Sunday where the peak flow is south yet the HO/T lanes are pointed northbound.
Your ď5 or 10 minutesĒ must have been during the week in the opposite direction of the HO/T flow.
I can tell you from personal experience, itís at least 30 minutes, if not more of delay between I-495 and the southern end of the HO/T lanes, and itís no better south of there. Fredericksburg -> Richmond is hit or miss. Somedays itís easy to flow 75 mph, other times itís free flow -> stop and -> free flow -> stop and go in the middle of nowhere. VA-30 to I-295 is a bottleneck as well.
So a Friday afternoon?   In the center of peak hours?  In the summer?

Is this like your assertions about the "$30+ tolls," based on an "app" that you were following?  I have posted several lists of real actual transaction data from my EZPass account and they have date-time stamps, and my average round trip tolls in or near peak hours are about half that; and by observing time estimates on the GP VMS and observing my total time between I-495 and I-295, the average delay is far less than that, rarely more than 15 minutes on the section that has no HOT lanes, sometimes none.

If the HOT lanes are needed on your trip to get around major congestion, then use them!

Said it before, Iíll say it again - there needs to be at least 8 general purpose lanes between I-295 and Fredericksburg, and at least 10 general purpose lanes north of Fredericksburg to the Springfield Interchange. Congestion isnít going anywhere, even if these bypasses get built.
So something like the northern NJTP.  They were timely with the section north of New Brunswick, 1970-75 completions, but the recent project was about 40 years after the 6 lanes was no longer adequate.

How is the NJTP funded?  How was the recent 35-mile project funded?

How would these 90 mile outer bypasses get funded? Iíd imagine by tolls of at least $15 - $20 or more for a full trip considering the heavy wetlands impacts, a Potomac River bridge crossing, and having at least 6 lanes (3 each way), 8 lanes (4 each way) in areas where needed, which that cost alone would deter a percentage of drivers, especially these large amount of ďregionalĒ trips you cite that exist. It could also deter local trips that should rather benefit from a bypass, especially for high costs, again continuing to add congestion to already choked I-95, US-301, I-495, I-270.
A repeated complaint of mine is the fact that Maryland didn't get at least one of these done back when it would have been much cheaper to build.

The serious regional problems that their intransigence has caused.

If they had agreed to their portion of the Western Transportation Corridor 20 years ago, it may have been all completed by now, or the last segment close to completion.   With the ~10-mile interchange spacing that VDOT was proposing, no one would have to worry about "sprawl development."

Unless VDOT and Maryland can develop some funding plan to get an at least $6 billion freeway built with low or no tolls, thatís what I see as the reality if anything is built / studied. And thatís just for one eastern or western bypass. Now try getting both the eastern and western built and creating a funding plan to buy down the needed high toll rates.
Your "I-95 super freeway" concept would probably cost that much, and would provide no relief or alternate to I-495.

If you want to fund it like the aforementioned NJTP widening projects were funded, then it could be built in a timely fashion.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #228 on: November 16, 2019, 01:12:44 PM »

and unlike the current bridge it could support a freeway route between I-95 at Carmel Church and I-97 at Dorrs Corner.
Isnít the new bridge being built with 2 ft right and left shoulders, and a narrow median barrier? Thatís a substandard design for a freeway. Not to mention, any I-95 bypass should realistically have at least 6 lanes when considering holidays, peak weekends, etc. travel.
They are still considering full shoulders.  You didn't seem to mind narrow shoulders on some other freeway bridges.

Six lanes isn't really needed there.  Four lanes of metropolitan freeway could handle 70,000 VPD without breathing hard, and an I-97 Extension to I-95 at Carmel Church probably would not come near that for many years.
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 01:19:12 PM by Beltway »
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #229 on: November 16, 2019, 01:45:45 PM »

You didn't seem to mind narrow shoulders on some other freeway bridges.
If youíre referring to the I-87 project in North Carolina, those bridges have 4 foot shoulders, which is permitted on long bridges, and I merely mentioned it was the preferred design by the study. I am not opposed to them widening the shoulders properly to 10 ft and all the bridges except 1 was built in the last 20 years, and replacing the one southbound 1950s bridge that lacks any shoulders near Hertford, and quite frankly think they should.

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Four lanes of metropolitan freeway could handle 70,000 VPD without breathing hard
Disagree. Just take a look at I-64, notably Richmond -> Williamsburg. Carries 60,000 AADT and is bottleneck half the time, and is a rural freeway with exits spaced for apart. Nearby to me, the VA-168 Chesapeake Expressway gets up to 70,000 AADT, and itís a bottleneck during peak hours.

