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Author Topic: New York State Thruway  (Read 346757 times)

webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2075 on: November 18, 2020, 09:48:16 AM »

Re: the Golden Gate Bridge, I maintain that they're leaving those booths to meter traffic as much as anything.

... which is ultimately what's been happening at Thruway Exit 45 until now. They might as well leave those booths there unless they're prepared to widen the I-490 EB to Thruway EB ramp.
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MASTERNC

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2076 on: November 18, 2020, 09:51:34 AM »

Maryland is demolishing the Hatem Bridge plaza right now. Unlike PA, they accelerated their timeline for everything and want to remove the booths as soon as possible.

Hatem and Key Bridge toll plaza removals were also planned pre-COVID.  If they start removing the booths at the tunnels and I-95, it's a different story.
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D-Dey65

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2077 on: November 18, 2020, 10:29:45 AM »

Maryland is demolishing the Hatem Bridge plaza right now. Unlike PA, they accelerated their timeline for everything and want to remove the booths as soon as possible.

The Hatem Bridge is unusual in that it allows restricted bicycle traffic but they still forced the cyclists to pay the $8 toll. Since that is going AET, are cyclists still getting tolled?
If they are, I hope they start charging a lot less. Still, I'm disappointed I never took any pictures of the toll plaza.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2078 on: November 18, 2020, 12:44:12 PM »

As of noon today, exit 24 still had all the booths - but there were some orange lane control signs for westbound traffic and an excavator moved from the shoulder to position few feet away from booths. I would bet on at least some booths demolished by the end of the day.   
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2079 on: November 18, 2020, 11:43:21 PM »

Re: the Golden Gate Bridge, I maintain that they're leaving those booths to meter traffic as much as anything.

... which is ultimately what's been happening at Thruway Exit 45 until now. They might as well leave those booths there unless they're prepared to widen the I-490 EB to Thruway EB ramp.

I wonder if there's a chance to segregate EB and WB Thruway traffic in advance of the booths? Really, this would be helpful at any of the trumpet interchanges, so there isn't as much jockeying for position in the short distance between the booths and the ramps.
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2080 on: November 19, 2020, 08:05:08 AM »

Re: the Golden Gate Bridge, I maintain that they're leaving those booths to meter traffic as much as anything.

... which is ultimately what's been happening at Thruway Exit 45 until now. They might as well leave those booths there unless they're prepared to widen the I-490 EB to Thruway EB ramp.

I wonder if there's a chance to segregate EB and WB Thruway traffic in advance of the booths? Really, this would be helpful at any of the trumpet interchanges, so there isn't as much jockeying for position in the short distance between the booths and the ramps.

Interesting. I can think of several locations where that could work nicely (Exit 44, for example), but the termini of I-490 aren't among them because of the close proximity of Exits 1 and 29, respectively.
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2081 on: November 19, 2020, 08:13:38 AM »

Another exit I haven't heard much about is 31 (Utica). Personally, I'd love to see the trumpet torn down completely and replaced with slip ramps to/from the west (near where NY 49 splits off), and to/from the east (near Leland Ave).
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RobbieL2415

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2082 on: November 19, 2020, 08:41:22 AM »

Why does Exit 45 advance signage not mention NY 96? Will it mention it once the toll plazas are removed?
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Jim

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2083 on: November 19, 2020, 11:23:06 AM »

As of noon today, exit 24 still had all the booths - but there were some orange lane control signs for westbound traffic and an excavator moved from the shoulder to position few feet away from booths. I would bet on at least some booths demolished by the end of the day.

Sure enough, I just went through the 24 tolls and the 3 rightmost booths on the westbound direction are gone.  The removed booths themselves are lined up on the shoulder, a pretty odd sight.  It also looked like paving work was underway in the area of the removed booths, so I expect WB traffic to be moved over there soon and demolition will continue.

