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[citrus]

Anyone know if this will also result in a change in direction? It seems to me that new 395 in DC should be signed East-West.

[odditude]

Anyone know if this will also result in a change in direction? It seems to me that new 395 in DC should be signed East-West.

ehhh... while i would agree with you if we were just looking at i-395 in a vacuum, it would result in another situation where the spur Eastbound would go be northwest of the mainline which is heading Northbound. i'm not a fan of this in PA (at the I-95/I-295/Turnpike interchange), and i'm not a fan of it here.

[Alps]

I'm team 995 myself. That would also give DC the highest number.

[froggie]

A better option would be replacing 395 in VA with 695,

It's worth noting that part of existing I-395 is in Fairfax County, which also has a SR 695 along Idylwood Rd and Kirby Rd in Dunn Loring and McLean.

[1995hoo]

Maybe DC should take a page out of California's book and number the tunnel as I-150.

[WillWeaverRVA]

With the redesigned 11th Street Bridge, they could almost do away with I-395 altogether and have I-295 run from where it currently does up over the bridge and then back down what is now I-395 to the Springfield Interchange. But the I-395 number is so entrenched that it would be a radical change, whereas getting rid of I-695 would not be.

I'd leave 295 alone since I-295 and DC 295 function as a single route as-is. A better option would be replacing 395 in VA with 695, leaving 395 on just the spur through the 3rd Street Tunnel.

What they're doing is probably less confusing for the public, though, and doesn't require VDOT's involvement. I do agree that they should've gone with 995 though.

I feel like renumbering the whole thing I-695 would have made more sense (and leaving the Center Leg as I-395), since the route will now connect two interstates and is basically a loop, but you've got a point about 395 being fairly entrenched in the area.

[1995hoo]

^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number—a claim I think is ridiculous, of course—then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest–Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.

[cpzilliacus]

^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number—a claim I think is ridiculous, of course—then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest–Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.

If it were I-695 from Springfield across D.C. (and maybe including what is now I-295 in D.C. and Maryland), then you have two Maryland I-695's, and a potential for confusion for out-of-town people thinking that I-695 in Springfield is the same road as I-695 around Baltimore.

[1995hoo]

^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number—a claim I think is ridiculous, of course—then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest–Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.

If it were I-695 from Springfield across D.C. (and maybe including what is now I-295 in D.C. and Maryland), then you have two Maryland I-695's, and a potential for confusion for out-of-town people thinking that I-695 in Springfield is the same road as I-695 around Baltimore.

I assumed WillWeaverRVA was referring solely to the existing I-395 and I-695, not to I-295, because the comment from Roadsguy to which he was responding referred to leaving I-295 and DC-295 alone. Otherwise, I would completely agree with you—changing the existing I-295 in DC to I-695 wouldn't work for the same reason why my brain fart–induced comment about extending I-295 down I-395 to the Springfield Interchange wouldn't work, as vdeane correctly noted.

In other words, I was assuming WillWeaverRVA meant I-295 and DC-295 would stay as they are, but I-395 would be truncated to include solely the Center Leg Freeway (more commonly known as the Third Street Tunnel) and I-695 would be extended down to Springfield to cover the rest of what has long been I-395. I tend to think that scenario would provoke more confusion, even though the putative I-695 wouldn't enter Maryland, and I also think I-395 is so well-entrenched in the DC area (having been here since the 1970s) that it would be counterproductive to change the Virginia portion.

Edited to add: froggie makes a valid comment as well about the existence of a secondary route 695 in Fairfax County, though I daresay that number is not well-known and would not itself be a reason for widespread confusion. Off the top of my head, now that the Fairfax County Parkway is no longer Route 7100, the only secondary route number I routinely hear used is Route 644, which the traffic reporters refer to that way in no small part because it changes names when it crosses I-95 (and it's also likely faster to say "644" than "Old Keene Mill Road" even though they're the same number of syllables). Of course there are BGSs that list secondary route numbers (Van Dorn Street, Telegraph Road, Braddock Road, and Gallows Road all come to mind on the Beltway, as does Edsall Road on I-395), but that doesn't mean area residents ever use those numbers. As you know, my neighborhood is near Van Dorn Street and I have never used "Route 613" in giving directions in the almost 20 years I've lived in my house.

[Roadsguy]

^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number—a claim I think is ridiculous, of course—then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest–Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.