When constructing a new freeway, 4-lanes should ideally be used for 40,000 AADT or less IMO looking at long-range projections. Anything higher, 6-lanes should definitely be considered. It was a mistake building the most recent part of the Expressway in 1999 with only 4-lanes, it needs at least 6-lanes, preferably 8-lanes until it drops to 50,000 AADT south of VA-165.

and an I-97 Extension to I-95 at Carmel Church probably would not come near that for many years.
And yet this bypass is supposed to significant relieve congestion in Northern Virginia?

And if it is projected to reach those numbers in ďyearsĒ, I thought it was good design practice to design a roadway now to accommodate future volumes. Keeping only 4-lanes over the Potomac River on a I-95 system route with over 50,000 AADT would only become another I-64 bottleneck between Williamsburg -> Richmond.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 01:47:56 PM by sprjus4 »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #230 on: November 16, 2019, 02:57:09 PM »

Since data being thrown around is from infrequent and peripheral experiences, here is some actual data during the peak period.

The average afternoon rush hour speed on I-495 outer loop main lanes during rush hour is frequently 20-25 mph for the entire stretch from the HOT lane entrance to Springfield.  This is based on actual posted times on the VMSs which I see 4 days a week.

On I-95 south it is usually a little better than that but it is rarely wide open north of Dumfries for any meaningful length.  South of Dumfries can be anywhere from wide open to crawling.  I save a minimum of 30-45 minutes a day.

How much are the tolls during peak times when I go through (entry onto 495 toll lanes is typically 5 to 5:15 and most days it is 30-35 min to Garrisonville)?

All values are 495 followed by 95 tolls:
9/30 - $17 + $23.40
10/1 - $19.65 + $24.25
10/2 - $19.05 + $31.20
10/3 - $21.50 + $30.70
10/7 - $19.45 + $26.05
10/9 - $18.15 + $26.65
10/10 - $29.40 + $27.10
10/21 - $21.20 + $26.50
10/22 - $30.90 + $35.35
10/23 - $21.40 + $31
10/24 - $20.20 + $37.95
10/28 - $19.40 + $25.45
10/29 - $20.20 + $26.80
10/30 - $25.95 + $32.60
10/31 - $28.45 + $22.45
Including Nov 5 because I took off an hour early...
11/5 - $17.40 + $27.70

The 95 NB toll at 5:15 a.m. entry is typically less than $10 to get to the beltway.  I don't use the 495 inner loop toll lanes in the morning but the toll posted is usually under $5 for the full length.

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jeffandnicole

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #231 on: November 16, 2019, 05:44:36 PM »

A new North South highway between Baltimore and Richmond should be discussed in the Fictional Highway forum, because it will never happen.
So you suggest that "New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?" be moved to the Fictional Highway forum?

This has been the subject of a number of official studies over the years and as recently as the early 2000s, plus the new 4-lane US-301 bridge has been approved and will start construction in the next year or so, and unlike the current bridge it could support a freeway route between I-95 at Carmel Church and I-97 at Dorrs Corner.

I vote to keep it here.

This was a bit tongue-in-cheek; a bit of how the thought of crossing the Potomac was getting expanded into a 200 mile highway in a very built up part of the nation. In fact, a semi realistic bypass of this length involves going east of DC and thus never crossing the Potomac.

Quote
How is the NJTP funded?  How was the recent 35-mile project funded?

You may already know the answer, but via tolls, via bonds to be paid by future tolls. For what it's worth, it was a 25 mile expansion (not 35) and cost about $2.3 Billion...in a relatively rural part of the state.  Of that 25 miles, 8 was a simple widening of one lane in each direction; 17 was basically building a new 6 lane highway parallel to an existing 6 lane highway.

Quote
So something like the northern NJTP.  They were timely with the section north of New Brunswick, 1970-75 completions, but the recent project was about 40 years after the 6 lanes was no longer adequate.

(then)

If you want to fund it like the aforementioned NJTP widening projects were funded, then it could be built in a timely fashion.

You see what you did there, right?

First you criticized the NJ Turnpike for taking decades longer than it should have taken to expand the turnpike, then you say VA can more timely widen a road just like the Jersey Turnpike. Reasons why it took so long to expand the turnpike include people don't want to pay tolls, they don't want to pay increased tolls, people don't want to give up land near highways, and people don't want to deal with construction. Oh, and dozens of multi-year local, state and federal studies. And a few lawsuits, real or threatened. And a lot of compromises.