I've been taking lots of pictures over the last few weeks as I drive through, and hope to pull them off the camera some time soon.  Unfortunately, these have all been solo commuting trips so I'm not expecting a ton of good quality.
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jwags

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2084 on: November 19, 2020, 11:54:58 AM »

I found this page very interesting. It describes the new tolling segments in detail. I understand they did this to allow for interchange expansion but overall it seems like a strange implementation. It shows in the toll schedule that most of the mainline gantry's charge tolls that are less than $0.25. Almost seems not worth the construction cost. Seems reminiscent of the $0.10 tolls that RI used to charge on the Sakonnet river bridge.

http://www.thruway.ny.gov/cashless/billing-segments.html
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lstone19

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2085 on: November 19, 2020, 12:28:11 PM »

I found this page very interesting. It describes the new tolling segments in detail. I understand they did this to allow for interchange expansion but overall it seems like a strange implementation. It shows in the toll schedule that most of the mainline gantry's charge tolls that are less than $0.25. Almost seems not worth the construction cost. Seems reminiscent of the $0.10 tolls that RI used to charge on the Sakonnet river bridge.

What I find odd is the back-to-back virtual ticket sections (VTS) from 36 to 39 and 39 to 44. It allows no ramp gantry at 39 but why the mini 36 to 39 section. That requires one more gantry than if they had just made 36 to 39 more fixed toll highway gantrys. As impletmented, it requires 36/37 (meaning between 36 and 37) and 38/39 highway gantries to start and end the VTS and ramp gantries at 37 and 38. Had they just gone with more fixed toll gantries, the 36/37 and 38/39 gantries become fixed toll gantries and the 37 and 38 ramp gantries would be replaced with a single 37/38 fixed toll highway gantry.

New toll schedules can be found at http://www.thruway.ny.gov/travelers/tolls/schedules/index.html. Gotta love the $0.04 toll to go between 36 and 37.
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vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2086 on: November 19, 2020, 01:10:32 PM »

I found this page very interesting. It describes the new tolling segments in detail. I understand they did this to allow for interchange expansion but overall it seems like a strange implementation. It shows in the toll schedule that most of the mainline gantry's charge tolls that are less than $0.25. Almost seems not worth the construction cost. Seems reminiscent of the $0.10 tolls that RI used to charge on the Sakonnet river bridge.

http://www.thruway.ny.gov/cashless/billing-segments.html
Yeah, seriously.  I understand the physical implementation, but why not have the computer process it as once charge like the MassPike did?  Or, if they insist on blowing up everyone's statements, at least give the gantries names to be consistent with the rest of the system!  This is literally the stupidest possible way to implement the billing.

Another exit I haven't heard much about is 31 (Utica). Personally, I'd love to see the trumpet torn down completely and replaced with slip ramps to/from the west (near where NY 49 splits off), and to/from the east (near Leland Ave).
I'd love to see something like that, but it would need some reconfiguration to maintain local access to/from Genesee Street.

Re: the Golden Gate Bridge, I maintain that they're leaving those booths to meter traffic as much as anything.

... which is ultimately what's been happening at Thruway Exit 45 until now. They might as well leave those booths there unless they're prepared to widen the I-490 EB to Thruway EB ramp.

I wonder if there's a chance to segregate EB and WB Thruway traffic in advance of the booths? Really, this would be helpful at any of the trumpet interchanges, so there isn't as much jockeying for position in the short distance between the booths and the ramps.

Interesting. I can think of several locations where that could work nicely (Exit 44, for example), but the termini of I-490 aren't among them because of the close proximity of Exits 1 and 29, respectively.
Don't forget the Loomis Road/Gateway Drive RIROs.  And in any case, would such be needed after the booths are demolished?  And you'd have to put up temporary signs... seems like more trouble than it's worth, to me.
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lstone19

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2087 on: November 19, 2020, 01:43:43 PM »

Yeah, seriously.  I understand the physical implementation, but why not have the computer process it as once charge like the MassPike did?  Or, if they insist on blowing up everyone's statements, at least give the gantries names to be consistent with the rest of the system!  This is literally the stupidest possible way to implement the billing.

Particularly since as near as I can figure out, handling 25A requires some back-office post-processing as there is not a gantry at 25A for them to directly determine who entered or exited at 25A. I'm assuming it will work something like this:
- Scanned at the 24/25 gantry and charged.
- Scanned at the 25/25A gantry and charged.
- After some reasonable period of time, if not scanned at the 25A/26 gantry (start of the 25A to 34A VTS), assume car exited at 25A and refund the 24/25 and 25/25A tolls.

Even if entering at 25A, you'll probably be initially charged and then refunded as a delay in receiving a transaction from another gantry (it happens, at least here in Illinois), could cause the transactions to be received out of order. If that happens, just because the first scan received by the master system was just after 25A doesn't mean a before 25A scan isn't coming.

