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Author Topic: I-69 Ohio River Bridge  (Read 279012 times)

tdindy88

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1000 on: May 15, 2020, 08:07:48 PM »

I still don't get that giant loop from Veterans Memorial Parkway to I-69 north. Considering the stoplights along the Lloyd Expressway I would guess that quite a few people from the Newburgh area use the Veterans and I-69 routing to get home every day from Downtown Evansville. This project would ensure that they must do some giant loop because we can't design the interchange any better?
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1001 on: May 15, 2020, 08:51:48 PM »

^^^^^^^^^
Thanks!  Most legible & straightforward map of the project I've seen to date!  I take it the double white lines over the swampy area north of the main span indicate an additional bridge structure as well.
Correct, most of the terrain on the Indiana approach would be too marshy to fill in and has to be bridged over.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1002 on: May 15, 2020, 08:52:36 PM »

I still don't get that giant loop from Veterans Memorial Parkway to I-69 north. Considering the stoplights along the Lloyd Expressway I would guess that quite a few people from the Newburgh area use the Veterans and I-69 routing to get home every day from Downtown Evansville. This project would ensure that they must do some giant loop because we can't design the interchange any better?
Likely wetland issues including with Eagle Creek.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1003 on: May 15, 2020, 08:55:22 PM »

Posting the map from that video...

https://i69ohiorivercrossing.com/updated-maps/deis-maps/
Have they made a decision regarding tolling? Will the existing US-41 bridge continue to be toll-free or would it be tolled under the current plan? Will the new segment of I-69 between the Parkway and US-60 interchange will be apart of the toll, or does the toll only apply to people crossing the new bridge?
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vdeane

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1004 on: May 15, 2020, 09:16:37 PM »

IMO they should put US 41 back on its old alignment.  It currently makes a needless jog for no reason.  Google never even acknowledged the change.
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Revive 755

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1005 on: May 15, 2020, 10:50:18 PM »

I still don't get that giant loop from Veterans Memorial Parkway to I-69 north. Considering the stoplights along the Lloyd Expressway I would guess that quite a few people from the Newburgh area use the Veterans and I-69 routing to get home every day from Downtown Evansville. This project would ensure that they must do some giant loop because we can't design the interchange any better?
Likely wetland issues including with Eagle Creek.

Without more data, it looks to me more like a certain DOT is too cheap to go for a three level interchange.
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ITB

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1006 on: May 15, 2020, 11:22:56 PM »

Posting the map from that video...

https://i69ohiorivercrossing.com/updated-maps/deis-maps/
Have they made a decision regarding tolling? Will the existing US-41 bridge continue to be toll-free or would it be tolled under the current plan? Will the new segment of I-69 between the Parkway and US-60 interchange will be apart of the toll, or does the toll only apply to people crossing the new bridge?

No decision as yet regarding tolling. As is generally known, there are currently two options under consideration: Central Alternative 1A and Central Alternative 1B. The first is to toll both the new I-69 bridge and the remaining US-41 bridge, while the second is to toll only the new I-69 bridge. At this time, there is no timeline when the "single preferred alternative" will be selected, and thus the tolling option. The decision is expected to be included as part of the FEIS. However, due to the COVID-19 situation, the FEIS timeline is currently unclear.

Link: ORX Crossing Central Alternatives 1A and 1B: https://i69ohiorivercrossing.com/central-alternative-1-is-the-preferred-route-for-i-69-orx/
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abqtraveler

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1007 on: May 21, 2020, 10:05:12 AM »

Posting the map from that video...

https://i69ohiorivercrossing.com/updated-maps/deis-maps/
Have they made a decision regarding tolling? Will the existing US-41 bridge continue to be toll-free or would it be tolled under the current plan? Will the new segment of I-69 between the Parkway and US-60 interchange will be apart of the toll, or does the toll only apply to people crossing the new bridge?

No decision as yet regarding tolling. As is generally known, there are currently two options under consideration: Central Alternative 1A and Central Alternative 1B. The first is to toll both the new I-69 bridge and the remaining US-41 bridge, while the second is to toll only the new I-69 bridge. At this time, there is no timeline when the "single preferred alternative" will be selected, and thus the tolling option. The decision is expected to be included as part of the FEIS. However, due to the COVID-19 situation, the FEIS timeline is currently unclear.