One I recall involved a utility company. Apparently the company shorted the Jersey Turnpike some reimbursement money (like, hundreds of thousands of $$). The turnpike thought about taking them to court, but by doing so the utility company wouldn't have timely worked with the turnpike on that widening project. The turnpike forgave the reimbursement money on that unrelated project in order to get cooperation with more larger concerns.

It's certainly not as easy as just saying "hey that's incorporate tools and make it happen".
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #232 on: November 16, 2019, 05:49:49 PM »

Since data being thrown around is from infrequent and peripheral experiences, here is some actual data during the peak period.
[big snip]
The 95 NB toll at 5:15 a.m. entry is typically less than $10 to get to the beltway.  I don't use the 495 inner loop toll lanes in the morning but the toll posted is usually under $5 for the full length.
So as a peak period commuter you are able to average a low toll in the morning (~$9 for I-95) with a high toll in the evening (avg. $28.45 for I-95 in the evening).  About $19 per trip averaged over all for I-95.  (Leaving I-495 out of the I-95 discussion).

Not bad at all!
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 06:28:04 PM by Beltway »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #233 on: November 16, 2019, 05:58:57 PM »

If you want to fund it like the aforementioned NJTP widening projects were funded, then it could be built in a timely fashion.
You see what you did there, right?
First you criticized the NJ Turnpike for taking decades longer than it should have taken to expand the turnpike, then you say VA can more timely widen a road just like the Jersey Turnpike. Reasons why it took so long to expand the turnpike include people don't want to pay tolls, they don't want to pay increased tolls, people don't want to give up land near highways, and people don't want to deal with construction. Oh, and dozens of multi-year local, state and federal studies. And a few lawsuits, real or threatened. And a lot of compromises.
I get what you are saying, it is not a simple matter to analyze the alternatives in this case.

All your NJTP comments would apply to this segment of I-95 as well.  I was mainly trying to point out to a particular poster what would be involved in widening to 10 or 12 lanes between I-295 and I-495.

It probably would not be fundable within the foreseeable future without at least a few billion dollars in toll revenue bonds, in addition to the road user tax funding that could be obtained.
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 06:15:32 PM by Beltway »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #234 on: November 16, 2019, 06:12:41 PM »

Four lanes of metropolitan freeway could handle 70,000 VPD without breathing hard
Disagree. Just take a look at I-64, notably Richmond -> Williamsburg. Carries 60,000 AADT and is bottleneck half the time, and is a rural freeway with exits spaced for apart. Nearby to me, the VA-168 Chesapeake Expressway gets up to 70,000 AADT, and itís a bottleneck during peak hours.
I wouldn't see the I-97 Extension having the high rush hour peaks at the Potomac River that would be seen on a local radial freeway like VA-168.

A metropolitan freeway is more tolerable with peak congestion that a long distance rural freeway like I-64.

When constructing a new freeway, 4-lanes should ideally be used for 40,000 AADT or less IMO looking at long-range projections. Anything higher, 6-lanes should definitely be considered.
True for a rural Interstate long-distance highway.

and an I-97 Extension to I-95 at Carmel Church probably would not come near that for many years.
And yet this bypass is supposed to significant relieve congestion in Northern Virginia?
Yes, and the other function is to provide an alternative route -- I-97 passing east of NoVA to Baltimore, connecting to US-50 to Annapolis and the MD Eastern Shore, connecting to I-695, I-895 and I-95 North.

And if it is projected to reach those numbers in ďyearsĒ, I thought it was good design practice to design a roadway now to accommodate future volumes.
Start with the new 4-lane bridge, I-97 can utilize that.  Build a parallel 3-lane bridge in the future when traffic warrants exist.  Don't worry about it now, get to it in the future.
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 06:24:34 PM by Beltway »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #235 on: November 16, 2019, 10:26:12 PM »

In my experience, Richmond-DC has been worse than DC-Baltimore.  I've experienced severe congestion on Richmond-DC 2/3 of the time,
I thought you said before that you had only made 3 such trips.  I rarely experience major congestion on the route other than maybe 5 or 10 minutes of delay occasionally and that is without using the HOT lanes.
Yes, and 2 of the 3 times had SEVERE gridlock.  Even south of the HOT lanes.  I'm talking about a whole hour of delay.  The one time I didn't have issues?  8 AM on Columbus Day.
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #236 on: November 16, 2019, 10:35:00 PM »