Anyway, due to the 25A issue, the system needs to put the scans together to determine where a car initially entered and finally left so why not put that altogether into one toll transaction on your statement.
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2088 on: November 19, 2020, 02:47:49 PM »

I wonder if there's a chance to segregate EB and WB Thruway traffic in advance of the booths? Really, this would be helpful at any of the trumpet interchanges, so there isn't as much jockeying for position in the short distance between the booths and the ramps.
Interesting. I can think of several locations where that could work nicely (Exit 44, for example), but the termini of I-490 aren't among them because of the close proximity of Exits 1 and 29, respectively.
Don't forget the Loomis Road/Gateway Drive RIROs.  And in any case, would such be needed after the booths are demolished?  And you'd have to put up temporary signs... seems like more trouble than it's worth, to me.

Both good points, and I had actually forgotten that the Exit 44 entrance is only one lane anyways... so there wouldn't be much point there.

Exit 25A might be a better example of where pre-segregation could work, obviously in a theoretical world in which the booths weren't coming down.
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cl94

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2089 on: November 19, 2020, 05:11:52 PM »

Drove through 24 about 45 minutes ago. 3-4 booths are down.

As far as 17, currently set up as 3 lanes through the middle for traffic to/from 84/300, with traffic entering the Thruway from the tandem lot/offices/NYSP barracks using the rightmost booth on the entry side.

No real work at B1 or B2 yet, but those are not a priority. One of our fellow members informed me earlier that B3 demolition is ongoing (night work) and should be complete by Thanksgiving.

Outside of my area, 50 might be down by the weekend, with that crew moving to 55 next week to get that done before the holiday.
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MASTERNC

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2090 on: November 19, 2020, 08:07:26 PM »

Drove through 24 about 45 minutes ago. 3-4 booths are down.

As far as 17, currently set up as 3 lanes through the middle for traffic to/from 84/300, with traffic entering the Thruway from the tandem lot/offices/NYSP barracks using the rightmost booth on the entry side.

No real work at B1 or B2 yet, but those are not a priority. One of our fellow members informed me earlier that B3 demolition is ongoing (night work) and should be complete by Thanksgiving.

Outside of my area, 50 might be down by the weekend, with that crew moving to 55 next week to get that done before the holiday.

You would be right about 50

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vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2091 on: November 19, 2020, 08:22:32 PM »

I wonder why the Thruway doesn't have a "Project Map - Phase II" for booth removal on their site like they had "Project Map - Phase I" for gantry installation.
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2092 on: November 19, 2020, 10:41:12 PM »

Outside of my area, 50 might be down by the weekend, with that crew moving to 55 next week to get that done before the holiday.

You would be right about 50

[tweet snipped]

Exciting! That Williamsville Barrier is the single one I was most excited about seeing removed. :cheers:
I can't wait to drive through there with the booths gone. It will be interesting to see how the signage and lane configurations for Exit 50 are handled. I'd like to see six lanes extended to Exit 49, but I'm not holding my breath, at least for now.
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GenExpwy

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2093 on: November 20, 2020, 02:49:20 AM »

Yeah, seriously.  I understand the physical implementation, but why not have the computer process it as once charge like the MassPike did?  Or, if they insist on blowing up everyone's statements, at least give the gantries names to be consistent with the rest of the system!  This is literally the stupidest possible way to implement the billing.

Particularly since as near as I can figure out, handling 25A requires some back-office post-processing as there is not a gantry at 25A for them to directly determine who entered or exited at 25A. I'm assuming it will work something like this:
- Scanned at the 24/25 gantry and charged.
- Scanned at the 25/25A gantry and charged.
- After some reasonable period of time, if not scanned at the 25A/26 gantry (start of the 25A to 34A VTS), assume car exited at 25A and refund the 24/25 and 25/25A tolls.

Even if entering at 25A, you'll probably be initially charged and then refunded as a delay in receiving a transaction from another gantry (it happens, at least here in Illinois), could cause the transactions to be received out of order. If that happens, just because the first scan received by the master system was just after 25A doesn't mean a before 25A scan isn't coming.

Anyway, due to the 25A issue, the system needs to put the scans together to determine where a car initially entered and finally left so why not put that altogether into one toll transaction on your statement.

I can think of another complication there: the gantry between 25 and 24 is east of the Guilderland (eastbound) Service Area. Consider this scenario:

• Alice enters at 25A, exits at 25, does some business in Schenectady, re-enters at 25, and exits at 24.