Link: ORX Crossing Central Alternatives 1A and 1B: https://i69ohiorivercrossing.com/central-alternative-1-is-the-preferred-route-for-i-69-orx/

This is the biggest sticking point to moving forward with the I-69 ORX. There is a lot of local opposition to 1) removing one of the US-41 bridges, and 2) tolling the remaining US-41 bridge. Officials has argued it wouldn't be financially viable to keep both US-41 bridges with or without tolling.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1008 on: June 05, 2020, 09:35:30 PM »

I'll accept tolls for a less-shitty interchange with the existing freeway on the Indiana side.
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compdude787

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1009 on: June 09, 2020, 02:32:17 AM »

I'll accept tolls for a less-shitty interchange with the existing freeway on the Indiana side.

I'm amazed they didn't make a directional-T interchange. Would have been worth the extra expense.

abqtraveler

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1010 on: June 09, 2020, 09:46:49 AM »

I'll accept tolls for a less-shitty interchange with the existing freeway on the Indiana side.

I'm amazed they didn't make a directional-T interchange. Would have been worth the extra expense.

When INDOT built I-164 some 30 years ago, they probably weren't thinking that it would become part of the I-69 extension. At the time a cloverleaf interchange with US-41 and Veterans Boulevard made sense, as I-164 was to end there with no continuation or extension of the freeway planned.
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royo6022

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1011 on: June 09, 2020, 03:35:40 PM »

Yeah you can tell by the way it curves up into the city instead of cutting through the side and shooting down toward the river again, it's almost inconvenient to use the southern half of it unless you're leaving the city entirely
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ilpt4u

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1012 on: June 09, 2020, 04:30:31 PM »

Yeah you can tell by the way it curves up into the city instead of cutting through the side and shooting down toward the river again, it's almost inconvenient to use the southern half of it unless you're leaving the city entirely
Why would Local Traffic use the Bypass when there is the Lloyd? Sure it is not fully grade separated but it's a solid route for in-town Evansville E-W traffic
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edwaleni

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1013 on: June 10, 2020, 11:25:29 AM »

When I-164 was designed, it was to take N/S passthrough traffic on US-41 out of central Evansville.

Specifically hazmat materials traveling by truck.

Even today the City of Evansville has a stringent hazmat law that even railroads are required to follow.

I know a retired CSX dispatcher who used to get into big arguments with the dispatchers in Chicago because they kept trying to send HC down through Evansville.

The cars had to be set aside at the yard north of town for a northbound to pick them up to be switched out at Terre Haute so they could route through Cincy.

It was a real pain.





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hbelkins

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1014 on: June 10, 2020, 02:02:24 PM »

When I-164 was designed, it was to take N/S passthrough traffic on US-41 out of central Evansville.

Specifically hazmat materials traveling by truck.

Even today the City of Evansville has a stringent hazmat law that even railroads are required to follow.

I know a retired CSX dispatcher who used to get into big arguments with the dispatchers in Chicago because they kept trying to send HC down through Evansville.

The cars had to be set aside at the yard north of town for a northbound to pick them up to be switched out at Terre Haute so they could route through Cincy.

It was a real pain.

That's interesting. I didn't realize that local governments could regulate railroads. We had a court case here in Kentucky were local law enforcement officers were citing railroads for blocking crossings for more than a minimum period of time. Those citations got thrown out because the railroads are federally regulated and it was ruled that local agencies didn't have the authority. The case involved Norfolk Southern and, I think, Pulaski County.

Addendum: Yep, Pulaski and McCreary counties. Story at https://www.somerset-kentucky.com/news/federal-judge-sides-with-railroads-in-case-of-trains-blocking-road-crossings/article_6e7e446a-43a8-11ea-a6c0-631dbf777ee8.html. Additional info and background at http://tinyurl.com/y92jvctq.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 02:05:11 PM by hbelkins »
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civeng

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1015 on: June 10, 2020, 02:32:34 PM »

Why would Local Traffic use the Bypass when there is the Lloyd? Sure it is not fully grade separated but it's a solid route for in-town Evansville E-W traffic

Many headed between downtown and the far east side or Newburgh use the bypass, especially when the Lloyd is congested during rush hours.
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edwaleni

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1016 on: June 11, 2020, 10:00:30 AM »

When I-164 was designed, it was to take N/S passthrough traffic on US-41 out of central Evansville.

Specifically hazmat materials traveling by truck.

Even today the City of Evansville has a stringent hazmat law that even railroads are required to follow.

I know a retired CSX dispatcher who used to get into big arguments with the dispatchers in Chicago because they kept trying to send HC down through Evansville.

The cars had to be set aside at the yard north of town for a northbound to pick them up to be switched out at Terre Haute so they could route through Cincy.

It was a real pain.

That's interesting. I didn't realize that local governments could regulate railroads. We had a court case here in Kentucky were local law enforcement officers were citing railroads for blocking crossings for more than a minimum period of time. Those citations got thrown out because the railroads are federally regulated and it was ruled that local agencies didn't have the authority. The case involved Norfolk Southern and, I think, Pulaski County.