In my experience, Richmond-DC has been worse than DC-Baltimore.  I've experienced severe congestion on Richmond-DC 2/3 of the time,
I thought you said before that you had only made 3 such trips.  I rarely experience major congestion on the route other than maybe 5 or 10 minutes of delay occasionally and that is without using the HOT lanes.
Yes, and 2 of the 3 times had SEVERE gridlock.  Even south of the HOT lanes.  I'm talking about a whole hour of delay.  The one time I didn't have issues?  8 AM on Columbus Day.
The entire I-95 corridor is a bottleneck between DC -> Richmond, HO/T lanes present or not. The ď15 minutesĒ of delay assertion is an understatement. Iíve frequently exceeded an hour+ of delay, and often a simply routing on Google during congestion will estimate at least 45-55 minutes longer, which is the reality.

I probably sound like a broken record, but I-95 needs a minimum of 8 lanes, preferably 10-12 north of Fredericksburg - for the entire corridor between DC and Richmond, and VDOT has refused to ever study in detail such a buildout. Even if this magical DC bypass is built with $20 tolls, congestion isnít going to get relieved much, and nothing will be relieved south of Fredericksburg or Ruther Glen, depending on alignment.

Austin, TX had a long-distance bypass constructed for I-35 thru traffic, which is a major freight / regional / thru traffic corridor in central Texas linking Oklahoma -> Dallas / Fort Worth -> Austin -> San Antonio -> Laredo -> Mexico, and connects with I-37 to Corpus Christi, the Rio Grande Valley, and Mexico. It does wonders for thru traffic willing to pay the $14-$19 toll (TxTAG or Toll By Plate) on the 90 mile bypass, speaking from experience almost no delay with the exception of one segment that is currently being widened from 4 to 6 lanes, but traffic congestion nonetheless in central Austin on I-35 is horrendous and hasnít seen much relief if any. And appropriately so, TXDOT has extensively studied and is going to upgrade I-35 into a mutlibillion dollar mega freeway, with multiple carriageways each way, overhauled interchanges, more lanes, etc. and no HO/T lanes or tolls included.

Bypasses benefit thru traffic, which is a small percentage of all the traffic in the DC metro, and building one would have long reaching national significance and allow thru traffic an easy way around for $20-$30 (those willing to pay that is), but would not do much to the majority of the traffic which would still be stuck in massive gridlock that VDOT has failed to study and fix for decades, and refuses to further study, unless it includes Transurbanís lanes.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 10:51:26 PM by sprjus4 »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #237 on: November 17, 2019, 12:27:29 AM »

Yep, I-95 south of DC is the drive I dread most in the entire country, actually.  Never get through there without some sort of stupid delay.

I hate it more than anything in Chicagoland or LA, for example.

It is just a frustrating configuration that I think would have been better handled through more general purpose lanes than the reversible express lane nonsense.
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #238 on: November 17, 2019, 01:27:07 AM »

Yep, I-95 south of DC is the drive I dread most in the entire country, actually.  Never get through there without some sort of stupid delay.

I hate it more than anything in Chicagoland or LA, for example.

It is just a frustrating configuration that I think would have been better handled through more general purpose lanes than the reversible express lane nonsense.
Agreed, or an express concept going both ways, but without tolls and no exit points, strictly for long distance thru traffic leaving / originating in Northern Virginia, similar to the 3+3 concept Iíve touted on here in previous posts. This concept has been used in other areas, and not merely just the New Jersey Turnpike, and has been used in other areas without tolls any lanes or HOV restriction.

It would have significant congestion relief to ALL drivers rather than only those who opt to pay at least $20+ during peak hours. With the high taxes people pay in this state and Northern Virginia, maybe use that money on a project such as this, rather than the continuous stream of HO/T projects that have been non-stop since 2012. They began 8-lane widening (not enough, but a start and has helped) between I-495 and the Occoquan River, but then all of a sudden refused to study extending that further south once Transurban converted the HOV lanes into HO/T operations, and essentially blocked VDOT from doing any general purpose improvements that would hurt their revenue stream. They rejected a project and/or study for 8-lane widening to VA-234 due to compensation events, just recently rejected any GP widening between Woodbridge -> Fredericksburg, but then proposed widening a few miles to 8-lanes to US-1 south of where Transurbanís territory (extending from Fredericksburg to Maryland) ends, and they refuse to extend the megafreeway 3+3 concept theyíre properly & rightfully building in Fredericksburg into Transurbanís territory, which would bring massive traffic benefits all the way to Maryland that benefits ALL traffic, not just those wanting to pay $20+ during peak hours, that right now only Fredericksburg is getting.