If it were I-695 from Springfield across D.C. (and maybe including what is now I-295 in D.C. and Maryland), then you have two Maryland I-695's, and a potential for confusion for out-of-town people thinking that I-695 in Springfield is the same road as I-695 around Baltimore.

I would expect the extended 695 to end at I-/DC 295 as it does today, since as I said earlier, the two 295s function as a single route, though the 295/695 interchange does for some reason include the I-295-to-I-695 movements as the freeway mainline for some reason, perhaps a mentality holdover from when I-295 officially made that movement. (I do think they should renumber DC 295's mileage and exits to be an extension of I-295's mileage, eliminating the weird setup where the two 295's are signed as numbered exits from each other despite both being continuations of the Anacostia Freeway.)

The SR 695 in Fairfax County (Does VDOT duplicate secondary route numbers in different counties?) could probably be renumbered fairly easily, but again, the advantage to what DDOT is actually doing is that VDOT isn't involved at all. I doubt they'd be too eager to renumber two entire routes, including a major Interstate (not to mention getting Transurban involved to change all the "395 Express Lanes" materials), just to help DDOT tidy up their route network a bit.

[1]

(Does VDOT duplicate secondary route numbers in different counties?)

Yes.

[WillWeaverRVA]

I assumed WillWeaverRVA was referring solely to the existing I-395 and I-695, not to I-295, because the comment from Roadsguy to which he was responding referred to leaving I-295 and DC-295 alone. Otherwise, I would completely agree with you—changing the existing I-295 in DC to I-695 wouldn't work for the same reason why my brain fart–induced comment about extending I-295 down I-395 to the Springfield Interchange wouldn't work, as vdeane correctly noted.

In other words, I was assuming WillWeaverRVA meant I-295 and DC-295 would stay as they are, but I-395 would be truncated to include solely the Center Leg Freeway (more commonly known as the Third Street Tunnel) and I-695 would be extended down to Springfield to cover the rest of what has long been I-395. I tend to think that scenario would provoke more confusion, even though the putative I-695 wouldn't enter Maryland, and I also think I-395 is so well-entrenched in the DC area (having been here since the 1970s) that it would be counterproductive to change the Virginia portion.

Yeah, that's where I was heading.

[jmacswimmer]

If it were I-695 from Springfield across D.C. (and maybe including what is now I-295 in D.C. and Maryland), then you have two Maryland I-695's, and a potential for confusion for out-of-town people thinking that I-695 in Springfield is the same road as I-695 around Baltimore.

I do wonder if having I-695 present at Springfield would trip up more long-distance traffic coming up I-95 from the Carolinas/Hampton Roads who upon reaching this sign (and then the exit 170 signage a few miles further), might wonder why they're now being told to take I-695 to Washington but I-95 to Baltimore, when they're probably more well aware of the I-695 Baltimore Beltway.  At least the current DC I-695 isn't "seen" by long-distance traffic that sticks with I-95 around the Capital Beltway.

(Then again, I believe GPS's often offer I-395/I-695/DC 295/B-W Parkway as a thru route across DC ever since the 11th street Bridges were reconstructed...)

...the advantage to what DDOT is actually doing is that VDOT isn't involved at all. I doubt they'd be too eager to renumber two entire routes, including a major Interstate (not to mention getting Transurban involved to change all the "395 Express Lanes" materials), just to help DDOT tidy up their route network a bit.

Having spent time as an on-site consultant for a DOT, I wholeheartedly agree that the fewer agencies involved, the better!

I'm team 995 myself. That would also give DC the highest number.

Having the highest number also be the one that gets closest to the seat of the federal government seems oddly fitting as well, IMHO.

(Although FWIW, USDOT would still be closer to current I-695/future-realigned I-395... )

[mrsman]

^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number—a claim I think is ridiculous, of course—then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest–Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.

While an interstate purist would prefer an even number like 695, since it will now connect 2 interstates, we certainly do not need the confusion of renumbering the entire Shirley Highway.  Under the current plan, only the short highway connections east of the interchange with the 3d street tunnel will get renumbered.

And there may be a good call to make this E-W through DC, but there is no reason to change the cardinal direction in VA.  One good argument to make the change in DC is the confusion of driving through the 11th st bridge.  From 295, you are driving in cardinal direction north over the bridge before you hit the SE Fwy, then you head cardinal direction west along the SE Fwy and the SW Fwy until you get to the 14th st bridge.  It would be more confusing, IMO, to sign this as 395 south, especially while heading north over the 11th st bridge.

295 around Trenton has its own problems and I'm not sure that it's relevant to the discussion here.