Addendum: Yep, Pulaski and McCreary counties. Story at https://www.somerset-kentucky.com/news/federal-judge-sides-with-railroads-in-case-of-trains-blocking-road-crossings/article_6e7e446a-43a8-11ea-a6c0-631dbf777ee8.html. Additional info and background at http://tinyurl.com/y92jvctq.

I agree. The argument on the west coast on where oil or coal can be transported is a classic case of STB overruling local authority.

He is quite old now, but if I run into that dispatcher again I will ask him about that. It might have been for other issues, he told me no HC could go through Evansville.

There may have been other reasons, like the bridge over the Ohio, neighborhoods the ROW ran through, an agreement between the City and the predecessor railroad due to an accident in some ancient past that was grandfathered forward.

Today most of the HC related plants are in Mt Vernon to the west or over in Newburgh to the east.

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mvak36

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1017 on: June 11, 2020, 11:06:29 AM »

Received an email from the project site. Of interest to me was the end of the email.

Quote
The I-69 Ohio River Crossing (I-69 ORX) project offices are consolidating to a single location in Henderson. Both offices have been closed during the COVID-19 pandemic. The Evansville office will not reopen. When conditions allow, the Henderson office will reopen by appointment only. No date has been set.

The Project Team is continuing its work, and Indiana and Kentucky are committed to the project, an important final piece of the I-69 improvements in both states.

Residents can continue to share their comments and questions by phone, email and mail. The email address is info@I69OhioRiverCrossing.com and the project phone number is (888) 515-9756. Mail can continue to be directed to the Henderson project office: 1970 Barrett Ct., Suite 100, Henderson, KY 42420.

The Project Team continues to work toward the selection of a preferred alternative and the development of the Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) and Record of Decision (ROD) and expects to publish the FEIS later this year or in early 2021. When the FEIS is published, open office hours or community meetings will be scheduled in both Evansville and Henderson.

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mrsman

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1018 on: June 12, 2020, 05:43:06 PM »

I'm sorry if this was addressed upthread, but is there a reason why the US 41 bridge will be demoted from 4 lane to 2 lane for this project?
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zzcarp

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1019 on: June 12, 2020, 06:30:17 PM »

I'm sorry if this was addressed upthread, but is there a reason why the US 41 bridge will be demoted from 4 lane to 2 lane for this project?

From their FAQ:

Quote
Why is the future of the US 41 bridges being discussed as part of this project?
Improving long-term cross-river mobility between Evansville and Henderson must include a discussion of the US 41 bridges. One bridge is more than 80 years old and the other is more than 50 years old, and maintenance costs are high. Indiana and Kentucky have spent more than $50 million on maintenance costs on the US 41 bridges since 2005. A report on the US 41 bridges finds it would cost an estimated $293 million to maintain the two bridges through 2062.

Under Central Alternatives 1A or 1B, which US 41 bridge would remain in service?
Due to its historic significance and serviceable condition, the northbound US 41 will be retained for two-way traffic.

What will happen to the southbound US 41 bridge that is removed from service?
A marketing plan will be undertaken to determine if there is any group or agency that would be willing and able to maintain and preserve the bridge. If there are no such groups or agencies found, the bridge would be demolished after construction of an I-69 bridge.
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2trailertrucker

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1020 on: June 14, 2020, 04:00:34 AM »

When I-164 was designed, it was to take N/S passthrough traffic on US-41 out of central Evansville.

Specifically hazmat materials traveling by truck.

Even today the City of Evansville has a stringent hazmat law that even railroads are required to follow.

I know a retired CSX dispatcher who used to get into big arguments with the dispatchers in Chicago because they kept trying to send HC down through Evansville.

The cars had to be set aside at the yard north of town for a northbound to pick them up to be switched out at Terre Haute so they could route through Cincy.

It was a real pain.

That's interesting. I didn't realize that local governments could regulate railroads. We had a court case here in Kentucky were local law enforcement officers were citing railroads for blocking crossings for more than a minimum period of time. Those citations got thrown out because the railroads are federally regulated and it was ruled that local agencies didn't have the authority. The case involved Norfolk Southern and, I think, Pulaski County.

Addendum: Yep, Pulaski and McCreary counties. Story at https://www.somerset-kentucky.com/news/federal-judge-sides-with-railroads-in-case-of-trains-blocking-road-crossings/article_6e7e446a-43a8-11ea-a6c0-631dbf777ee8.html. Additional info and background at http://tinyurl.com/y92jvctq.