It was proposed years back (a 3+3 each way between Fredericksburg and Woodrow Wilson Bridge) before VDOT went HO/T lane crazy in 2012 and suspended all general purpose improvements in favor of tolls as the solution for everything inside of Transurbanís territory.

How long will it be until Transurbanís territory will extend to I-295 or further into Richmond and tolls will be implemented on every GP improvement?

The traffic situation on I-95 is horrendous and will only get worse. The state has zero proposed improvements, and continues to sit around twiddling itís thumbs. Itís a shame how bad itís gotten, and that the state cannot get serious about the problems. Bypass or not (which that in itself is a pipe dream - an overhaul of I-95 is a more realistic proposal IMO), traffic is going to get more severe and congestion will worsen, and Virginia needs to get serious and develop a long-range plan to overhaul I-95 with GP expansions without tolling, and work vigorously to get it constructed as soon as possible. As hard as it may be for some posters to accept the fact tolls cannot be the answer to everything, and that a good number of people strongly oppose tolls, itís reality. The current setup is quite frankly unacceptable, even with the Transurbanís toll lanes which donít do much to benefit traffic except people paying $20+ during peak hours and HOV (something that a 3+3 setup would provide congestion relief to ALL traffic) and will remain such until the state gets moving.

Iím thankful I no longer have to go thru that area as frequently as I have in the past.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 01:58:05 AM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #239 on: November 17, 2019, 08:37:30 AM »

Yep, I-95 south of DC is the drive I dread most in the entire country, actually.  Never get through there without some sort of stupid delay.
I hate it more than anything in Chicagoland or LA, for example.
But you don't hate anything in New York City, which has the 3 worst Interstate highways in the country (well one of them is tied with the Schuylkill).  Albany should focus on problems in their own state and not complain about others.

I have made hundreds of trips between Richmond and Washington and 9/10 of the time I don't have a major delay.  If you are not willing to use the HOT lanes then what can I say Ö
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 09:17:10 AM by Beltway »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #240 on: November 17, 2019, 08:43:05 AM »

It was proposed years back (a 3+3 each way between Fredericksburg and Woodrow Wilson Bridge) <<< snips >>>
How many times are you going to repost this screed?

Two outer Washington bypasses (possibly 3 or 4) were planned years back as well.  Where are they, even one?

What you want to build (down to I-295) will require at least $3 billion in toll revenue bonds even if $2 to 3 billion can be found in road user taxes.

That means that all lanes will be tolled between I-295 and I-495.  I am not opposed to that.
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 09:19:21 AM by Beltway »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #241 on: November 17, 2019, 08:45:04 AM »

I have made so many trips through NYC that I think I don't mind the congestion as much because the physical length of the congestion hasn't been anywhere close to the jams I have experienced on I-95 south of DC.  Multiple times, I-95 has been jammed from I-495 to as far south as Fredericksburg (more frequently around Aquia).  We're talking miles and miles of congestion in that regard. 

When I travel through NYC, you have the relatively short Cross Bronx and Trans-Manhattan.  On the west side of the GWB, you have that arch bridge where my father jokes, "This is where I feel like I can exhale."  And sure, the NJTP gets jammed, but not as frequently and not for the lengths that I-95 south of DC does.

So, yeah, I tolerate NYC much better than I-95 in northern VA.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #242 on: November 17, 2019, 08:49:46 AM »

When I travel through NYC, you have the relatively short Cross Bronx and Trans-Manhattan.  On the west side of the GWB, you have that arch bridge where my father jokes, "This is where I feel like I can exhale." 

Try looking at it from the perspective of someone who needs to regularly travel between Long Island and the other side of NYC (as in NJ or Westchester Co. or beyond).  Worst in the country and LI has almost the population of Maryland.
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 09:18:15 AM by Beltway »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #243 on: November 17, 2019, 10:20:00 AM »

When I travel through NYC, you have the relatively short Cross Bronx and Trans-Manhattan.  On the west side of the GWB, you have that arch bridge where my father jokes, "This is where I feel like I can exhale." 

Try looking at it from the perspective of someone who needs to regularly travel between Long Island and the other side of NYC (as in NJ or Westchester Co. or beyond).  Worst in the country and LI has almost the population of Maryland.
Nah, that's not the worst in the country.  Congestion in NYC has come down relative to other urban regions in the last decade or so. 