• Bob enters at 25A, has a leisurely lunch at the Service Area, and exits at 24.

As I understand it, Alice should not be charged for the 25A to 25 trip, and should be charged for the separate 25 to 24 trip; while Bob’s trip should be completely free no matter how slowly he ate his McNuggets. But how would the mainline gantries tell them apart?
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webny99

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2094 on: November 20, 2020, 08:19:41 AM »

Definitely an interesting situation there, but I guess it depends on the specifics of the timing.

Say they build in an extra hour, to account for people stopping at the service area. If Bob takes more than an hour at the service area, he gets charged for 25 to 24. If Alice can do her stops in Schenectady and get back on in less than an hour, she gets to go from 25 to 24 for free. Either way, it's tough to imagine that comes into play more than a handful of times per day, if even that.
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lstone19

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2095 on: November 20, 2020, 08:35:12 AM »

Definitely an interesting situation there, but I guess it depends on the specifics of the timing.

Say they build in an extra hour, to account for people stopping at the service area. If Bob takes more than an hour at the service area, he gets charged for 25 to 24. If Alice can do her stops in Schenectady and get back on in less than an hour, she gets to go from 25 to 24 for free. Either way, it's tough to imagine that comes into play more than a handful of times per day, if even that.

And I'm sure there are some cheap people who would exit at 25A, make a U-turn at the first exit, and get right back on to get a free ride between 24 and 26. That won't work with time being used to indirectly determine who entered or exited at 25A.

Similar with timing being used to make assumptions about what you did, here in Chicago, I've had CTA's (transit) fare collection system assume a transfer where I actually had ridden A to B, done my business at B, and re-entered to return to A. Should have been two fares but I got away with a one fare plus a transfer.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 08:39:47 AM by lstone19 »
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MASTERNC

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2096 on: November 20, 2020, 08:41:53 AM »

Outside of my area, 50 might be down by the weekend, with that crew moving to 55 next week to get that done before the holiday.

You would be right about 50

[tweet snipped]

Exciting! That Williamsville Barrier is the single one I was most excited about seeing removed. :cheers:
I can't wait to drive through there with the booths gone. It will be interesting to see how the signage and lane configurations for Exit 50 are handled. I'd like to see six lanes extended to Exit 49, but I'm not holding my breath, at least for now.

This might give you an idea of lane configurations right now

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kalvado

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2097 on: November 20, 2020, 11:26:44 AM »

Definitely an interesting situation there, but I guess it depends on the specifics of the timing.

Say they build in an extra hour, to account for people stopping at the service area. If Bob takes more than an hour at the service area, he gets charged for 25 to 24. If Alice can do her stops in Schenectady and get back on in less than an hour, she gets to go from 25 to 24 for free. Either way, it's tough to imagine that comes into play more than a handful of times per day, if even that.
With Thruway, there is an easier way to deal with the issue - "submit your claim in writing via USPS". Cost of a stamp outweighs extra toll by a lot... 
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cl94

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2098 on: November 20, 2020, 11:31:13 AM »

I can think of another complication there: the gantry between 25 and 24 is east of the Guilderland (eastbound) Service Area. Consider this scenario:

• Alice enters at 25A, exits at 25, does some business in Schenectady, re-enters at 25, and exits at 24.

• Bob enters at 25A, has a leisurely lunch at the Service Area, and exits at 24.

As I understand it, Alice should not be charged for the 25A to 25 trip, and should be charged for the separate 25 to 24 trip; while Bob’s trip should be completely free no matter how slowly he ate his McNuggets. But how would the mainline gantries tell them apart?

It won't. Service areas allow 4 hour parking, so they would theoretically need to allow travel time between gantries + 4 hours for free passage.

And I'm sure there are some cheap people who would exit at 25A, make a U-turn at the first exit, and get right back on to get a free ride between 24 and 26. That won't work with time being used to indirectly determine who entered or exited at 25A.

I mean, I've planned gas stops for the truck stop at 25A to get a free ride (or at least a partial free ride). Totally legitimate and something a not-insignificant amount of people do.
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Jim

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #2099 on: November 20, 2020, 11:38:04 AM »

I've also hopped on and off at various exits for whatever purpose and enjoyed the benefit that my commuter plan's "first 30 miles" would reset and reduce my toll.  I guess that won't work anymore within segments with the mainline tolls instead of ramp tolls.
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