I agree. The argument on the west coast on where oil or coal can be transported is a classic case of STB overruling local authority.

He is quite old now, but if I run into that dispatcher again I will ask him about that. It might have been for other issues, he told me no HC could go through Evansville.

There may have been other reasons, like the bridge over the Ohio, neighborhoods the ROW ran through, an agreement between the City and the predecessor railroad due to an accident in some ancient past that was grandfathered forward.

Today most of the HC related plants are in Mt Vernon to the west or over in Newburgh to the east.

Trucks going though Evansville  are not prohibited from going through town with hazmat. That being said, the railroad tracks and the stop lights make taking I-69 to I-64 and back to US 41 an alternative.
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Captain Jack

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1021 on: June 14, 2020, 01:04:52 PM »

Yeah you can tell by the way it curves up into the city instead of cutting through the side and shooting down toward the river again, it's almost inconvenient to use the southern half of it unless you're leaving the city entirely
Why would Local Traffic use the Bypass when there is the Lloyd? Sure it is not fully grade separated but it's a solid route for in-town Evansville E-W traffic

Living in Newburgh, I can tell you just about every trip I take downtown or to points west of downtown Evansville, I take the southern leg of I-69 and Veterans Parkway, even if it is to utilize the Lloyd west of downtown.

The Lloyd between 69 and Vann Avenue can be a complete cluster with all the commercial development and lights. During afternoon rush, you can see a lot of cars backed up on 69 from the eastbound exit ramp to SR-662. A situation that is only to get much worse with the recent "road diet" INDOT put on SR-662. Insanity, but deserves its own thread.
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JMoses24

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1022 on: June 28, 2020, 02:11:11 PM »

When I-164 was designed, it was to take N/S passthrough traffic on US-41 out of central Evansville.

Specifically hazmat materials traveling by truck.

Even today the City of Evansville has a stringent hazmat law that even railroads are required to follow.

I know a retired CSX dispatcher who used to get into big arguments with the dispatchers in Chicago because they kept trying to send HC down through Evansville.

The cars had to be set aside at the yard north of town for a northbound to pick them up to be switched out at Terre Haute so they could route through Cincy.

It was a real pain.

That's interesting. I didn't realize that local governments could regulate railroads. We had a court case here in Kentucky were local law enforcement officers were citing railroads for blocking crossings for more than a minimum period of time. Those citations got thrown out because the railroads are federally regulated and it was ruled that local agencies didn't have the authority. The case involved Norfolk Southern and, I think, Pulaski County.

Addendum: Yep, Pulaski and McCreary counties. Story at https://www.somerset-kentucky.com/news/federal-judge-sides-with-railroads-in-case-of-trains-blocking-road-crossings/article_6e7e446a-43a8-11ea-a6c0-631dbf777ee8.html. Additional info and background at http://tinyurl.com/y92jvctq.

Same thing happened with Oklahoma. A state law to prohibit trains from blocking railroad crossings has been challenged by the railroads.

https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/lawsuit-challenges-new-oklahoma-law-prohibiting-trains-from-blocking-railroad-crossings
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Captain Jack

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1023 on: July 01, 2020, 05:07:07 PM »

I'm sorry if this was addressed upthread, but is there a reason why the US 41 bridge will be demoted from 4 lane to 2 lane for this project?

From their FAQ:

Quote
Why is the future of the US 41 bridges being discussed as part of this project?
Improving long-term cross-river mobility between Evansville and Henderson must include a discussion of the US 41 bridges. One bridge is more than 80 years old and the other is more than 50 years old, and maintenance costs are high. Indiana and Kentucky have spent more than $50 million on maintenance costs on the US 41 bridges since 2005. A report on the US 41 bridges finds it would cost an estimated $293 million to maintain the two bridges through 2062.

Under Central Alternatives 1A or 1B, which US 41 bridge would remain in service?
Due to its historic significance and serviceable condition, the northbound US 41 will be retained for two-way traffic.

What will happen to the southbound US 41 bridge that is removed from service?
A marketing plan will be undertaken to determine if there is any group or agency that would be willing and able to maintain and preserve the bridge. If there are no such groups or agencies found, the bridge would be demolished after construction of an I-69 bridge.

I love historical significance as much as the next guy, but it makes absolutely no sense to keep the northbound bridge. Not only is the southbound one 30+ years newer, it is noticibly wider.
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Revive 755

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Re: I-69 Ohio River Bridge
« Reply #1024 on: July 01, 2020, 10:34:30 PM »

^ Plus to most people the design does not differ that much between the NB and SB bridges.  It would be different if the SB bridge was a tied arch instead of a very similar truss design.
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