And, heck, I know the guy that calculated official PHD for the LIE.  He artificially inflated the number since he's from Long Island and felt the actual data was not representative. :D

Still, if someone is making that commute, they should rethink living on Long Island in any matter. :D
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #244 on: November 17, 2019, 10:31:25 AM »

I have made hundreds of trips between Richmond and Washington and 9/10 of the time I don't have a major delay.
I frankly find that hard to believe. Iíve made hundreds of trips myself in the past 10 years, and at least half the time, if not more, thereís at least 30-40 minutes if not more of delay.

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If you are not willing to use the HOT lanes then what can I say Ö
So if somebody doesnít want to pay $20+ during peak hours to bypass traffic, they have no right to complain about traffic and the fact VDOT has failed to fix the issues?

Just because you have the luxury of willing to pay the $20+ peak hour tolls and rack up hundreds of dollars of tolls per year to save 30 minutes on a trip, then claim thereís almost no congestion that exists in the GP lanes when thatís a fallacy, doesnít mean everybody is willing to and can afford it, and just because HO/T lanes exist does NOT mean that VDOT should just suspend all future GP improvements on that corridor because HO/T lanes are the solution and have already been implemented.

The GP lanes still exist, they have some of the worst congestion on the East Coast, and they shouldnít just be ignored just because itís in Transurbanís territory and any GP improvements would hurt their revenue stream.

What you want to build (down to I-295) will require at least $3 billion in toll revenue bonds even if $2 to 3 billion can be found in road user taxes.
The concept I suggested, the 3+3 would only be for 35 miles on I-95 between north of US-17 and I-495, not the entire corridor. The southern end of the 3+3 is already being built as we speak, it would not go further than that. Maybe 8-lane widening, but thatís another topic.

The bypass you propose would costs billions of dollars, likely much costlier than a 3+3 on I-95 would cost. How do you propose we pay for that in a way that would maximize the amount of traffic utilizing it?

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That means that all lanes will be tolled between I-295 and I-495.  I am not opposed to that.
People avoid paying the high Transurban fee now. If you tolled all lanes, and stuck a high toll on them, that would only place a burden on parallel roads that already face problems.

I think youíre in the minority when you support tolling on that corridor - notably commuters, who make up vast majority of the traffic now despite your claims a lot is thru, who already will not pay the Transurbanís high fee now.

A 3+3 could reasonably cost $100 million per mile on average when comparing to the Fredericksburg project, which had cheaper per mile rights AND caused a river, so about $3.5 - $4 billion.

That could reasonably be funded in the way I-81 was. A tax increase along with other fees increased appropriately and bonds to be repaid through those sources. And not to mention - I-95 already has some allocation from the I-81 program. Pitch in some money from Northern Virginia, which already has a higher tax that seems to all go for tolls, and it could reasonably get done without tolling for that 35 mile stretch.

This is a project that Virginia could study in detail themselves, work to get funding allocated to it, and get built within 10 years if they started now. Itís a lot less costly then an entire outer bypass would be, doesnít require cooperating with a state who you claim refuses to study such a corridor, and can be done a lot sooner than a 90 mile outer bypass would be. Not to mention, such improvements would likely be necessary even with an outer bypass, despite what youíve claimed.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 10:39:53 AM by sprjus4 »
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sprjus4

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #245 on: November 17, 2019, 10:34:25 AM »

Congestion in NYC has come down relative to other urban regions in the last decade or so.
And the I-95 corridor has continued to get worse, and now extends 30+ miles down to Fredericksburg, despite the Transurbanís $20+ peak hour lanes.

When I drove through NY and LA in the past, the traffic congestion was comparable to Northern Virginia. It was even faster at some times.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #246 on: November 17, 2019, 02:54:17 PM »

Try looking at it from the perspective of someone who needs to regularly travel between Long Island and the other side of NYC (as in NJ or Westchester Co. or beyond).  Worst in the country and LI has almost the population of Maryland.
Nah, that's not the worst in the country.  Congestion in NYC has come down relative to other urban regions in the last decade or so. 
And, heck, I know the guy that calculated official PHD for the LIE.  He artificially inflated the number since he's from Long Island and felt the actual data was not representative. :D
Still, if someone is making that commute, they should rethink living on Long Island in any matter. :D
I didn't say that it had to be a "commute."  Just regular use.  People who would have that need, which is not just people who live on LI (referring the suburban LI of Suffolk and Nassau counties), but people from the mainland that need to travel there.

As you imply, it is not feasible and few people even try.  So yeah given the number of people on LI it is a far worse situation than anything else in the U.S.