[jmacswimmer]

^^^

Another option for DDOT is to take the approach VDOT does with the wrong-way portions of I-295 & I-64 and just omit signing cardinal directions - instead, go with "I-395 TO I-295/DC 295" and "I-395 Downtown". (Not unlike how it's currently done for I-695...Now that I think about it, the existing signs for I-695 at both termini already omit cardinal directions, so I wouldn't be surprised if DDOT just continues that precedent.)

[roadman65]

Wasn’t I-395 changed in 1984? I heard from a reliable source on here whom I know in person that it was never signed all these years, but 395 and 695 shields were never changed.

As we all know that is pretty common among state agencies.

[cpzilliacus]

Wasn’t I-395 changed in 1984? I heard from a reliable source on here whom I know in person that it was never signed all these years, but 395 and 695 shields were never changed.

As we all know that is pretty common among state agencies.

No.  It was I-95 up to about 1974, then it I-395 replaced all of I-95 inside  the Capital Beltway. 

[sturmde]

Frankly, let's renumber it all as I-666 inside the beltway.
.
Seriously though, I'd have renumbered 395 and 695 to 595, and left the Center Leg 395.  Since Maryland's 595 isn't signed, there's then no confusion. 

[The Ghostbuster]

Interstate 95 was renumbered to Interstate 395 in 1977, after all of 95 north of New York Avenue was canceled. The Southeast Freeway has always been Interstate 695, but it was not signed until 2011 when the 11th Street Bridges were renumbered from Interstate 295 to Interstate 695. 695 was once proposed to continue westward with then-95 along the Southwest Freeway, and then along an unbuilt tunnel past the Lincoln Memorial to terminate at Interstate 66. A later proposal was to extend 695 east of its former terminus at Pennsylvania Ave./Barney Circle to connect with DC 295. That was killed in favor of making the 11th Street Bridges interchange with Interstate/DC 295 from a partial interchange into a full interchange, which was completed in 2011.

[1995hoo]

Frankly, let's renumber it all as I-666 inside the beltway.
.
Seriously though, I'd have renumbered 395 and 695 to 595, and left the Center Leg 395.  Since Maryland's 595 isn't signed, there's then no confusion. 

I don’t think that’s a good option because I-595 might wind up signed someday. For precedent, just look at the roads we are discussing in DC. I never expected I-695 to be signed.

[davewiecking]

I believe we’ve come full circle. I found some early 60’s freeway proposal maps and was going to post them, but figured first I’d see if they were already here. First page of this thread is a discussion related to the 2009 announcement that the about to be rebuilt 11th Street bridge complex would be changed from I-295 to I-695.

[mrsman]

^^^

Another option for DDOT is to take the approach VDOT does with the wrong-way portions of I-295 & I-64 and just omit signing cardinal directions - instead, go with "I-395 TO I-295/DC 295" and "I-395 Downtown". (Not unlike how it's currently done for I-695...Now that I think about it, the existing signs for I-695 at both termini already omit cardinal directions, so I wouldn't be surprised if DDOT just continues that precedent.)

That should work fine, but it is important to include as many relevant controls as possible.  Baltimore, Annapolis, Downtown DC, Richmond, Anacostia, National Harbor, and Alexandria are all relevant controls that may be useful to denote different directions along this key stretch of highway between the 11th st bridge and the 14th st bridge.

[vdeane]

I believe we’ve come full circle. I found some early 60’s freeway proposal maps and was going to post them, but figured first I’d see if they were already here. First page of this thread is a discussion related to the 2009 announcement that the about to be rebuilt 11th Street bridge complex would be changed from I-295 to I-695.

Wouldn't full circle be them redesignating the bridge again from I-395 back to I-295?

[1995hoo]

The Roosevelt Bridge, Memorial Bridge, and the 14th Street Bridge will be closed from Tuesday through Thursday. Oddly, however, the local media keep adding "the Interstate 395 Bridge" to that list tonight. I’m utterly baffled as to why local TV channels seem not to understand where and what the 14th Street Bridge is.

[cpzilliacus]

The Roosevelt Bridge, Memorial Bridge, and the 14th Street Bridge will be closed from Tuesday through Thursday. Oddly, however, the local media keep adding "the Interstate 395 Bridge" to that list tonight. I’m utterly baffled as to why local TV channels seem not to understand where and what the 14th Street Bridge is.

Official VDOT press release: 
Virginia Interstate and Bridge Closures in Advance of Presidential Inauguration