Another major problem is the poor freight railroad system.  Much of the country 30-40% of the modal share of tonnage is by railroad.  LI is only about 2% by railroad, so that means the bulk of it needs to move by truck.  What do trucks drive on?  Eh?
 
It's no wonder that many Long Islanders have a love-hate feeling toward where they live.
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 02:59:47 PM by Beltway »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #247 on: November 17, 2019, 03:37:03 PM »

I have made hundreds of trips between Richmond and Washington and 9/10 of the time I don't have a major delay.
I frankly find that hard to believe. Iíve made hundreds of trips myself in the past 10 years, and at least half the time, if not more, thereís at least 30-40 minutes if not more of delay.
Really?  Really?  Why does someone in VA Beach need to take an average of 30+ trips a year to the D.C. area for 10 years?

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If you are not willing to use the HOT lanes then what can I say Ö
So if somebody doesnít want to pay $20+ during peak hours to bypass traffic, they have no right to complain about traffic and the fact VDOT has failed to fix the issues?
You continue to ignore Maryland's failures to help build at least one outer bypass.

What would the NYC area look like if New Jersey never bothered to build the GSP up to NY I-287, and never built their portions of I-287?

What would Philadelphia and SE PA look like if Delaware and New Jersey didn't proactively build the bridge and NJTP, an Interstate standard pre-I-95 route, and then in the Interstate era double the bridge and build I-295 to provide the needed linkages and major capacity expansions in this SE PA bypass?

Pennsylvania didn't have to do one foot of construction to build that outer freeway I-95 bypass of Philadelphia and SE PA.  PA I-95 has its major problems but they are greatly relieved by that DE-NJ route pair.

I'm getting vomiting (the material that comes out of your mouth when you have an upset stomach) sick and tired of these demands that Virginia build a hyper-freeway expansion because of Maryland's failings in this region.

Maryland shares the Washington region with D.C. and Virginia, and they are responsible to help address traffic needs in the region.  They have failed and they continue to fail, miserably.

Just because you have the luxury of willing to pay the $20+ peak hour tolls and rack up hundreds of dollars of tolls per year
My average this year is $15.65 for 28 trips, and that doesn't include averaging in zero for at least 5 trips when I used the GP lanes.

It is not a "luxury."  Tens of thousands of middle-class people (like the commuter that has posted his HOT details here) find that the benefits far outweigh the costs.

What you want to build (down to I-295) will require at least $3 billion in toll revenue bonds even if $2 to 3 billion can be found in road user taxes.
The concept I suggested, the 3+3 would only be for 35 miles on I-95 between north of US-17 and I-495, not the entire corridor. The southern end of the 3+3 is already being built as we speak, it would not go further than that. Maybe 8-lane widening, but thatís another topic.
Plus another 45 miles of widening between I-295 and VA-3, to "at least 8 lanes" per your comments.

$4 billion at rock bottom, probably over $5 billion.

The bypass you propose would costs billions of dollars,
I am complaining that Maryland didn't build at least one back when was much easier to afford.

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That means that all lanes will be tolled between I-295 and I-495.  I am not opposed to that.
People avoid paying the high Transurban fee now. If you tolled all lanes, and stuck a high toll on them, that would only place a burden on parallel roads that already face problems.
Not on US-1, far to low type to handle any significant diversion.

That could reasonably be funded in the way I-81 was.
Nope.  That is only funding 60 miles of simple one-lane widening on a 325-mile route.

Your scheme would require at least $2 billion and probably $3 billion in toll revenue bonds.

If you really really want it, that should be your focus.
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Beltway

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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #248 on: November 17, 2019, 03:41:49 PM »

When I drove through NY and LA in the past, the traffic congestion was comparable to Northern Virginia. It was even faster at some times.

Try the S.F. Bay area.  I have not driven there, but numbers of posters that live there have posted on another highway forum that there are at least 250 miles of freeway that sound worse than anything reported on I-95.

Again, try Long Island <-> west of NYC or north of NYC.
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 03:44:28 PM by Beltway »
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Re: New crossings of the Potomac River between Md. and Va.?
« Reply #249 on: November 17, 2019, 04:10:01 PM »

Really?  Really?  Why does someone in VA Beach need to take an average of 30+ trips a year to the D.C. area for 10 years?
I could easily ask you the same questions, somebody in Richmond taking 30+ trips thru the area annually, but have I?

First off, I've had to travel up to the Northern Virginia region significantly more in the past couple of years due to family and personal reasons, but have gone up there at least a few times per year prior to that. As of now, I won't be going up there nearly as often, but there's still the occasional here and there. Secondly, at least 4 of my trips thru there this year have been thru travel to the northwest.

I've always utilized the general purpose lanes leaving the area, with the exception of the HO/T lanes when there were more than 2 people in the car which then it was free.

You continue to ignore Maryland's failures to help build at least one outer bypass.
You continue to ignore Virginia's failures to construct any improvements to the general purpose lanes south of Woodbridge since the 1980s to mitigate the lack of a bypass.

What would the NYC area look like if New Jersey never bothered to build the GSP up to NY I-287, and never built their portions of I-287?

What would Philadelphia and SE PA look like if Delaware and New Jersey didn't proactively build the bridge and NJTP, an Interstate standard pre-I-95 route, and then in the Interstate era double the bridge and build I-295 to provide the needed linkages and major capacity expansions in this SE PA bypass?

Pennsylvania didn't have to do one foot of construction to build that outer freeway I-95 bypass of Philadelphia and SE PA.  PA I-95 has its major problems but they are greatly relieved by that DE-NJ route pair.
There's a significant amount of thru traffic in that area, many travelers originating in the Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland metro, others coming from DE-1, heading to places such as New York City, and points northeast as far as Boston, compared to thru traffic in the Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland metro, which is more of an origin / destination if anything for most traffic heading northeast / south. It's a poor comparison to make. You can build a megafreeway like the NJTP around Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland, but it's going to carry half or less the amount of traffic the NJTP carries. Most traffic as I mentioned above is coming from / to Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland, and will have find no benefits of a bypass.

I'm getting vomiting (the material that comes out of your mouth when you have an upset stomach) sick and tired of these demands that Virginia build a hyper-freeway expansion because of Maryland's failings in this region.
See comments above. You can build bypasses all day long, but if the majority of traffic is originating / destined for Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland, which it is, the main route in/out needs to be expanded into a megafreeway with a 3+3 carriageway to accommodate that regional movement. A bypass will not benefit the majority of I-95 motorists, which you continue to believe is all thru traffic.

Maryland shares the Washington region with D.C. and Virginia, and they are responsible to help address traffic needs in the region.  They have failed and they continue to fail, miserably.
Virginia is the one who continues to fail miserably with properly expanding I-95 as needed. How is Maryland supposed to help address the traffic needs of the vast majority of the motorists traveling the I-95 corridor from Richmond, Hampton Roads, and points south destined to Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland when such bypass would completely avoid the area?

Tens of thousands of middle-class people (like the commuter that has posted his HOT details here) find that the benefits far outweigh the costs.
Hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of people stick with the general purpose lanes over the HO/T lanes, and they have to deal with the extensive backups that are widespread down the entire I-95 corridor because they opt not to pay the expensive tolls. If everybody used the HO/T lanes, then why are the HO/T lanes free-flowing and the general purpose lanes are horribly congested?

Plus another 45 miles of widening between I-295 and VA-3, to "at least 8 lanes" per your comments.

$4 billion at rock bottom, probably over $5 billion.
A bypass would likely cost well over $5 billion, and benefit a small percentage of people compared to the amount of people a megafreeway along I-95 would benefit, the vast majority of travelers originating from Richmond, Hampton Roads, and points south destined to Northern Virginia / Southern Maryland, and the small amount of thru traffic.

I am complaining that Maryland didn't build at least one back when was much easier to afford.
You can complain all day long about the past, but that's behind us. We need to look towards the future, and right now, the most feasible option to relieving congestion and benefiting the most amount of people would be a 3+3 setup. Ideally, a bypass and 3+3 setup would be the best thing, but a 3+3 setup is definitely a place to start.

Not on US-1, far to low type to handle any significant diversion.
US-1 is already clogged, as is I-95. There are a decent amount of people who will avoid tolls at all costs, and would only choke US-1 more.

Nope.  That is only funding 60 miles of simple one-lane widening on a 325-mile route.

Your scheme would require at least $2 billion and probably $3 billion in toll revenue bonds.
It doesn't matter what it's funding, it's just the amount, the cost it's funding - which is $2 billion. An I-95 expansion that costs $5 - $6 billion could be funded in a similar manner generally, if it was pursued. You've mentioned in the past that the special tax district and fees increased funding I-81 should be extended in the future for a Phase 2 to widen all 325 miles of I-81 to 6 lanes. You're talking at least $10 billion there. The same idea here with I-95.
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